Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

sydthebeat

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

That would be a much better argument if the judgement came 2 weeks earlier (before the return of the world cup winners).

meh, makes no difference in my eyes.....

i dont see why the requirement for saracens to be within the salary cap THIS season was something that PRL, in their sanction, should have had to try to take into account in their requirements.

remember, Saracens had been under the spot light re the salary cap, and in communication with PRLs salary cap manager since the end of LAST season, and had admitted even back then that they had been some "oversights" even back in april 2019.

they hadnt disclosed the co-investments until the end of last season.

so even if sarries had to play academy guys to stay under the salary cap THIS season, then should have opted to.

lawrencesummers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Deleted User wrote: »

I completely agree that Saracens were put in an impossible situation. Especially since any contracts broken with players would also count towards the salary cap. The simple response to this argument is they shouldn't have broke the rules in the first place.

The PRL can’t come out of this without making changes. While sarries broke the rules it should have been detected, sanctioned and resolved a lot sooner than The three and a half seasons it took.

If the PRL don’t have the power to demand a forensic audit of a club then they are not fit for purpose.

molloyjh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not sure what else the PRL could have done. This reminds me of that player a few seasons ago who was cited. Pled guilty and got a reduction, then bad mouthed the process online and had the penalty increased subsequently.

Had Sarries immediately taken urgent steps and had been seen to do their best to address the cap issue then some flexibility may have been forthcoming.

They went the total opposite direction however.

This. They claimed publicly to be within the cap this season when the news broke in November. They then were asked to prove it by PRL. They refused to cooperate in doing so and were punished a second time. Had they taken it on the chin and been fully open and honest back in November then the point about them being treated harshly in Jan might stand. I dont think it does now though given their continued lies, lack of contrition and refusal to cooperate in the last month or so.

Trojan

Saracens could have chosen to continue to pay their top players, but not play them, effectively reducing the size of the playing squad for the rest of this season. They could have negotiated that with the PRL salary cap manager and he could have informed the rest of PRL that Saracens were acting in good faith to meet the cap for the current season. This is not rocket science.

Instead, they gave two fingers to the PRL and said "here's your £5M quid, 35 points won't relegate us, we're changing nothing".

prawnsambo

Well that didn't last long. Rats are deserting the sinking ship.

Edit: Well, there may be more than one sinking ship involved here.

thomond2006

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg

thomond2006

Just shut the place down at this stage. A complete embarrassment and shítshow.

Zzippy

Who's next at the bottom of the barrel? Surely has to be Stephen Jones...

prawnsambo

Some of the comments are good.

thegreycity

https://twitter.com/Mark_AFC_Bright/status/1222191374977597442/photo/1

Eod100

Its confirmed that Saracens can only finish 12th. https://twitter.com/alastaireykyn/status/1222225662901211136?s=19

sydthebeat

That makes PRL look really, really bad.

Squidgy Black

https://twitter.com/alastaireykyn/status/1222227994065932289?s=09

That's the amendment to the salary cap regulations.

I dunno I have to admit I'm a bit conflicted, yes the whole Saracens organisation deserve relegation and to be punished severely, but PRL went around this completely arseways. Multiple regulation changes halfway through the season, making one decision and them changing it a few months later, going against their own recommendations.

Eod100

They could have it handled it better but in fairness it is fairly unprecedented. Thought it was automatic relegation in first place. You would fell bit annoyed if you have already played Saracens before all this, their head likely will be gone after this

prawnsambo

Squidgy Black wrote: »

https://twitter.com/alastaireykyn/status/1222227994065932289?s=09

That's the amendment to the salary cap regulations.

I dunno I have to admit I'm a bit conflicted, yes the whole Saracens organisation deserve relegation and to be punished severely, but PRL went around this completely arseways. Multiple regulation changes halfway through the season, making one decision and them changing it a few months later, going against their own recommendations.

It's kind of understandable tbh. They've amended the rules because it was never envisaged that a club, having been found guilty of breaches of the salary cap, would give two fingers to the notion of actually observing it once they'd been found out. And from various sources I've read, they could have agreed with PRL that they would get under the cap this season if they had undertaken not to play certain players for the remainder of the season. Even if that's not the case, a bit of dialogue on how they could become compliant would have gone a long way. Instead of which there was protracted lying about being inside the cap.

thegreycity

It's not really unprecedented. They'd warned Saracens in 2015 originally. How long was this second investigation going on? PRL have made a bags of this.

Quin_Dub

Eod100 wrote: »

They could have it handled it better but in fairness it is fairly unprecedented. Thought it was automatic relegation in first place. You would fell bit annoyed if you have already played Saracens before all this, their head likely will be gone after this

There's certainly an argument to be made about simply nullifying all their results so no-one gains or loses points (or points diff) for any game involving Saracens for the whole season.

Imagine being a team that played a full bore Sarries earlier in the season and lost (or even won narrowly) and then seeing the shambles that shipped a boat load of tries against a fairly mediocre Quins side only to find yourselves missing out on the Top 6 or whatever on Points diff or 2 or 3 league points.

prawnsambo

thegreycity wrote: »

It's not really unprecedented. They'd warned Saracens in 2015 originally. How long was this second investigation going on? PRL have made a bags of this.

The second investigation started before the summer. It concluded in November. Not really sure why you say it's not unprecedented. Yes they were caught before, but it was a minor enough breach and there were other clubs supposedly in the same boat, so it was decided at that time not to make a big thing of it and a warning to all. For them to find subsequently that they were in breach five out of seven seasons and then that; despite protestations to the contrary, they were in breach again this season and wouldn't co-operate. That's unprecedented.

BonnieSituation

Quin_Dub wrote: »

There's certainly an argument to be made about simply nullifying all their results so no-one gains or loses points (or points diff) for any game involving Saracens for the whole season.

Imagine being a team that played a full bore Sarries earlier in the season and lost (or even won narrowly) and then seeing the shambles that shipped a boat load of tries against a fairly mediocre Quins side only to find yourselves missing out on the Top 6 or whatever on Points diff or 2 or 3 league points.

Once it was announced that they were being relegated their results should have been expunged. It's inherently unfair on everyone from earlier in the season. It's a nonsense of a situation.

Squidgy Black

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's kind of understandable tbh. They've amended the rules because it was never envisaged that a club, having been found guilty of breaches of the salary cap, would give two fingers to the notion of actually observing it once they'd been found out. And from various sources I've read, they could have agreed with PRL that they would get under the cap this season if they had undertaken not to play certain players for the remainder of the season. Even if that's not the case, a bit of dialogue on how they could become compliant would have gone a long way. Instead of which there was protracted lying about being inside the cap.

Ah yeah I understand entirely how it's transpired, and they're not wrong it the end-judgement at all, but it probably would've been better if things had been made a bit clearer to fans at the time of the judgement, for example if they had said Sarries are being given the points fine concurrently on the basis that they comply to the salary cap for this season by Christmas (by whatever means) etc and make a public apology acknowledging the breaches and so on.

The media reporting obviously plays a part in this as we've heard numerous accounts of what was going on throughout the ordeal, and I'm sure PRL were thinking more from a legal standpoint in terms of making statements etc, but it's just one big mess.

prawnsambo

Squidgy Black wrote: »

The media reporting obviously plays a part in this as we've heard numerous accounts of what was going on throughout the ordeal, and I'm sure PRL were thinking more from a legal standpoint in terms of making statements etc, but it's just one big mess.

Just on that. PRL said that they had legal letters from Saracens preventing them from releasing the report. Obviously details of player remuneration should remain confidential, but threats didn't help clarify things.

Rattlehead_ie

So hold on......and another 70 points deducted??
Am I reading those reports right? They hardly get carried into Div 1 do they hahaha

BonnieSituation

Rattlehead_ie wrote: »

So hold on......and another 70 points deducted??

And give up their first born

Guy:Incognito

Rattlehead_ie wrote: »

So hold on......and another 70 points deducted??

* Saracens deducted 105 points for breaches to the Salary Cap regulations

Apparently so :pac::pac::pac:

prawnsambo

Rattlehead_ie wrote: »

So hold on......and another 70 points deducted??

It's relegation. 70 points is just a number to ensure they are relegated.

RobbieRuns

I think that part of it is tit for tat stuff. Wray came out with his statement again this week, always says that he was only helping players, looking after them etc....... but always makes PRL look silly. They have the power to keep sanctioning them. One minute they say sorry and then accept the punishment and the next are shouting innocent..... if they accept the punishment then they should just be silent and move on. The media are loving this, fills lots of pages and social media. Sarries need to make plans for the championship and move on. Otherwise they will be down a few more levels if they keep going.

Riskymove

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Once it was announced that they were being relegated their results should have been expunged. It's inherently unfair on everyone from earlier in the season. It's a nonsense of a situation.

I'm not sure about that I mean what is supposed to happen for the rest of the season?

If results wont count why would teams bother playing sarries any further

Quin_Dub

Riskymove wrote: »

I'm not sure about that I mean what is supposed to happen for the rest of the season?

If results wont count why would teams bother playing sarries any further

Well , Yes..

Use the 5M fine to cover any lost gate receipts for the other clubs and give all the players a weekend off.

Any games already complete just get removed from the log.

Riskymove

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Well , Yes..

Use the 5M fine to cover any lost gate receipts for the other clubs and give all the players a weekend off.

Any games already complete just get removed from the log.

so what?.. Sarries squad of players just don't play for 7/8 months?

a little OTT tbh

it is the club rather than players to be punished in my view

Quin_Dub

Riskymove wrote: »

so what?.. Sarries squad of players just don't play for 7/8 months?

a little OTT tbh

it is the club rather than players to be punished in my view

So? - All the games they play for the rest of the year are little more than training sessions or to be used to build a highlight reel for their next contract.

The games are all utterly pointless now

But those teams that played Saracens in the first 9 or 10 rounds of the league will rightly be a bit hacked off that everyone else gets to get 5 points and a Points Diff bump for free..

Other than the Euro QF , Farrell et al probably won't pull on a Saracens jersey again this season..

Shefwedfan

Quin_Dub wrote: »

So? - All the games they play for the rest of the year are little more than training sessions or to be used to build a highlight reel for their next contract.

The games are all utterly pointless now

But those teams that played Saracens in the first 9 or 10 rounds of the league will rightly be a bit hacked off that everyone else gets to get 5 points and a Points Diff bump for free..

Other than the Euro QF , Farrell et al probably won't pull on a Saracens jersey again this season..

Farrell and the rest of the players will want to play. SO I very much doubt they will all be sitting up for the rest of the season

Quin_Dub

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Farrell and the rest of the players will want to play. SO I very much doubt they will all be sitting up for the rest of the season

Perhaps , but they won't play between now and the QF as they'll be with England.

If they lose the QF (which hopefully they will) then at that point there will be about a half dozen league games left , if their Internationals suit up twice in that run of game I'd be surprised.

molloyjh

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Perhaps , but they won't play between now and the QF as they'll be with England.

If they lose the QF (which hopefully they will) then at that point there will be about a half dozen league games left , if their Internationals suit up twice in that run of game I'd be surprised.

Any of the players heading away on the English summer tour will have to play. Other not so much. But Saracens have already pissed off enough fans. Sending out a weak side in front of season ticket holders would be cause them even more hassle. I expect to see them sparingly, but at home a fair amount.

BonnieSituation

Riskymove wrote: »

I'm not sure about that I mean what is supposed to happen for the rest of the season?

If results wont count why would teams bother playing sarries any further

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Well , Yes..

Use the 5M fine to cover any lost gate receipts for the other clubs and give all the players a weekend off.

Any games already complete just get removed from the log.

This is what should have happened.

It makes a mockery of this year's League even more than would have already happened.

Riskymove wrote: »

so what?.. Sarries squad of players just don't play for 7/8 months?

a little OTT tbh

it is the club rather than players to be punished in my view

Quin_Dub wrote: »

So? - All the games they play for the rest of the year are little more than training sessions or to be used to build a highlight reel for their next contract.

The games are all utterly pointless now

But those teams that played Saracens in the first 9 or 10 rounds of the league will rightly be a bit hacked off that everyone else gets to get 5 points and a Points Diff bump for free..

Other than the Euro QF , Farrell et al probably won't pull on a Saracens jersey again this season..

This is the key to the stupidity of the whole situation.

prawnsambo

The money was already shared out to the other clubs. Exeter gave their allocation to charity.

Squidgy Black

There's no precedent to give teams points for games they lost, and I don't think it'd really work.

Melbourne Storm when they breached the cap were not allowed to earn any points for games played, but teams weren't given walkovers and still had to earn points (as there'd be TBP wins up for grabs etc) and could still lose if Storm decided to show up.

There's also the element of national team players, you can't just tell a big cohort of players they're not allowed play for the season, and it'd completely kill Saracens off financially if they had to pay players but got no revenue for ticket sales and potentially losing sponsorship money for the season depending on contracts.

Even if you gave points back to teams, I'm sure there'd also be complaints from teams who played Sarries that teams who haven't already have to play one less game than the rest too.

lawrencesummers

I’m not sure that Nigel Wrey is going to take all this lying down yet, I would be surprised if his solicitors didn’t see an opportunity in the PRL rules (Which look weak) to launch a legal challlenge against the decision that has been made.

Exclamation Marc

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I’m not sure that Nigel Wrey is going to take all this lying down yet, I would be surprised if his solicitors didn’t see an opportunity in the PRL rules (Which look weak) to launch a legal challlenge against the decision that has been made.

Action for what? They had the chance to appeal the deduction and relegation and accepted it. Not much he can personally take action for.

Podge_irl

If you don't use appeal systems in place first, legal challenges tend not to be looked kindly upon. Doubt he would get anywhere.

lawrencesummers

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

Action for what? They had the chance to appeal the deduction and relegation and accepted it. Not much he can personally take action for.

He wouldn’t be the first to take legal action where there is very little chance of winning.

It appears from the outside that the rules which govern the permership are not the most stringent, it’s entirely possible that they could look for a way out of the automatic relegation that has been sanctioned.

Exclamation Marc

lawrencesummers wrote: »

He wouldn’t be the first to take legal action where there is very little chance of winning.

It appears from the outside that the rules which govern the permership are not the most stringent, it’s entirely possible that they could look for a way out of the automatic relegation that has been sanctioned.

He's no longer involved with the club in an official capacity. They've also legally accepted the sanction when they were given a window to appeal. They can't revoke the acceptance, it's not how it works. Even where appeals go the whole way to CAS, they require exhausting the appeals system. Saracens didn't appeal.

So all it leaves is him taking a personal action. But he hasn't been sanctioned as an individual so he's got nothing there either.

lawrencesummers

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

He's no longer involved with the club in an official capacity. They've also legally accepted the sanction when they were given a window to appeal. They can't revoke the acceptance, it's not how it works. Even where appeals go the whole way to CAS, they require exhausting the appeals system. Saracens didn't appeal.

So all it leaves is him taking a personal action. But he hasn't been sanctioned as an individual so he's got nothing there either.

TheY accepted the points deduction, the relegation is what I’m talking about and the procedure through which that was reached, and if you think Nigel Wrey is not involved with Sarries your very naive

Podge_irl

lawrencesummers wrote: »

TheY accepted the points deduction, the relegation is what I’m talking about and the procedure through which that was reached, and if you think Nigel Wrey is not involved with Sarries your very naive

They accepted the relegation. In fact, they chose the relegation from other options.

They don't have a legal leg to stand on if they have not appealed through the PRL system first.

lawrencesummers

Podge_irl wrote: »

They accepted the relegation. In fact, they chose the relegation from other options.

They don't have a legal leg to stand on if they have not appealed through the PRL system first.

“They don’t have legal leg to stand on”

Is that professional opinion as a legally qualified expert who is knowledgable about the rules and regulations of the PRL or just your opinion?


Being given a choice of losing your left or your right testicle doesn’t mean you have to accept either.

Exclamation Marc

lawrencesummers wrote: »

TheY accepted the points deduction, the relegation is what I’m talking about and the procedure through which that was reached, and if you think Nigel Wrey is not involved with Sarries your very naive

I said he's no longer there in an official capacity so he has no footing from a Saracens perspective. Hes of course still involved but his role doesn't carry any weight with the league.

lawrencesummers wrote: »

“They don’t have legal leg to stand on”

Is that professional opinion as a legally qualified expert who is knowledgable about the rules and regulations of the PRL or just your opinion?

It's probably on the accepted and widely known basis that CAS accept appeals only where you've appealed through the official channels. They accepted the sanction, game over.

You can't plead guilty in a trial to an offence, be convicted and appeal the conviction. Very similar to this.

Podge_irl

lawrencesummers wrote: »

“They don’t have legal leg to stand on”

Is that professional opinion as a legally qualified expert who is knowledgable about the rules and regulations of the PRL or just your opinion?


Being given a choice of losing your left or your right testicle doesn’t mean you have to accept either.

The rules and regulations of the PRL are irrelevant. They signed up to them and had the ability to appeal their judgement through systems in place in those rules and regulations. If there is something legally wrong with the rules such a point can generally only be argued after you have appealed it through the systems in place. You can not just run off to the courts the first time something you don't like happens.

Squidgy Black

There's no chance Wray tries to bring this to court, he then runs the risk of a court saying he has to open the books, which was the whole reason they chose to accept the relegation, to stop any further investigation.

Squidgy Black

Squidgy Black wrote: »

There's no chance Wray tries to bring this to court, he then runs the risk of a court saying he has to open the books, which was the whole reason they chose to accept the relegation, to stop any further investigation.

My suspicion is that within their accounts lies a series of other, more serious issues and consequences for those running the club.

aloooof

Deleted User wrote: »

My suspicion is that within their accounts lies a series of other, more serious issues and consequences for those running the club.

The money was just resting in their accounts?

aloooof

aloooof wrote: »

The money was just resting in their accounts?

Nigel Wray has two arses.