Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

vienne86

A bit of a cop out.

AdamD

Really don't think it would be in the spirit of the sport to boot a team out for an admin error

Rigor Mortis

on one level, it is a good decision for the fans, of a rake of the clubs who had bought tickets and flights

Shefwedfan

Buer wrote: »

Is it? Given the logistical nightmare an expulsion would have caused, I imagine a fine was always the likely result.

Saracens also could have put up a decent argument. In fairness, a silly clerical error shouldn't lead to the expulsion of a team if they can demonstrate it was accidental.

They said the overpaying of million was a silly clerical error

awec

If they had discovered this the day after the game you can be certain they'd be docked points.

At this stage though it would just cause total havoc.

Neil3030

Would Racing or Glasgow have an avenue to challenge this before the end of the season, even?

Seems like logistics and consideration for fans won the day here, which is understandable if not entirely consistent with previous cases.

Hurrache

Buer wrote: »

Is it? Given the logistical nightmare an expulsion would have caused, I imagine a fine was always the likely result.

Saracens also could have put up a decent argument. In fairness, a silly clerical error shouldn't lead to the expulsion of a team if they can demonstrate it was accidental.

But does the integrity of the competition not take priority over hassle? If it was during an earlier pool game without logistical issues would the penalty be any different?

If it's just a relatively minor financial fine there's no real disincentive for other teams to avoid this. And based on precedent they're opening themselves up to litigation.

scott1974

awec wrote: »

If they had discovered this the day after the game you can be certain they'd be docked points.

At this stage though it would just cause total havoc.

It seems strange that this came to their attention after the tickets went on general release...

Hurrache

scott1974 wrote: »

It seems strange that this came to their attention after the tickets went on general release...

Administrive delay in spotting the problem.

Eod100

Guess with tickets being sold and transport, accommodation arranged etc any changes would reflect worse on EPCR than Saracens.

cantwbr1

I would imagine Racing and Glasgow are consulting their solicitors

Buer

cantwbr1 wrote: »

I would imagine Racing and Glasgow are consulting their solicitors

I would imagine any decision made by the disciplinary committee which is comprised of three legal professionals is legally binding under the rules.

molloyjh

Minor infringement that they themselves flagged with the EPCR. This is a fair outcome. Nobody would bat an eyelid at it but for the shenanigans in the GP, which cant be allowed to impact the EPCR decision. They didnt just admit guilt here, they surrendered the info voluntarily. Theres no way that doesnt count as a mitigating factor in the hearing. Which is completely correct.

BonnieSituation

molloyjh wrote: »

Minor infringement that they themselves flagged with the EPCR. This is a fair outcome. Nobody would bat an eyelid at it but for the shenanigans in the GP, which cant be allowed to impact the EPCR decision. They didnt just admit guilt here, they surrendered the info voluntarily. Theres no way that doesnt count as a mitigating factor in the hearing. Which is completely correct.

Perhaps.

But no doubt we'll find out over the coming days when the clerical error was found out and sent to the EPCR. Which will further cast doubt on whether "hassle" was the primary motivation for the decision.

Hopefully we knock the bollox out of them and it's all moot.

---

Edit: 25k of the fine is suspended til next season. That's outrageous. I feel for Agen, Grenoble and London Irish right now...

Rigor Mortis

molloyjh wrote: »

Minor infringement that they themselves flagged with the EPCR. This is a fair outcome. Nobody would bat an eyelid at it but for the shenanigans in the GP, which cant be allowed to impact the EPCR decision. They didnt just admit guilt here, they surrendered the info voluntarily. Theres no way that doesnt count as a mitigating factor in the hearing. Which is completely correct.

I dont have a problem with the outcome from a fans perpective but the argument about mitigation is perverse. It might be a reason not to fine, but it is not a reason to award a points deduction in a game with a tight outcome where an ineligible player played.

if I were Racing i would be lodging a formal complaint.

Former Former

It's a fair outcome.

Guy:Incognito

Former Former wrote: »

It's a fair outcome.

So the previous cases with other clubs were disproportionate?

Squidgy Black

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So the previous cases with other clubs were disproportionate?

None of them were to do with work permits though, especially administration errors that meant the player was eligible when the squad was announced but due to an administration error wasn't two days later. The Grenoble one was due to a player not being registered as part of the ERC squad at all, which is the only precedent for the ERC (as different competitions have different regulations).

Kevski

Hurrache wrote: »

Administrive delay in spotting the problem.

Pretty convenient administrative delay from a Saracens perspective. As has been stated by others, the outcome would likely have been different if there had been less of an administrative delay so that’s a pretty poor excuse.

Former Former

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So the previous cases with other clubs were disproportionate?

They were different

molloyjh

Former Former wrote: »

They were different

Different offences with different contexts. I dont see how anyone can have any issue with this judgement. It makes perfect sense, ither than maybe the suspension of half the fine. Not sure what the reasoning behind that is.

stephen_n

molloyjh wrote: »

Different offences with different contexts. I dont see how anyone can have any issue with this judgement. It makes perfect sense, ither than maybe the suspension of half the fine. Not sure what the reasoning behind that is.

Good behavior and a nice suit

pickarooney

The whole area of work permits is a load of old ****e and a bane on the game. Anyone profiting from a team's admin error, especially if they make a legal case of it, is acting the bollocks and should feel bad.

There's no honour in that.

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

It's a fair outcome.

Absolutely. People losing the run of themselves here because It’s Sarries.

Eod100

Racing not happy at all but seem to be leaving it at a snarky press release. https://twitter.com/racing92/status/1226184169086234625?s=19

prawnsambo

The above in English. Shots (or perhaps salvoes) fired.

BBDBB

And they are spot on, it’s a bloody farce

molloyjh

BBDBB wrote: »

And they are spot on, it’s a bloody farce

It really isnt.

pickarooney

Shoestring Lorenzetti with his team of brave local boys cobbled together on a 30 million euro a year budget, your heart would bleed for the injustice.

prawnsambo

pickarooney wrote: »

Shoestring Lorenzetti with his team of brave local boys cobbled together on a 30 million euro a year budget, your heart would bleed for the injustice.

Well, to be fair, it's not as though he's dealing with the paupers of English club rugby.

I think the punishment handed down was fair enough in this case. For once I don't think there was any intent to cheat. The guy was in their Euro squad and he was eligible at the time they named their squad, but his permit elapsed between then and the game. It's not exactly crime of the century stuff.

Rigor Mortis

Melina Unsightly Apparel wrote: »

I think the punishment handed down was fair enough in this case. For once I don't think there was any intent to cheat. The guy was in their Euro squad and he was eligible at the time they named their squad, but his permit elapsed between then and the game. It's not exactly crime of the century stuff.

In relation to this particular rule breach, do you think there is ever an intention to cheat. Given the sanctions, it is always going to be accidental.

However, the question is, what is the precedent? The answer is to deduct points. The sole reason for this decision is impact on fans and broadcasters who have already made commitments.

What was noticeable on the Sarries forum in advance of the ruling was that no one thought that this was a witch hunt. They were, to a man, accepting that they would be kicked out for a stupid mistake.

I take the point that the proper penalty would have been tough, but not that it was the wrong one.

prawnsambo

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

In relation to this particular rule breach, do you think there is ever an intention to cheat. Given the sanctions, it is always going to be accidental.

However, the question is, what is the precedent? The answer is to deduct points. The sole reason for this decision is impact on fans and broadcasters who have already made commitments.

What was noticeable on the Sarries forum in advance of the ruling was that no one thought that this was a witch hunt. They were, to a man, accepting that they would be kicked out for a stupid mistake.

I take the point that the proper penalty would have been tough, but not that it was the wrong one.

There's also the sneaking suspicion that they knew if they left it long enough, it would make it harder for EPCR to deduct points for the reasons you cite. I know that's a very conspiratorial viewpoint, but that's the problem when you're dealing with serial cheats.

damianmcr

Allianz scraps Saracens sponsorship

molloyjh

damianmcr wrote: »

Allianz scraps Saracens sponsorship

Just read that there. Dropping them entirely a year early. Although it's still not official. That's another massive, albeit expected, blow. Having to find another sponsor at this late stage with the tarnished reputation will see them lose a massive amount of revenue. Can Wray really keep this operation afloat having already sunk tens of millions into it?

Squidgy Black

According to The Thistle Rugby podcast Sarries reached out to the SRU to see if they wanted to take over contracts for Scottish players, £550k for Maitland and £350 for Duncan Taylor.

No idea how reliable of a source they are though.

Bridge93

350k for Duncan Taylor is an astounding amount of money. If that’s what they were paying average players they deserve to go bust. Maitland not worth close to 550k either

Squidgy Black

Bridge93 wrote: »

350k for Duncan Taylor is an astounding amount of money. If that’s what they were paying average players they deserve to go bust. Maitland not worth close to 550k either

I'd say it's probably a contract buyout for two years of remaining contracts, so 175k a year for Taylor and 275k for Maitland. Or at least that's the only logical explanation for those sums I can think of

Buer

I'd argue that £350k for Taylor isn't as bad as £550k for Maitland (if true). Maitland is a mercenary who has jumped around and is at his 4th team. He's an extremely solid, reliable player without being spectacular. A high end Dave Kearney.

prawnsambo

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I'd say it's probably a contract buyout for two years of remaining contracts, so 175k a year for Taylor and 275k for Maitland. Or at least that's the only logical explanation for those sums I can think of

Anything I can find online for Sean Maitland says he signed a contract extension in May 2017 with Saracens until 2020. However RugbyPass looked at some of the Saracens players back in November and said that Maitland was likely to sign another contract extension at that time.

Taylor (according to the Saracens website) signed a contract extension in May 2018 to keep him at the club until 2021. I'd assume that's to the end of 2020/21 season.

RobbieRuns

The RFU have slashed funding for the English Championship next year. The good news keeps on coming for Saracens.

Going to be hard for other clubs in that league. Think they go from £500k per club down to £288k. Not going to kill Sarries or anything, but every little helps.

Shefwedfan

RobbieRuns wrote: »

The RFU have slashed funding for the English Championship next year. The good news keeps on coming for Saracens.

Going to be hard for other clubs in that league. Think they go from £500k per club down to £288k. Not going to kill Sarries or anything, but every little helps.

Its the start of the end for the Championship. The Premiership team will soon cut if off and have no relegation

irishbucsfan

It’s the ring fencing PRL wanted. No way a Championship club could ever afford promotion or pass the tests required now unless they had an external benefactor

Quin_Dub

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Its the start of the end for the Championship. The Premiership team will soon cut if off and have no relegation

Yep..

Saracens and Wray have no friends in the rest of PRL

Apply the full premiership rules , thereby keeping Saracens down in Championship for minimum of 2 years , which then loses them their seat and votes in PRL.

Once they are out of the way , vote for ring-fencing and that's that.

Shefwedfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It’s the ring fencing PRL wanted. No way a Championship club could ever afford promotion or pass the tests required now unless they had an external benefactor

The championship team will end up een the reserve team for Premiership teams. Just use their salary cap......

Podge_irl

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Yep..

Saracens and Wray have no friends in the rest of PRL

Apply the full premiership rules , thereby keeping Saracens down in Championship for minimum of 2 years , which then loses them their seat and votes in PRL.

Once they are out of the way , vote for ring-fencing and that's that.

PRL have already said that the salary cap rules mean Sarries can come straight back up.

jacothelad

Isn't there a pretty good parachute payment for the relegated team. Will Saracens be eligible.

Dave_The_Sheep

Podge_irl wrote: »

PRL have already said that the salary cap rules mean Sarries can come straight back up.

Must've missed that one.

Pity, it'd have been nice to see them stuck down there for two years.

Squidgy Black

Podge_irl wrote: »

PRL have already said that the salary cap rules mean Sarries can come straight back up.

Have they? I couldn't find any source on it, the only thing I saw was a tweet from someone saying people were misunderstanding the wording of regulation but no official statement saying they would be eligible for promotion at the end of next season

Podge_irl

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Have they? I couldn't find any source on it, the only thing I saw was a tweet from someone saying people were misunderstanding the wording of regulation but no official statement saying they would be eligible for promotion at the end of next season

I can't remember where I saw it so perhaps I am misremembering, but I recall reading something that either stated or suggested they had said that all that was required was for them to be under the cap for their year in the championship and show that they would be under it when in the premiership.