Is it not time EVERYONE considers not voting for FF or FG in the upcoming election

James Brown

smurgen wrote: »

I would say at least 50%

Well 1 in 4 are landlords but I'd wager more are profiting off the crisis. I expect revelations about Noonan in years to come.

pjohnson

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Well 1 in 4 are landlords but I'd wager more are profiting off the crisis. I expect revelations about Noonan in years to come.

About 75% of FG voters would be landlords loving the current housing market, absolutely terrified of change.

efanton

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The go to is too many lazy people so they don't deserve a house. Then you point out they are getting houses anyway, just in the form of hotels and leased property. Then it's we've no money to build, then you point out we've money for leasing and hotels. Then the say we've nobody to build them, then you point out somebody is building the apartments and houses we are leasing and buying. Then they say there's no land, and you say where are they building all these apartments often on public land? Then they disappear...then a few days later it all starts again with a post about some single mother or such.
Why? See above.

And your point is, in relation to my post?
I must of missed it because it bares no relation to my post or what I was saying.

enricoh

Auguste Comte wrote: »

I wonder what percentage of Fine Gael TD's are landlords and are profiting handsomely from the system as it stands?

If landlords are doing so well from the system why are so many packing it in?
Is it
a- they're thick
Or b - they're not profiting handsomely?

Edgware

smurgen wrote: »

I would say at least 50%

Thats excellent statistic analysis. Did you create the SF economic policies?

pjohnson

enricoh wrote: »

If landlords are doing so well from the system why are so many packing it in?
Is it
a- they're thick
Or b - they're not profiting handsomely?

They are been given certain responsibilities and standards to meet. Its outrageous.

They want to do nothing for maximum rent. While complaining about "working hard" of course.

efanton

enricoh wrote: »

If landlords are doing so well from the system why are so many packing it in?
Is it
a- they're thick
Or b - they're not profiting handsomely?

I think the truth is most are accidental landlords. They though it would be a get rich scheme or they are trying to find a way to salvage themselves from a bad investment.

The professional landlords are in it over the long term. They know that their investment will take years to actually produce returns. They also realise that managed properly their return will be substantially more than what they may get in any other form of investment.

Suggest to any businessman that he should expect net profits of at least 15% to 20% and most will laugh at you and rightly so. So why should landlords think that this is possible over a short term.

Then consider that even if a landlord make zero profit on rent ( rent minus taxes just offsets their mortgage) many would claim they are making no profit.
Of course they are, and any financial analyst will tell them so. Once the mortgage has been paid they are getting a house worth hundreds of thousands absolutely free.
Tell me any other investment that will return a €200k profit over 20 years with so little initial outlay. There is none, well not legal.

James Brown

efanton wrote: »

And your point is, in relation to my post?
I must of missed it because it bares no relation to my post or what I was saying.

You asked what FG supporters thoughts were.
I gave you the responses I get when I ask the same thing.
Whether knowingly or not, supporting FG is supporting big companies making money off the housing crisis at a loss to the tax payer IMO.

smurgen

Catherine Noone after putting her foot in it royally.leo left looking like a limp,do nothing leader once again.

smurgen

Funny to hear silence from FF and fg with respect to noone's comments.when it was a SF lads making a stupid comment they ensured the thread on it pulled on to 800 plus comments.here's thinking the outrage was insincere

efanton

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You asked what FG supporters thoughts were.
I gave you the responses I get when I ask the same thing.
Whether knowingly or not, supporting FG is supporting big companies making money off the housing crisis at a loss to the tax payer IMO.

Sorry, your reply was a bit rambling and I was not sure of the point you were making

Calhoun

smurgen wrote: »

Funny to hear silence from FF and fg with respect to noone's comments.when it was a SF lads making a stupid comment they ensured the thread on it pulled on to 800 plus comments.here's thinking the outrage was insincere

I have a daughter who has autism, while i felt what she said was wrong and insensitive is it on the same level as the implied homophobia and racist comments from SF?

Additionally she was talking about her own party leader who has forgiven it, it potentially could damage her but you wont have FG comment on it other than that and maybe FF don't want to get involved in internal party stuff.

smurgen

Calhoun wrote: »

I have a daughter who has autism, while i felt what she said was wrong and insensitive is it on the same level as the implied homophobia and racist comments from SF?

Additionally she was talking about her own party leader who has forgiven it, it potentially could damage her but you wont have FG comment on it other than that and maybe FF don't want to get involved in internal party stuff.

Seems she's made several gaffes and hasn't been suspended.the same fine Gael folk were throwing all sort of accusations at SF because houlihan wasn't fired. Some hypocrites.

Calhoun

smurgen wrote: »

Seems she's made several gaffes and hasn't been suspended.the same fine Gael folk were throwing all sort of accusations at SF because houlihan wasn't fired. Some hypocrites.

Have the Gaffes been as bad as homophobia and racism? What is stopping SF from telling FG to put their money where their mouth is?

Did FG actually succeed in any point in influencing SF or is it the fact that his comments were so damaging to them that they had to do something.

Jinglejangle69

smurgen wrote: »

Seems she's made several gaffes and hasn't been suspended.the same fine Gael folk were throwing all sort of accusations at SF because houlihan wasn't fired. Some hypocrites.

Yeah it was just FG folk.

No one else.

Dionysis

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The go to is too many lazy people so they don't deserve a house. Then you point out they are getting houses anyway, just in the form of hotels and leased property. Then it's we've no money to build, then you point out we've money for leasing and hotels. Then the say we've nobody to build them, then you point out somebody is building the apartments and houses we are leasing and buying. Then they say there's no land, and you say where are they building all these apartments often on public land? Then they disappear...then a few days later it all starts again with a post about some single mother or such.
Why? See above.

Well maybe, They feel that building more houses will be seen as increased demand by the govt which by turn will increase cost of builds due to demand by the govt which will impact everyone else trying to build a house.
Also it will guarantee additional debt for the next 20 years that they don’t have the guaranteed money coming in to pay for.

Dionysis

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Yeah it was just FG folk.

No one else.

She abuses her leader, yet this is supposed to be treated the same as numerous sf candidates in the past being bullied by their own party?
Or where you referring to the sf person who abused someone else’s leader?

smurgen

Dionysis wrote: »

She abuses her leader, yet this is supposed to be treated the same as numerous sf candidates in the past being bullied by their own party?
Or where you referring to the sf person who abused someone else’s leader?

She used derogatory language and her "leader" swept it under the rug.many people seem annoyed at that.he's weak.and the party seems fine on derogatory language as long as it's their own using it.

Dionysis

smurgen wrote: »

She used derogatory language and her "leader" swept it under the rug.many people seem annoyed at that.he's weak.and the party seems fine on derogatory language as long as it's their own using it.

He’s not weak, he’s just not a fool to reprimand someone in public In the run up to an GE when he really doesn’t have too but that doesn’t suit you.
SF if I remember struggled to condemn many worse things, did that make their leaders weak, or were they just being cute?

smurgen

Dionysis wrote: »

He’s not weak, he’s just not a fool to reprimand someone in public In the run up to an GE when he really doesn’t have too but that doesn’t suit you.
SF if I remember struggled to condemn many worse things, did that make their leaders weak, or were they just being cute?

It's a case of hypocrisy.finnerbots don't like when they're held to the standards they set for other people.

Calhoun

So are both you lads homophobic and racist? Considering your trying very hard to equate the two incidents.

Paul_Mc1988

efanton wrote: »

Before I even start. Im am not advocating, or trying to persuade, that anyone vote for any particular party.

Where are we now. Lets be honest the country is in a total shambles.
We have 'services' that hardly merit the term. the health service, education, housing, special needs, childcare all far below the standard of what any developed country should expect.

You might argue, well we have the economy right isnt that something, and I would agree with you except that we have well educated, experience people working in fairly good jobs with a decent income and yet they cant find anywhere reasonable to live or even afford what is available.

We vote FF in, they make a balls up, then we vote FG in and they make another balls up, but by then we are told to forgive FF for their mistakes and the cycle repeats and repeats.

Is it not time to call a halt. I dont care what you individual political beliefs are, that's up to you and a personal issue as far as I am concerned. But is it not time that we refused to reelect parties or individual TD's that continually fail.
There will be the argument that if we dont vote FF or FG who else can we trust in government. To me that's very much the same as saying yes they are both bad, but because we allow them to act with impunity, they will carry on exactly as before with no lesson learnt, no improvement, no sanction.

Would an employer keep a member of staff despite them being total hopeless at their job? It will cost them money and inconvenience to replace them, they have no idea how a replacement employee will perform, but they will very definitely take action.

Would you continue to go to a shop or restaurant where the service is atrocious, because you dont know what the service in an alternative is like?
You might see reviews or hear stories, but inevitably you are either going to approach the management and say this is simply not good enough, or you are going to take a chance and try the other establishment.

Same for child care. If your child is in the care of someone that you deem unfit to look after your child you certainly are not going to let them continue looking after them even if the alternatives might not look as good.

We all hear how bad SF SD, People before profit(or what ever brand they are using this time round) , or the independents might be in government, yet the simple fact is no one really knows as they have never had that chance. All we have to go on is what other parties might claim or the opinions of those already biased against them.

Surely it is time to refuse to reelect any TD or minister that has failed, no matter which party they represent or what political party you personally might support.

Michael Martin was up to his neck in the fiasco that forced our country into beggary and austerity, and his reward after a year or two was to become party leader. Seriously if this was a soap opera or film most would find the plot totally unbelievable. Surely if FF we truly apologetic of the calamity they caused this country all those involved would have been removed as TD's let alone be allowed to stand as perspective ministers or a Taoiseach before a subsequent general election. I'm not bashing FF specifically here, we could say the same about current and previous ministers in Labour, FG or Greens.

To me the issue is simple. The cycle simply has to be broken at some point and its going to take a little bit of bravery or courage by those who have a vote.
The country is in a mess, its hardly likely that it could get significantly worse no matter who is elected, so is now the time to send a message that we expect parties (all of them) to clean up their act, get rid of those that fail, or we simply will not vote for them.

If nothing else, a bloody nose for FG,FF or indeed any party that was in a government and failed will make them and all parties take serious stock and be the impetus for serious reform and improved governance. The pantomime that Enda Kenny went through (remember him) promising total reform never happened.
I would be saying exactly the same about SF if they got into power and did not deliver what they promise. The next general election would be only a few years away, plenty time to clean house, and come back genuinely interested in performing better. With no party with an outright majority removing a government that is failing would be easier too.

If the vote for FF and FG and to a degree Labour (let's not forget they had a hand in it too), was significantly reduced, and the smaller parties got a bigger share, yes we would have no party capable of forming a government with an outright majority. This seems to work in many European countries, where parties agree common ground, and no party expects to automatically return to government. It would at least temper some of the extremely unpopular taxes, stealth charges, polices that seem to get squeezed through because a single party has an outright majority.
If there was no outright majority would TD's then be forced to work for the common good rather than the party they stand for or look specifically after those that financially support them.

I'm really posting here to get a feel for how people think. Are people prepare to take a chance, or are they simply happy to get more of the same constant disappointment.

As stated at the very top, Im not advocating any particular party, I'm hoping that people will simply post their views in a non party way (or as near as you can get on a political forum). Keep it civilised and as non party and non-partisan as possible.
Is there a mood there for significant change, or are we doomed to what essentially is a two part state with very little difference between them both in policy and standards?

FF and FG are the only ones proposing to put money back in my pocket as a middle income earner. That's why FG is getting my vote.

smurgen

Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »

FF and FG are the only ones proposing to put money back in my pocket as a middle income earner. That's why FG is getting my vote.

Fg didn't put money back in your pocket the last Few years.what makes ya believe they're gonna start now? Didn't renegotiate the terms of out bailout.didnt abolish USC and squandered any corporate tax windfalls.

Paul_Mc1988

smurgen wrote: »

Fg didn't put money back in your pocket the last Few years.what makes ya believe they're gonna start now? Didn't renegotiate the terms of out bailout.didnt abolish USC and squandered any corporate tax windfalls.

Na mate your wrong. They reduced USC and increased the higher rate tax band. That put money in my pocket.

Auguste Comte

smurgen wrote: »

Seems she's made several gaffes and hasn't been suspended.the same fine Gael folk were throwing all sort of accusations at SF because houlihan wasn't fired. Some hypocrites.

Oh she has form alright.

ELM327

Calhoun wrote: »

I have a daughter who has autism, while i felt what she said was wrong and insensitive is it on the same level as the implied homophobia and racist comments from SF?

Additionally she was talking about her own party leader who has forgiven it, it potentially could damage her but you wont have FG comment on it other than that and maybe FF don't want to get involved in internal party stuff.

As an adult with aspergers, which is on the autism scale, I had no issues with what she said.
Then again, I'm high functioning and often make light of my social awkwardness and shortcomings with humor. Perhaps those with more severe forms of autism are more impacted by the statement?


I mean, what she said was true, I (as an adult with autism spectrum disorder) am horrifically socially awkward, often miss out on subtle undertones or context, and yes, can struggle to understand empathy.


I despise the senator with a passion as she's a symptom of what's wrong with FG - but she's done nothing wrong here.

Field east

Granny15 wrote: »

We don’t have to identify anything in economic terms but in human terms. Anyone can see a runaway train is going to derail put the breaks on.

The assumption of demand which penetrates to the very most basic concepts in economics is false. It is based on consumer rationalism but you can’t measure human behaviour in purely money terms. All sorts of other drivers come into decision making that determine demand.

Don’t do the opposite but have common sense and see when people are milking the system (private property development) and ask them to spread it around or there will be riots. The market (or human demand) becomes distorted by greed.

Granny, what country/s or governments- past and present-would you suggest that best matches the kind of way that you think the kind of way society should be ‘managed’. ?There are a raft of ways out there to pick from over the centuries

Phoebas

She's a bit of a gob****e to have said what she did.

There is a simple remedy for anyone in Dublin Bay North who consider what she said to be seriously out of order - don't vote for her (not that she stood any chance anyway).

smurgen

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Oh she has form alright.

Christ looking for a rise in the morning after pill price and dumping 82,000 leaflets. Sounds like a right piece of work.

smurgen

Phoebas wrote: »

She's a bit of a gob****e to have said what she did.

There is a simple remedy for anyone in Dublin Bay North who consider what she said to be seriously out of order - don't vote for her (not that she stood any chance anyway).

Ah so it's up to Joe public to do the dirty work for FG? If they can't get rid of a long time dysfunctional person in their ranks such as Bailey and Noone how do you expect us for them to tackle the tough subjects and really stand up for the interests of Irish citizens?