Saracens Salarygate: Automatic Relegation?

prawnsambo

Stephen Jones' unique take. Paywalled, so this is all I could snip.

thomond2006

This was a negotiated settlement. The idea that Saracens have been shafted is insane.

Rebel_Kn1ght

The part where he says it deserved a 10 point penalty is deluded

prawnsambo

Oh, the delusion is strong in this one.

thomond2006

Rebel_Kn1ght wrote: »

he is deluded

Fixed.

steam iron

Saracen Cheetahs

Brilliant

prawnsambo

Mad stuff altogether.

On a final note, I will go to my grave believing that no payment to a single Saracens player made a blind bit of difference to any match at any time. And that frankly, Saracens have just been too good.

Eod100

prawnsambo wrote: »

Mad stuff altogether.

Such rubbish. If they could maintain players without breaching cap it would have been in their best interest to do so. Hes honestly trying to say holding on to players they otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford didn't affect any result? Deluded is right

Former Former

Was not expecting to see Eddie Hobbs in the middle of a Stephen Jones- Stuart Barnes twitter discussion. Sarries should have brought him in.
He also seems to be a climate change denier now.

prawnsambo

Eod100 wrote: »

Such rubbish. If they could maintain players without breaching cap it would have been in their best interest to do so. Hes honestly trying to say holding on to players they otherwise wouldn't have been able to afford didn't affect any result? Deluded is right

Not just holding on to players. But attracting them from other clubs who couldn't meet their value due to the salary cap. How many players would have stayed put if Saracens hadn't been waving "co-investments" under their noses?

twinytwo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Stephen Jones' unique take. Paywalled, so this is all I could snip.

I know Jones is a troll. But you can't compare the likes of Leinster and Toulouse to sarries and Toulon. Two teams earned their euro success the hard way. Two teams bought the trophies.

Sarries are not the best club team of all time, they are just one of the best currently thanks to some financial magic.

This is actually good for the game, take some wind out of the sugar daddies sails.

Eod100

prawnsambo wrote: »

Not just holding on to players. But attracting them from other clubs who couldn't meet their value due to the salary cap. How many players would have stayed put if Saracens hadn't been waving "co-investments" under their noses?

Yeah exactly

thomond2006

I reckon it's time to ringfence the Premiership.

Eod100

Statement out this morning. Unsurprisingly doesn't really say a whole lot https://www.saracens.com/saracens-accepts-relegation-from-the-gallagher-premiership/

Squidgy Black

**Full Article on Saracens**

"So Saracens are officially relegated. Perhaps we should first look at rugby’s overall landscape and assess how profoundly that has changed everything. Then we can deal with the murky depths into which the game has sunk, and ponder how rugby became one of the world’s most embittered and secret of societies.

And we can try to detect the sport’s supposed values in the fact that no one implicated in imposing the punishment on Saracens can summon up one word for the innocents — their players, followers, those who may now be left unemployed. They have expressed no concern about the ill effects on England of relegating the national team’s core; or the effect on the Saracens academy, the most successful production line for English talent.

Apparently, as long as Premiership Rugby and its members got Sarries in the end, all this is subjugated, the injured innocents mere collateral damage. Any explanation? Premiership Rugby is almost silent, its chief executive and chairman apparently almost mute, refusing to share with the public until the briefest of statements last night.

The Premiership is palpably diminished for next season. Some of us have seen some club rugby: Cardiff and Newport, Bath and Leicester and Wasps, Leinster and Munster, Toulouse, Brive and Stade Francais in their greatest years. None can touch Saracens. In this era, they have been the greatest club team I have seen. Without Saracens for a season, there will be one excellent team (Exeter), three clubs improving but nowhere remotely near there yet (Gloucester, Sale and Northampton) but above all, a mid-table of inconsistent clubs who can all lose to anyone on the day.

With relegation now decided, all the energy, panic, bigger crowds and drama are drained away. Most of the rest of this season will be as dull as ditchwater. A priceless lesson for anyone wanting to ring-fence the competition.

It will also be easy to say that the landscape will change for a vast number of the disabled, indisposed, mentally unwell, lonely and the ageing, by any cut in the Saracens finances. But the umbrella for the unfortunate will not go away. I am positive that Nigel Wray will continue the Saracens Foundation, because it is arguably a bigger part of his life than Saracens rugby ever was.

But back to changes. Everyone knows that rugby is strangling itself by a lack of independence in its officialdom. Premiership Rugby, like all other rugby institutions, still consists of a bunch of blokes with a massive vested interest calling shots to suit themselves. It is nonsensical that the people who have sat in judgment recently on Saracens are their rivals. Will the penny drop? Rugby is unfit to govern itself.

Last week, we read about 10 different estimates of how far Saracens were over the salary cap. In the world of secrecy you can make up your own figure. The real problem for the club’s rivals was that the savagery of the original punishment was not enough. It did not kill them off. So the new “trials” began, completed processes were reactivated.

As the days went by, Saracens apparently received more letters from on high, demanding this and that and even reparations, which were completely outside the regulations. Then another investigation was called, which Premier Rugby’s chief executive declared could well introduce even more swingeing measures.

At the Saracens end, the very able Edward Griffiths had been brought in to clean up the mess. He had been away from the club scene for a long time but, by all accounts, quickly tried to sort things, fired off apologies, committed to reduce Saracens’ salaries if needed. Naturally, any players he tried to offload held no interest for the Premiership clubs, because it suited them not to do business with Saracens. But suddenly, Saracens were being pressed almost instantaneously to prove that they were under the salary cap for this season, which is halfway through, and to do so within days. Within days.

Their opponents realised that, under the regulations, they could not relegate Saracens. No way. So they made relegation impossible to avoid by punishing Saracens for a season half over. You would not have to be a Saracen to find some of this reprehensible.

Even those of us who, after the initial two years, never believed in the salary cap, realise that the laws must be adhered to. Only last week I was regaled by one of the attendees at the original meeting where the salary cap was passed, by 7-5, after which most of the delegates emerged laughing at how ineffective the move was likely to be. Even now it is still laughably easy to get round it if you want to.

And the confidentiality? The secrecy in rugby now has gone beyond all reason. Media officers are not allowed to spread anything in the way of information. Everything has become a secret.

Some matters are in the open, however. Saracens infringed the salary cap, an offence which deserved, say, a 10-point penalty. They are relegated. There will be enormous problems which the club are trying to fix. On a final note, I will go to my grave believing that no payment to a single Saracens player made a blind bit of difference to any match at any time. And that frankly, Saracens have just been too good."

**Plus another bit on England's 6 Nations Squad**

"**Now is time for Jones to move on from likes of Youngs and Tuilagi**

It all begins again tomorrow, when England announce their training squad from which their Six Nations squad will be chosen. Which measurements will Eddie Jones apply in his final deliberations? Current merit? Experience? Degree by which a choice thumbs his nose at public or media opinion? Blatant unknown?

All good fun. Or is it? Jones is the man who helped inspire the greatest performance in England rugby history, the savaging of New Zealand in the World Cup semi-final. And also admitted to (some of) his mistakes in the selection and set-up of the squad at the start and end of the tournament and which helped cost them the final.

One sure way to get much of the nation on his side is to win a grand slam this year. Some of us had enough, decades ago, of selection based on a misty-eyed tilting at a distant future in which only one game of about 46 (the World Cup final) matters a damn.

And we have become tired of pointing out that a grand slam, a wonderful achievement in so internecine and tight a competition, is a national boost of epic proportions. Short-term glory. Basking. Glinting. You cannot beat it. And it carries you forward on a wave benign enough to surf upon.

Saracens’ players have to be assessed. Many of them will, in their hearts, put the fortunes of their club above those of England at present. Then Jones can start to atone for scrum errors. Dan Cole will surely be moved out and I would also leave out Ellis Genge, pending further evidence. Harry Williams of Exeter will take up the squad place he deserved in Japan but never won. Ehren Painter of Northampton is a longish shot at tight-head

Behind the scrum, the endless search for the correct midfield is into its 17th season, but this time should be conducted in the absence of Manu Tuilagi. Mark Atkinson of Gloucester is more consistent, he is hefty, but he can also play. Luke and Sam James, of Sale, deserve a shot, maybe as a double-double act with the Curry twins.

The best scrum halves? On merit, Richard Wigglesworth, Ben Spencer and either Dan Robson or Joe Simpson. Sorry, but the World Cup selection was wrong in the position, so for me these three succeed Ben Youngs and Willi Heinz.

Alex Dombrandt of Harlequins, Jack Willis of Wasps and the resurgent Teimana Harrison of Northampton will contend in the back row, and as for a mature bolter, who is better as a back-up at fly half than Bristol’s Callum Sheedy?

All these men are on form. Not that that means an awful lot to a certain head coach. We wait, and wince, for tomorrow. Dear Eddie, dear England."

Waffletraktor

Does the slow motion car crash get even worse?
https://twitter.com/stricky1983/status/1218627001646567425

Buer

I'll be very interested to see what happens to the likes of McCall. I'd imagine he won't be going anywhere given his l success is massively tainted now.

The knock on impact of this are massive. Can England have multiple players in a lower division? Can the Lions go into a test series with a number of test players having had their feet up for a domestic season?

It will be interestint to see who departs. I'd imagine other teams are already all over a number of players. Farrell and Kruis have already said they're staying there.

If lads go to France, they're out of international contention but I reckon a few will go there anyway. Anyone over 30 should be on their bike straight away.

stephen_n

Not really sure it’s fair to say McCall’s success is tainted. More so that it would have to be taken in context of the players at his disposal. I’m sure he was aware of what was going on, as many of the players would have been. I doubt it would stop any club from signing him or any of them though.

El_Duderino 09

Buer wrote: »

I'll be very interested to see what happens to the likes of McCall. I'd imagine he won't be going anywhere given his l success is massively tainted now.

The knock on impact of this are massive. Can England have multiple players in a lower division? Can the Lions go into a test series with a number of test players having had their feet up for a domestic season?

It will be interestint to see who departs. I'd imagine other teams are already all over a number of players. Farrell and Kruis have already said they're staying there.

If lads go to France, they're out of international contention but I reckon a few will go there anyway. Anyone over 30 should be on their bike straight away.

A friend who supports Newcastle Falcons said that when Falcons got relegated they gave the players contracts which meant they could go elsewhere for the year and come back when the club is promoted to the Premiership again.

So I imagine Sarries could do something similar. French clubs would probably pay big money for the big names even for just one year. If a French club needs a dynamic secod row, how much would they pay Itoje to plug that gap for the year?

stephen_n

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

A friend who supports Newcastle Falcons said that when Falcons got relegated they gave the players contracts which meant they could go elsewhere for the year and come back when the club is promoted to the Premiership again.

So I imagine Sarries could do something similar. French clubs would probably pay big money for the big names even for just one year. If a French club needs a dynamic secod row, how much would they pay Itoje to plug that gap for the year?

As someone pointed out earlier, Sarries are down for two years at least. They would also have to get themselves below the salary cap next year, two be able to come back up in two years.

Squidgy Black

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

A friend who supports Newcastle Falcons said that when Falcons got relegated they gave the players contracts which meant they could go elsewhere for the year and come back when the club is promoted to the Premiership again.

So I imagine Sarries could do something similar. French clubs would probably pay big money for the big names even for just one year. If a French club needs a dynamic secod row, how much would they pay Itoje to plug that gap for the year?

It'll be two years until they can go back up due to the salary cap regulations, and by then most of their players contracts will have lapsed unless they agree to sign a new contract ahead of time to say they'll return to Sarries for the 2022/23 season, which I can't see many players wanting to do.

prawnsambo

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

A friend who supports Newcastle Falcons said that when Falcons got relegated they gave the players contracts which meant they could go elsewhere for the year and come back when the club is promoted to the Premiership again.

So I imagine Sarries could do something similar. French clubs would probably pay big money for the big names even for just one year. If a French club needs a dynamic secod row, how much would they pay Itoje to plug that gap for the year?

It's going to be two seasons though. Promotion depends on the club being within the salary cap for the last two seasons. Since Saracens are admittedly over it for this season, that means that they will have to spend two seasons in the championship under the cap.

El_Duderino 09

stephen_n wrote: »

As someone pointed out earlier, Sarries are down for two years at least. They would also have to get themselves below the salary cap next year, two be able to come back up in two years.

Ah fair enough. I wonder if they'll waive that rule for Sarries. Two years in the championship could kill the club.

typhoony

Are the players going to take massive pay- cuts if they stay, Saracens can't afford them and the players are under contract so if they decide not to take a pay-cut there's not much Saracens can do. Either pay them off to leave or keep them until their contracts are over

prawnsambo

typhoony wrote: »

Are the players going to take massive pay- cuts if they stay, Saracens can't afford them and the players are under contract so if they decide not to take a pay-cut there's not much Saracens can do. Either pay them off to leave or keep them but their contracts are over

The players will have relegation clauses in their contracts. So if they want to go, it's on them.

El_Duderino 09

The easiest way around the rules is to ring fence the Premiership next year with Sarries included.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

A friend who supports Newcastle Falcons said that when Falcons got relegated they gave the players contracts which meant they could go elsewhere for the year and come back when the club is promoted to the Premiership again.

So I imagine Sarries could do something similar. French clubs would probably pay big money for the big names even for just one year. If a French club needs a dynamic secod row, how much would they pay Itoje to plug that gap for the year?

I was listening to an interview on BT yesterday and Sam Warburton was saying that some teams in the prem would have clauses to release the players if relegated but given it wasn't on the radar for Sarries he thought the players there wouldn't have them.

I'd disagree - I imagine every player has them or at least the top players in every squad. Just because relegation is unlikely, doesn't mean any agent worth their salt hasn't gotten a break clauses in there for the unthinkable.

I think some of the Sarries lads will go on loan but many of the frontliners will leave. It will be interesting to see what options there are as the French teams also seem to be reigning things in.

If Wray pulls out financially the club is done and I imagine that is a prospect right now and a factor in the players thoughts.

durkadurka

prawnsambo wrote: »

The players will have relegation clauses in their contracts. So if they want to go, it's on them.

Apparently they don’t.

But I’d say it will be mutually agreed

jr86

Buer wrote: »

I'll be very interested to see what happens to the likes of McCall. I'd imagine he won't be going anywhere given his l success is massively tainted now.

The knock on impact of this are massive. Can England have multiple players in a lower division? Can the Lions go into a test series with a number of test players having had their feet up for a domestic season?

It will be interestint to see who departs. I'd imagine other teams are already all over a number of players. Farrell and Kruis have already said they're staying there.

If lads go to France, they're out of international contention but I reckon a few will go there anyway. Anyone over 30 should be on their bike straight away.

French based players can still be picked in "exceptional circumstances" I understand

Its a non-issue with regard to world class players like farrell, Itoje and the Vunipolas anyway - they'll be playing for England regardless of where they end up

There's no way I can see Farrell going to France though.

prawnsambo

durkadurka wrote: »

Apparently they don’t.

But I’d say it will be mutually agreed

Have you a source for that? Because it would strike me that it would be a standard enough clause.

durkadurka

prawnsambo wrote: »

Have you a source for that? Because it would strike me that it would be a standard enough clause.

Um, eh, Stephen Jones in the paper today

*runs away and hides under a rock*

Squidgy Black

You would have to imagine that players are going to have to have a long hard think about it. The likes of Farrell etc who are reportedly saying they're going to stay and won't leave, run the risk of taking a pay cut of several hundreds of thousands of pounds, playing two years in the championship, with what you would imagine will be a much weaker squad.

It's all fine and well to say they'll get back up in two years if they get under the cap, but with the financial situation there's also a good chance things will go tits up and they'll be stuck in a sinking ship. It's a massive risk for a top flight player. It's not exactly like sticking with say Newcastle or even Bristol in their championship year where they know they'll be straight back up the year after.

prawnsambo

durkadurka wrote: »

Um, eh, Stephen Jones in the paper today

*runs away and hides under a rock*

It's not in the article that was posted earlier on this thread.

durkadurka

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's not in the article that was posted earlier on this thread.

There’s another article he wrote today.

Squidgy Black

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7903083/Sabbaticals-overseas-friendlies-innovative-proposals-Saracens-plan-stars.html

Interesting stuff in there, talk of tournaments against South African super rugby sides, sabbaticals, and loan deals to IRFU provinces

CIARAN_BOYLE

Squidgy Black wrote: »

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7903083/Sabbaticals-overseas-friendlies-innovative-proposals-Saracens-plan-stars.html

Interesting stuff in there, talk of tournaments against South African super rugby sides, sabbaticals, and loan deals to IRFU provinces

Problem is they are talking about one year in championship. They have to worry about two.

Someone has to reread the rules book.

Eod100

Buer wrote: »

I'll be very interested to see what happens to the likes of McCall. I'd imagine he won't be going anywhere given his l success is massively tainted now.

The knock on impact of this are massive. Can England have multiple players in a lower division? Can the Lions go into a test series with a number of test players having had their feet up for a domestic season?

It will be interestint to see who departs. I'd imagine other teams are already all over a number of players. Farrell and Kruis have already said they're staying there.

If lads go to France, they're out of international contention but I reckon a few will go there anyway. Anyone over 30 should be on their bike straight away.

I think given the unusual circumstances there might be flexibility about being picked from abroad potentially

OldRio

I'd imagine that the idea of 'ring fencing' the Premiership has been put on hold for a season or two or three.

ScrubsfanChris

The sh*thousery begins.................. :pac:

https://twitter.com/AndyGoode10/status/1218840994059378688?s=20:

sydthebeat

Love goody

The rugby pod will be fun this week

Squidgy Black

He's been getting a lot of heat on Twitter for no reason, there seems to be a lot of English fans who are criticising anyone reporting or speaking out about the decision.

Can't wait for the podcast episode though. In fairness to Hamilton he's been playing along with it in good humour so far.

Buer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If Wray pulls out financially the club is done and I imagine that is a prospect right now and a factor in the players thoughts.

That's the thing. Saracens aren't thinking about getting back to the top of the tree at the moment. They need to ensure their future existence right now.

They're still miles over the cap. Their average player has a salary way in excess of the average Championship player. They've a huge fine. The television and prize money is probably gone for 2 years. The sponsors and support is going to evaporate.

This could well be Richmond all over again if they don't have a plan and quick.

BonnieSituation

Remember after the shocking crowd at the Munster SF last year there was talk of changing the format yet again. Again reportage seemed to ignore the fact bit was a lack of Saracens fans that led to this.

Really wound me up. And just something else remember with this toxic hovel of a club

Empty seats leave Champions Cup licking its wounds and looking at rejig

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/apr/23/empty-seats-champions-cup-looking-rejig-rugby-union-cvc-pro14?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

---

That Stephen Jones article posted earlier is beyond anything I even thought his delusion was capable of.

Jesus!

Scythica

living over in england everyone keeps telling me irish sides all break the salary cap if it was the same.

does anyone have any facts or figures on this?

RobbieRuns

sydthebeat wrote: »

Love goody

The rugby pod will be fun this week

Can’t stand the fat eejit. A headline grabbing, lime light loving mercenary.

What actually is he? Not a journo, self promoter of himself through social media.

Squidgy Black

Scythica wrote: »

living over in england everyone keeps telling me irish sides all break the salary cap if it was the same.

does anyone have any facts or figures on this?

There's no figures available for any Irish provinces, wages aren't disclosed or province spending on salaries. A figure was floated around of €10 million for Leinster, but if you brought the exemptions for two top players, credits for international players, and then test windows + injuries it'd probably be roughly similar to the cap amount and a guess.

Bazzo

Scythica wrote: »

living over in england everyone keeps telling me irish sides all break the salary cap if it was the same.

does anyone have any facts or figures on this?

If anyone thinks Connacht's wage bill is >£7 million they're ****ing delusional.

The same is almost definitely true for Ulster and Munster. Leinster maaaybe

Panda Killa

https://twitter.com/threeredkings/status/1218655462910054400?s=09



Yaw..3 cheers for Taylor Swift

prawnsambo

Squidgy Black wrote: »

There's no figures available for any Irish provinces, wages aren't disclosed or province spending on salaries. A figure was floated around of €10 million for Leinster, but if you brought the exemptions for two top players, credits for international players, and then test windows + injuries it'd probably be roughly similar to the cap amount and a guess.

Ten million would be accurate enough. The only hint in the IRFU accounts (2018/19) is under the heading "Professional game costs" which total €45 million. You'd be deducting a hefty chunk for the coaching team, development officers, other salaries like Nucifora, attendance at tournaments etc. before you get around to divvying up money to the provinces. Then add in what the provinces generate themselves, the bulk of which would probably go towards running the show and paying the permanent staff plus grounds cost etc.

prawnsambo

Bazzo wrote: »

If anyone thinks Connacht's wage bill is >£7 million they're ****ing delusional.

The same is almost definitely true for Ulster and Munster. Leinster maaaybe

Jackie Lorenzetti was saying the other day that the Top 14 salary cap would be very similar to the Premiership one. His point was the the £7 million figure was the baseline to which is added the two marquee players and then allowances for internationals and academy players etc.