Cocaine

Tomaldo

tdf7187 wrote: »

You are seriously suggesting that cocaine helped them to become wealthy? Ludicrous.

I didn't say it "helped" them become wealthy, you're twisting my words but taking cocaine did not "prevent" them becoming wealthier.

guy2231

No sympathy for people with happy and joyful lives who become addicted but I have plenty of sympathy for people with deep depression or other mental health problems who become addicted because of the natural craving to be happy and stop feeling bad.

Cocaine is a very casual drug it causes no physical withdrawals and is very hard to become addicted to, most people become addicted after years of casual usage.

If anyone wants to know more about addiction check out the Ted talks on youtube a good example in the video is a study on rats, rats who had big cages with lots of things to do and rat friends to play with almost never touched the cocaine water apart from a couple of times but the rats who were in cages alone with nothing to do and no other rats to socialise with almost always drank the cocaine water and would eventually kill themselves with it.

Very similar to how humans behave with hard drugs in general.

Tomaldo

tdf7187 wrote: »

If he's the healthiest looking septuagenarian/octegenarian you've ever seen it's because he's sober and clean for forty years, not because he overindulged in alcohol and drugs when he was younger.

Keith Richards, who only got sober and clean in relatively recent years, has looked like death warmed up for decades (though seems to have maintained reasonably good health - guess he was lucky).

Again I didn't say drugs caused his longevity, he went to rehab in 1988 (nearer 30 years than 40), he turned 38 that year, 10 years older than Amy Winehouse when she died from alcohol poisoning. Keith Richards is in his late seventies, a lot of health-fanatics don't reach that milestone and very few people win beauty contests at that age.

guy2231

Tomaldo wrote: »

Again I didn't say drugs caused his longevity, he went to rehab in 1988 (nearer 30 years than 40), he turned 38 that year, 10 years older than Amy Winehouse when she died from alcohol poisoning. Keith Richards is in his late seventies, a lot of health-fanatics don't reach that milestone and very few people win beauty contests at that age.

Cocaine can be used relatively safely, the same people ending up in A&E from coke are the same people ending up in A&E from alcohol people who have have no self control or people who just feel like they are invincible.

virginmediapls

guy2231 wrote: »

Cocaine can be used relatively safely, the same people ending up in A&E from coke are the same people ending up in A&E from alcohol people who have have no self control or people who just feel like they are invincible.

Not true. Cocaine can cause sudden random heart failure at any time. Especially the **** we get in Ireland, since you don't have a clue what's inside it. This is far, far less likely to happen with a more regulated, far less dangerous alcohol.

Strumms

guy2231 wrote: »

Cocaine can be used relatively safely, the same people ending up in A&E from coke are the same people ending up in A&E from alcohol people who have have no self control or people who just feel like they are invincible.

I don’t agree.

Cocaine is not a regulated product.

It’s manufacturing is not regulated, audited or observed.

It’s storage and transport is not regulated, audited or observed.

It’s sale is not regulated, audited or observed.

Alcohol, is regulated, it’s manufacturing processes audited and observed.

Locations that sell it are regulated, audited and observed...

All done to protect the public. Cocaine is a drug, manufactured and distributed by criminals, gangsters and cretins, without any checks and balances on it’s manufacturing, storage and quality... brought to market by the most undesirable dodge merchants going.

Tomaldo

Strumms wrote: »

I don’t agree.

Cocaine is not a regulated product.

It’s manufacturing is not regulated, audited or observed.

It’s storage and transport is not regulated, audited or observed.

It’s sale is not regulated, audited or observed.

Alcohol, is regulated, it’s manufacturing processes audited and observed.

Locations that sell it are regulated, audited and observed...

All done to protect the public. Cocaine is a drug, manufactured and distributed by criminals, gangsters and cretins, without any checks and balances on it’s manufacturing, storage and quality... brought to market by the most undesirable dodge merchants going.

And that's why it should be legalised, regulate and make it safer.

2011

Tomaldo wrote: »

And that's why it should be legalised, regulate and make it safer.

....and that is a topic for a different thread.

The OP's question that so many coke heads in this thread are avoiding is "do you think cocaine users in Ireland have some responsibility for the gang warfare that is destroying parts of the country?"

Wanderer78

2011 wrote:

The OP's question that so many coke heads in this thread are avoiding is "do you think cocaine users in Ireland have some responsibility for the gang warfare that is destroying parts of the country?"

Bit of a silly question though, logic cannot be used in regards the use of highly addictive substances, it's why pricing of alcohol probably won't make the blindess bit of difference in regards consumption. the whole idea is based on 'personal responsibility', this is an attempt to exonerate societies part in dealing with such complexities

tdf7187

guy2231 wrote: »

Cocaine can be used relatively safely, the same people ending up in A&E from coke are the same people ending up in A&E from alcohol people who have have no self control or people who just feel like they are invincible.

Addiction is a disease. Sadly your view is all too prevalent.

PalLimerick

Yes of course.

guy2231

virginmediapls wrote: »

Not true. Cocaine can cause sudden random heart failure at any time. Especially the **** we get in Ireland, since you don't have a clue what's inside it. This is far, far less likely to happen with a more regulated, far less dangerous alcohol.

Yes it can but that rarely ever ever happens and if it does it is because of a pre existing heart condition or the user used far too much.

Did I say it was risk free? You seem to have misread my posy I said it could be used relatively safely what I meant was in comparison to many other drugs.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

2011 wrote: »

....and that is a topic for a different thread.

The OP's question that so many coke heads in this thread are avoiding is "do you think cocaine users in Ireland have some responsibility for the gang warfare that is destroying parts of the country?"

Can we expnad that to "do consumers have some responsibility for the social and ethical issues acaused by the creation of their products?"

ChickenDish

Advocates of cocaine are indifferent to the death and misery its existence causes, they are self absorbed and all they care about is their self gratification.

Its always the same playground argument to legalise it - alcohol and cigarettes are legal why can't hard drugs be legal. Alcohol and cigarettes cause enough health issues and heartache without adding to it by legalising class A drugs.

At what point do these people think enough is enough, do you legalise heroin too, or is it only your drug of choice that matters.

I've seen first hand your harmless drug cocaine ruin lives.

Wanderer78

ChickenDish wrote: »

Advocates of cocaine are indifferent to the death and misery its existence causes, they are self absorbed and all they care about is their self gratification.

Its always the same playground argument to legalise it - alcohol and cigarettes are legal why can't hard drugs be legal. Alcohol and cigarettes cause enough health issues and heartache without adding to it by legalising class A drugs.

At what point do these people think enough is enough, do you legalise heroin too, or is it only your drug of choice that matters.

I've seen first hand your harmless drug cocaine ruin lives.

ive never touched an illegal drug, thank god, and im at the point, legalise the lot, yes it ll be extremely problematic, extremely risky and extremely dangerous to do so, but.......

Strumms

ChickenDish wrote: »

Advocates of cocaine are indifferent to the death and misery its existence causes, they are self absorbed and all they care about is their self gratification.

Its always the same playground argument to legalise it - alcohol and cigarettes are legal why can't hard drugs be legal. Alcohol and cigarettes cause enough health issues and heartache without adding to it by legalising class A drugs.

At what point do these people think enough is enough, do you legalise heroin too, or is it only your drug of choice that matters.

I've seen first hand your harmless drug cocaine ruin lives.

Our health shyster system is already overburdened by addicts and addiction...

By making drugs more accessible it’s going to make the situation worse... I’ve already posted the numbers.

I’ve been in a&e following an assault at midnight and walked out of there at 4.45 having had the wound cleaned only, sun was coming up with my head still split open and concussed, I’d been sitting there since 11.30 pm the previous evening.. but junkie after junkie, cokeheads scumbag after scumbag arrived and knew the staff and got preferential treatment as they just wanted them in and gone..

WhiteMemento9

Do people who use Apple products, buy cheap mass-produced clothes, etc have blood on their hands?

Wanderer78

Strumms wrote: »

Our health shyster system is already overburdened by addicts and addiction...

By making drugs more accessible it’s going to make the situation worse... I’ve already posted the numbers.

I’ve been in a&e following an assault at midnight and walked out of there at 4.45 having had the wound cleaned only, sun was coming up with my head still split open and concussed, I’d been sitting there since 11.30 pm the previous evening.. but junkie after junkie, cokeheads scumbag after scumbag arrived and knew the staff and got preferential treatment as they just wanted them in and gone..

...so what should we do with our rising addiction issues?

guy2231

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...so what should we do with our rising addiction issues?

We could do what Portugal did, decriminalise small amounts of all drugs and use the money we would save by helping addicts get past their addiction by offering them treatment and life opportunities.

Strumms

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...so what should we do with our rising addiction issues?

We should deter people further from going down that path.

Tough sentences for both use and supply of drugs...

Fûck this idea that addicts are victims, they are not...

They have made choices that are detrimental to the health and wellbeing of themselves and the state...

We’ve almost developed an ‘awhhh’ attitude to addiction and drug addiction / use...

Education is in the school, they are ‘choosing’ a path, a life, why should the rest of us have to foot the fücking bill ?

Wanderer78

guy2231 wrote: »

We could do what Portugal did, decriminalise small amounts of all drugs and use the money we would save by helping addicts get past their addiction by offering them treatment and life opportunities.

absolutely agree, but its important to remember, this approach is also fraught with problems, theres nothing easy about addictive substances

Chavez.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

absolutely agree, but its important to remember, this approach is also fraught with problems, theres nothing easy about addictive substances

I'm thinking legalization needs to be done in the context of a working expansive healthcare system

guy2231

Strumms wrote: »

We should deter people further from going down that path.

Tough sentences for both use and supply of drugs...

Fûck this idea that addicts are victims, they are not...

They have made choices that are detrimental to the health and wellbeing of themselves and the state...

We’ve almost developed an ‘awhhh’ attitude to addiction and drug addiction / use...

Education is in the school, they are ‘choosing’ a path, a life, why should the rest of us have to foot the fücking bill ?

What an absolute joke, how stupid can you be to believe something like this?

Honestly you made me laugh how ridiculously dumb you sound.

guy2231

Wanderer78 wrote: »

absolutely agree, but its important to remember, this approach is also fraught with problems, theres nothing easy about addictive substances

What kind of problems?

Wanderer78

Strumms wrote: »

We should deter people further from going down that path.

Tough sentences for both use and supply of drugs...

Fûck this idea that addicts are victims, they are not...

They have made choices that are detrimental to the health and wellbeing of themselves and the state...

We’ve almost developed an ‘awhhh’ attitude to addiction and drug addiction / use...

Education is in the school, they are ‘choosing’ a path, a life, why should the rest of us have to foot the fücking bill ?

oh this bullsh!t!

so fill up jails, build more jails....wont work...

victims of complete societal failures, absolutely

yes the mentally unwell mind is prone to poor choices, we already know this....

yes we have indeed, we have an absolute refusal to accept addiction is far more complex, and addicts need particular types of professional help, so we ve decided, ah fcuk it, lets ignore it, surely it ll go away!

yup, theres something fundamentally wrong with our educational system, which is an element of such outcomes

funnily enough, we re on a similar page after all that!

Wanderer78

Chavez. wrote: »

I'm thinking legalization needs to be done in the context of a working expansive healthcare system

absolutely, we would need to radically change our health system, for such an approach

guy2231 wrote: »

What kind of problems?

id imagine if you spoke with people living and working in Portugal, theyd have a very different view on this, id imagine their radical change has been a nightmare in many ways. ive heard harassment of tourists is common, but id imagine its much deeper than this, we must always remember, theres nothing simple about addictive substances, they will probably always be problematic, no matter what management approach we take

guy2231

Wanderer78 wrote: »

absolutely agree, but its important to remember, this approach is also fraught with problems, theres nothing easy about addictive substances

When drugs were decriminalised in Portugal most people around the world believed drug addiction would skyrocket, the opposite happened mainly because they used the money they previously used on punishing addicts and used the money instead on drug treatment and offering them opportunities to change their lives like jobs and treatment.

If anyone wants to know more about addiction check out the Ted talks on youtube a good example in the video is a study on rats, rats who had big cages with lots of things to do and rat friends to play with almost never touched the cocaine water apart from a couple of times but the rats who were in cages alone with nothing to do and no other rats to socialise with almost always drank the cocaine water and would eventually kill themselves with it.

Very similar to how humans behave with hard drugs in general.

Ash.J.Williams

Tomaldo wrote: »

They weren't always rich, they became wealthier AFTER they took it. Anyway as far as I know, rich people only have one body, the same as everyone else.

Just for record there’s no money in album sales anymore so you probably won’t get rich after develop a habit these days

Wanderer78

guy2231 wrote: »

When drugs were decriminalised in Portugal most people around the world believed drug addiction would skyrocket, the opposite happened mainly because they used the money they previously used on punishing addicts and used the money instead on drug treatment and offering them opportunities to change their lives like jobs and treatment.

If anyone wants to know more about addiction check out the Ted talks on youtube a good example in the video is a study on rats, rats who had big cages with lots of things to do and rat friends to play with almost never touched the cocaine water apart from a couple of times but the rats who were in cages alone with nothing to do and no other rats to socialise with almost always drank the cocaine water and would eventually kill themselves with it.

Very similar to how humans behave with hard drugs in general.

we re all aware of these positives, but we d be extremely naïve to think its all roses!

guy2231

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we re all aware of these positives, but we d be extremely naïve to think its all roses!

No one is saying it would be all roses but it would be far better than what we have now.

I asked you what you thought the negatives in Portugal were and all you could say is something about tourists being harassed, I don't see many negatives about it.

ohnonotgmail

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we re all aware of these positives, but we d be extremely naïve to think its all roses!

I don't think anybody would claim it is all roses. That is no reason to dismiss the idea.

Wanderer78

guy2231 wrote: »

No one is saying it would be all roses but it would be far better than what we have now.

I asked you what you thought the negatives in Portugal were and all you could say is something about tourists being harassed I don't see many negatives about it.

for the moment, its the oly answer i have, but we must be very realistic here, i guarantee you some issues have escalated in Portugal, over the last few years

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I don't think anybody would claim it is all roses. That is no reason to dismiss the idea.

im not dismissing it at all, i actually agree with legalisation, but.....

ohnonotgmail

Wanderer78 wrote: »

for the moment, its the oly answer i have, but we must be very realistic here, i guarantee you some issues have escalated in Portugal, over the last few years

What issues are you referring to?

Wanderer78 wrote: »

im not dismissing it at all, i actually agree with legalisation, but.....

we had people on here saying it was a terrible idea because they were offered drugs on the streets of lisbon.

Wanderer78

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

What issues are you referring to?

i dont know, i dont have any ideas, but we must always remember, there is nothing simple about highly addictive substances, all management approaches would be problematic, including Portugals approach

we had people on here saying it was a terrible idea because they were offered drugs on the streets of lisbon.

yes, this is one such issue ive heard, this obviously would have a knock on effect to tourist industries, but id imagine theres far deeper issues going on also

ohnonotgmail

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yes, this is one such issue ive heard, this obviously would have a knock on effect to tourist industries, but id imagine theres far deeper issues going on also

but you don't know what they are?

Wanderer78

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

but you don't know what they are?

no, because i havent looked into it, again, theres nothing simple about addictive substances, they will always introduce complexities and dysfunctions, period, no matter what management approach is used

Strumms

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oh this bullsh!t!

so fill up jails, build more jails....wont work...

victims of complete societal failures, absolutely

yes the mentally unwell mind is prone to poor choices, we already know this....

yes we have indeed, we have an absolute refusal to accept addiction is far more complex, and addicts need particular types of professional help, so we ve decided, ah fcuk it, lets ignore it, surely it ll go away!

yup, theres something fundamentally wrong with our educational system, which is an element of such outcomes

funnily enough, we re on a similar page after all that!

Society isn’t failing these people. They are failing society.

What percentage of drug users / addicts are ‘ mentally unwell ‘ ?

You are looking for excuses. Another person who is chomping at the bit to excuse people from being responsible and taking responsibility for the choices which they make in life and the dreadful impacts those choices make on law abiding citizens...and society as a whole.

ohnonotgmail

Strumms wrote: »

Society isn’t failing these people. They are failing society.

What percentage of drug users / addicts are ‘ mentally unwell ‘ ?

You are looking for excuses. Another person who is chomping at the bit to excuse people from being responsible and taking responsibility for the choices which they make in life and the dreadful impacts those choices make on law abiding citizens...and society as a whole.

how is the current criminalisation of drugs working out? going well, is it?

Strumms

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how is the current criminalisation of drugs working out? going well, is it?

Compared to if it wasn’t criminalized ? Completely.

Wanderer78

Strumms wrote: »

Society isn’t failing these people. They are failing society.

What percentage of drug users / addicts are ‘ mentally unwell ‘ ?

You are looking for excuses. Another person who is chomping at the bit to excuse people from being responsible and taking responsibility for the choices which they make in life and the dreadful impacts those choices make on law abiding citizens...and society as a whole.

...again, more bullsh!t and ignorance

addiction is a sign of multi system failure, particularly health care system failure

you truly do need to research this stuff, addiction is the sign of underlying psychological issues and disorders, which can be varied beyond belief.

take an ould trip to your local psychic ward, and see for yourself

we have been playing the ould 'personnel responsibility' game for a while now, its clearly failing, this is clearly obvious

ohnonotgmail

Strumms wrote: »

Compared to if it wasn’t criminalized ? Completely.

what are you basing that opinion on?

Chavez.

The current Garda strategy targeting cannabis and youths
, is this a thought-out strategy or where did it originate ?

I can see how charging young people and then giving them the option of voluntary drug testing and probation should work

Strumms

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...again, more bullsh!t and ignorance

addiction is a sign of multi system failure, particularly health care system failure

you truly do need to research this stuff, addiction is the sign of underlying psychological issues and disorders, which can be varied beyond belief.

take an ould trip to your local psychic ward, and see for yourself

we have been playing the ould 'personnel responsibility' game for a while now, its clearly failing, this is clearly obvious

Bullshît ? Classy response. A really well thought out argument.

Addiction is as the result of choices, the wrong choices... nobody else to blame.

A psychic ward ? I presume you meant psychiatric ward ? Those conditions in the main are as a result of drug abuse, drug use. Read about it.

Personal responsibility fails ? It does when people refuse to be responsible for their choices and instead seek to blame everyone else.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

................

we have been playing the ould 'personnel responsibility' game for a while now, its clearly failing, this is clearly obvious

No we haven't, folk with multiple convictions are wandering around the streets indulging in illegal activity while being on JSA and housed at the taxpayers expense after fathering several children who are unlikely to contribute to society as their parents are wasters.

If these cnuts actually had to serve their full sentances in jail they wouldn't be out reproducing, taking up housing and wasting JSA whilst not looking for work.

We don't play personal responsibility at all in Ireland.
We should give it a try for a few decades IMO.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

...............................

take an ould trip to your local psychic ward, and see for yourself ..........

guy2231

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yes, this is one such issue ive heard, this obviously would have a knock on effect to tourist industries, but id imagine theres far deeper issues going on also

I've been to many tourist hotspots in Spain I was being offered drugs constantly by people standing on the street selling them, Portugal didn't decriminalise drug dealing it's still illegal to do so.

I don't see how people offering you drugs on the street would decrease tourism anymore than heroin addicts crawling all over Dublin city centre does.

ChickenDish

Wanderer78 wrote: »

ive never touched an illegal drug, thank god, and im at the point, legalise the lot, yes it ll be extremely problematic, extremely risky and extremely dangerous to do so, but.......

Believe me, you really don't want to be in a society were being a coke fiend is easy as buying a 6 pack.

Class A drugs are a scourge on the world, legalising them will have the exact same effect as opioids prescribed en masse in the states did. Millions of Americans are addicted to prescribed meds in America. The world doesn't need more people taking more drugs.

Tomaldo

2011 wrote: »

....and that is a topic for a different thread.

The OP's question that so many coke heads in this thread are avoiding is "do you think cocaine users in Ireland have some responsibility for the gang warfare that is destroying parts of the country?"

Fair enough. Michael McDowell, when he was MoJ, said someone from an affluent area who takes drugs is responsible for the shooting of somebody in a working class community. That was well over a decade ago, so it would appear or it's obvious that drug users or "coke heads" care as much about gang warfare as prohibitionists do, very little.

Tomaldo

Posters talking a lot about addicts but they're a small minority of drug users. I know many people who take coke but they only do it at weekends or special events, then it's back to work on Monday, where they DO contribute to society. They don't seek or need state treatment for their habit.

Chavez.

Tomaldo wrote: »

Posters talking a lot about addicts but they're a small minority of drug users. I know many people who take coke but they only do it at weekends or special events, then it's back to work on Monday, where they DO contribute to society. They don't seek or need state treatment for their habit.

What are they like when they're out

Prob not great