Is it not time EVERYONE considers not voting for FF or FG in the upcoming election

smurgen

Michael Martin now flip flopping on rent freezes.wonder who are the shadowy figures in the background pulling his strings?

Edgware

SF gone ahead of FG in the polls. Fair old panic below in FG H.Q. now I'd say. They'll have to let Harris loose to tell us about the great job he is doing

smurgen

Edgware wrote: »

SF gone ahead of FG in the polls. Fair old panic below in FG H.Q. now I'd say. They'll have to let Harris loose to tell us about the great job he is doing

They'll have to defrost him first.

LillySV

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The alternatives to FF/FG are just too far Left for me, and do not fit in with my values at all.

There are no Right Wing parties that I know of and I wouldn't vote for them anyway. Just saying for balance.

This country has always been governed in general by straight down the middle parties. Sometimes looking after their mates, sometimes looking after those who feel they are "entitled".

Those left behind are people like me, who get nada, but pay for everything. Who looks after us? That is the conundrum.

Well said

Jinglejangle69

FF are getting the country handed back in a much much better state than they left it.

Lucky lads, let's hope they learned their lesson.

Although when I hear MM saying 200,000 houses to be built I remember exactly what got us into the mess in the first place and think deja vu.

Idbatterim

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

FF are getting the country handed back in a much much better state than they left it.

Lucky lads, let's hope they learned their lesson.

Although when I hear MM saying 200,000 houses to be built I remember exactly what got us into the mess in the first place and think deja vu.

regardless of who is in power, where will they get all the extra labour to build these homes? people who emigrated coming back etc, but coming back to what now? rip off housing, rip off marginal rate of tax etc. its catch 22...

dubrov

Idbatterim wrote:

regardless of who is in power, where will they get all the extra labour to build these homes? people who emigrated coming back etc, but coming back to what now? rip off housing, rip off marginal rate of tax etc. its catch 22...

They'll divert resources from the private sector so the total number of houses built will be the same. The only difference is the government will build a 200k house for 500k

rafatoni

Edgware wrote: »

SF gone ahead of FG in the polls. Fair old panic below in FG H.Q. now I'd say. They'll have to let Harris loose to tell us about the great job he is doing

Independent front page next week:

Monday - Gerry Adams was in the Ira
Tuesday - Maria Cahill 4 page pull out
Wednesday - Stacks family look for justice
Thursday - Jean Mconville

Idbatterim

I honestly just find that all the debates, the talks, I mean they are morons! Look, there is what other non banana republics do abd easy solutions, but this is ireland. We are unique "an irish solution , to an irish problem" This crisis is mainly confined to dublin , I dont propose on reclaiming land all along the dublin coast and calling it "D4 east, with sprawling low density housing, so FG dont have to worry about flooding the market with houses, reducing the value of their voters homes, which would be their primary concern. lets look at the costs, the government takes a lot in taxes. then you have construction costs. Raising the deposit is also problematic (I'd abolish stamp duty on new builds) getting the deposit together is very hard for a lot of people. You can easily recoup it from all the extra construction and lpt. One thing that should be allowed, in my opinion is possibly smaller, but certainly cheaper to construct apartments. The current requirement to have dual aspect, makes for a far more inefficient use of space, believe me a well located, warm, cosy apartment v the **** alternative. People will accept a little less natural light, the only room natural light really matters is the living room / kitchen. You can put in full length walls of glass now with its high thermal efficiency...

The market would then supply these units hand over fist. currently you just get very big apartments, that couple or single people on average wages cant afford and if we are relying on the state to ever solve an issue here, well ... LOL! LOL! Its not morally right, to put people in fcuked positions, and not change any of the issues , that are causing this!

the councils could also look at all current zoning and encourage or stop any more commercial development, if the site is also suitable for residential...

Idbatterim

good article below...

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/sarah-carey-voting-to-change-for-changes-sake-is-just-political-tinder-38916152.html

RTÉ Radio 1 called, asking if I'd be available for election analysis next Sunday - the day of the count.

I accepted and then promptly panicked. While I hold strong opinions on politics, I'm a long way from Noel Whelan-style pronouncements on transfers on the eighth count in Longford-Westmeath that "those votes won't cross the Shannon".

So I began doing some homework, beginning with a glance at the results of previous elections.

I had completely forgotten that in 2011, Labour won 37 seats. Now it is reduced to a mere seven and struggling to hang on to those.

The sheer volatility of recent elections only goes to show the incredible risk people take when they decide on a career in politics. "Resilience" is a popular buzzword these days, and it takes some resilience to give up a decent career and throw yourself at the mercy of a fickle electorate.

I despise fickleness. For me, loyalty is a core value. There's no credit in jumping on a bandwagon in the good days. Loyalty derives from compassion and mercy. To stick by someone requires an understanding and forgiveness of flaws, because even the best of people can struggle or fall down in hard times.

So I think about the people who voted Labour in 2011 and promptly abandoned them in 2016 and wonder - what did they think was going to happen?

Presumably they voted for "change" in a backlash against established parties such as Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. But that vote came at a time when we were officially bankrupt and depending on, if not kindness, then the mercy of strangers.

So, while Yanis Varoufakis made everything worse in Greece by selling a fairy story of rebellion against capitalism, Labour and Fine Gael knuckled down and dragged us out of bailout in record time.

Some claimed, and still claim, this amounted to capitulation. They still drool over the rock star Greek finance minister who ditched politics and rode out of town in his leather jacket and shades, leaving the Greeks foraging for food in bins.

Do those who complained back then recognise now that we took the better path?

The Nobel Prize-winning economists Abhijit Banerjee and Esther Duflo say that "the best economics is frequently the least strident". So it is with politics.

The speed with which the economy recovered under the leadership of Brendan Howlin and Enda Kenny demonstrated that pragmatism and hard work, not strident demands, is the path to success. There was no magic solution. There never is a magic solution.

In 2016, those fickle floating voters once more sought salvation in change.

Outspoken Independents and popular socialists sucked in those gullible enough to believe that straight-talking and emoting count as policy-making.

But fine words don't translate into miracles. All we got was paralysis.

And now we face a new election in which apparently people are still seeking change. This time we are not in a trough of economic disaster, but the rut of success.

Our problems are not those of deprivation but excess. There aren't enough houses. Traffic ruins the quality of our lives. Parts of our health service are working well but the lack of beds and doctors creates bottlenecks.

People are frustrated, wondering why the problems that government should solve get worse instead of better. Surely change is the solution?

But change to what?

Look at America and Britain and the disasters of Trump and Brexit.

Both were driven by large swathes of people who gave up on the establishment. Their lives were so stuck, they figured that if the current lot couldn't solve the problem, surely change was the answer.

At the very least, it couldn't be any worse, could it? But it could. And so they voted for Trump in all his vile recklessness.

They voted for Brexit - an act of extraordinary self-harm. Those who believed that any change was better than no change haven't yet accepted they were wrong. That's because it is easier to blame others than admit one's mistakes, but also because economies move so slowly that the consequences of policies are slow to take effect. So how will those with this insatiable appetite for change vote this time? At this point, both the Greens and Sinn Féin are riding high on the change wave.

Let's say they do well, and let's say either or both end up in government - anything is possible at this stage.

Sinn Féin has launched a 1970s-style manifesto packed with outlandish spending that can never be delivered. Believe in that manifesto and you'll believe anything.

Other people hope that the Greens can turn the climate ship around.

But will they be the new Labour in a few years' time? In on a high tide in one election, out in a rage of impatience the next?

And so the floating voters irritate me.

Jumping from party to party hoping this is the one that will work. It's political Tinder. The 'Love Island' of governance.

When I join the other analysts on RTÉ Radio 1 in eight days' time, we'll watch the votes being counted and wonder what it all means. I say you can count on this: if you vote for an easy answer to a complex question, then the answer is probably wrong. Also, if you keep changing, by the next election, there'll be no one left to change to.

ThunbergsAreGo

Idbatterim wrote: »

regardless of who is in power, where will they get all the extra labour to build these homes? people who emigrated coming back etc, but coming back to what now? rip off housing, rip off marginal rate of tax etc. its catch 22...

And where will all these houses be? What mix will they be?

All these we'll build houses is populist bull ****

ThunbergsAreGo

I Am The Law wrote: »

Which will be decided on how people vote, that's the thread subject.

Vote for FF is a vote for FG.

Vote for FG is a vote for FF.

Well is that not true of all parties? Everyone of them will need FF or FG to get into power.

Bannasidhe

Idbatterim wrote: »

good article below...

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/sarah-carey-voting-to-change-for-changes-sake-is-just-political-tinder-38916152.html

I think it's 'good' only insofar as it describes everything that is wrong imho.
Blind loyalty meaning there is no learning from mistakes made.

From TDs to 'life long voters' who put the party before the country we have been repeating the same cycle over and over again and nothing changes or ever will while we do that.

Why should TDs or FF/FG governments change their ways if folk are going to vote for them anyway out of 'loyalty'?

Idbatterim

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

And where will all these houses be? What mix will they be?

All these we'll build houses is populist bull ****

In fairness, there are good national plans, on where this new development should take place, mostly in our current towns and "cities" . In dublin, they are rezoning lots of the ancient industrial estates, some near luas for residential. These are close in to the city centre and on good transport links.

They could house hundreds of thousands if they reclaimed the port land, which is worth billions... there has been talk of moving it out of the centre, as they have done in other countries. It even surface again recently. You could just keep the cruise ship aspect there and possibly the passenger ferries (not sure of logistics on that one).

smurgen

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/gardai-decide-against-fai-probe-corporate-watchdog-odce-continues-probe-974752.html

So FAI getting off a criminal investigation while getting a 20 M EUR bailout. Can't say I have much faith in the ODCE the same crowd the fudged the Sean Fitzpatrick investigation. It seems FG are happy with criminality as long as it's white collar or the big boys doing it.meanwhile they're happy to run stupid welfare cheat campaigns that have little or no effect.

Snow Garden

Idbatterim wrote: »

regardless of who is in power, where will they get all the extra labour to build these homes? people who emigrated coming back etc, but coming back to what now? rip off housing, rip off marginal rate of tax etc. its catch 22...

The fact is that many Eastern Europeans who work in construction are going back home now because it's too expensive to live here.

smurgen

Snow Garden wrote: »

The fact is that many Eastern Europeans who work in construction are going back home now because it's too expensive to live here.

The housing costs are pushing up the cost of living and is filtering into wage demands. Even the multi nationals are saying it. It is making us less competitive.

headtheball14

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I think it's 'good' only insofar as it describes everything that is wrong imho.
Blind loyalty meaning there is no learning from mistakes made.

From TDs to 'life long voters' who put the party before the country we have been repeating the same cycle over and over again and nothing changes or ever will while we do that.

Why should TDs or FF/FG governments change their ways if folk are going to vote for them anyway out of 'loyalty'?

Written by Sarah Carey daughter of fine Gael councillor William Carey? The same Sarah Carey rebuked by the moriarty tribunal for her political leak which she denied until she admitted it. Hmmm big guns all out in force aren't they.

headtheball14

they always say it's the cover up of scandals rather than the scandal that scuppers politicians. Have to say the fine gael spin machine currently working overtime is actually making me think if voting sinn fein for first time in my life!

Bannasidhe

headtheball14 wrote: »

they always say it's the cover up of scandals rather than the scandal that scuppers politicians. Have to say the fine gael spin machine currently working overtime is actually making me think if voting sinn fein for first time in my life!

The only reason I'm not throwing them a 3rd pref is their lack of support for animal welfare legislation.
They'll never get a first or second off me but could possibly get the no. 3 tick if they took a pro-animal welfare stance.

Odhinn

headtheball14 wrote: »

they always say it's the cover up of scandals rather than the scandal that scuppers politicians. Have to say the fine gael spin machine currently working overtime is actually making me think if voting sinn fein for first time in my life!

Maith an fear.

KaneToad

headtheball14 wrote: »

Written by Sarah Carey daughter of fine Gael councillor William Carey? The same Sarah Carey rebuked by the moriarty tribunal for her political leak which she denied until she admitted it. Hmmm big guns all out in force aren't they.

The same Sarah Carey, whose Facebook was "hacked" to include personal attacks on the facial appearance of a prominent newspaper editor?

mada999

CageWager wrote: »

Try living in America where it costs you 100k for an emergency operation, 100k for a basic college degree, etc.

The longer FG are in power the more chance of the above happening imo

CageWager wrote: »

Housing and health are incredibly complex problems to solve but the left wing parties want to make it seem like it could all be solved overnight.

nah maybe try and make inroads in two terms in govt...

CageWager wrote: »

They want a world class health service without paying high tax.

FG have been in power for 8 years plus and the health system seems to be worse now than ever... They are wasting a serious amount of cash on a badly planned Children's hospital ff sake.

CageWager wrote: »

They want to consume massive quantities of water without paying for it.

Who wants to consume massive quantities of water and why ? for the craic is it ? Stand there with the tap on all day for the craic is it ? One of FG's manifesto pieces in previous elections was to get rid of "Quangos".... then they went and constructed one of the biggest "billing companies" ever and spent a lot of tax money on it. Remember there's more wastage by leaks in the current pipe system than anything else. Maybe they should have used the big quango money on fixing these first... but nah.....set up the company, get yer mates in, give em a load of cash.... dont actually fix stuff.... any if you get a call out - sure just send the lads in the council out to fix it.... now that is wastage....

CageWager wrote: »

They want climate change while still driving their 2.4 kids around in the 4 litre diesel Range Rover.

Who are these people you speak of ? if you are on about people on the dole then i wouldnt say too many have 4 litre Range Rover's

Midlife crisis man

Mary Lou said it best, when refering to MM and Leo, she said "listen to these men, you'd never think one crashed the economy and that the other is so fiscally responsible that he's producing the most expensive hospital in the world"

Nuff said.

Edgware

Midlife crisis man wrote: »

Mary Lou said it best, when refering to MM and Leo, she said "listen to these men, you'd never think one crashed the economy and that the other is so fiscally responsible that he's producing the most expensive hospital in the world"

Nuff said.

At least Sinn Fein will give us lots of "free stuff"
Why has anyone a problem with that?

Idbatterim

Edgware wrote: »

At least Sinn Fein will give us lots of "free stuff"
Why has anyone a problem with that?

Because some of us will be paying for this free stuff for others and not benefitting ourselves

efanton

Idbatterim wrote: »

Because some of us will be paying for this free stuff for others and not benefitting ourselves

Do you pay for home insurance or car insurance?
Are you that bad a driver that you know that you will be making a claim each year?

We contribute to a bigger pot because we know that individually if things go wrong we could never afford them ourselves, not because we expect a guaranteed return.

God forbid you, your wife or a child was in need is emergency health care you would expect that healthcare to be provided in a timely and professional basis without significant delay.
You would not expect them to ask you have you sufficient wealth to provide payment for that care, or the crippling bills that parents in the USA are faced with each year. A broken leg for instance could cost anywhere from a minimum of $2,500 to $18,000 depending on the complexity of the break in the USA.

We do not live in the USA, we live in a state where we each contribute to ensure that everyone's medical, educational , social and welfare needs are met, not knowing whether we ourselves might need those services.

Far too many people are calling for a privatised state, where we each pay for our own needs and nothing else, which would be fair enough except that most that are advocating this simply could not afford it.

So no you are not giving FREE STUFF away to others you are contributing to a social system where everyone's needs are supposed to be guaranteed to be met, when those needs arise. None of us are fortune tellers and no one can tell what lays ahead for us, whether we are rich or poor.
Some might pay more than they get out, some might pay less than they get out, but the principle is it is there for you when you yourself might need it.

I ask you to think of it this way and ask yourself this simple question. Would you drive uninsured if the law did not dictate that you had to have 3rd party insurance?
If you reply to this comment I do expect you to answer that question first.

Calhoun

efanton wrote: »

Do you pay for home insurance or car insurance?
Are you that bad a driver that you know that you will be making a claim each year?

We contribute to a bigger pot because we know that individually if things go wrong we could never afford them ourselves, not because we expect a guaranteed return.

God forbid you, your wife or a child was in need is emergency health care you would expect that healthcare to be provided in a timely and professional basis without significant delay.
You would not expect them to ask you have you sufficient wealth to provide payment for that care, or the crippling bills that parents in the USA are faced with each year. A broken leg for instance could cost anywhere from a minimum of $2,500 to $18,000 depending on the complexity of the break in the USA.

We do not live in the USA, we live in a state where we each contribute to ensure that everyone's medical, educational , social and welfare needs are met, not knowing whether we ourselves might need those services.

Far too many people are calling for a privatised state, where we each pay for our own needs and nothing else, which would be fair enough except that most that are advocating this simply could not afford it.

So no you are not giving FREE STUFF away to others you are contributing to a social system where everyone's needs are supposed to be guaranteed to be met, when those needs arise. None of us are fortune tellers and no one can tell what lays ahead for us, whether we are rich or poor.
Some might pay more than they get out, some might pay less than they get out, but the principle is it is there for you when you yourself might need it.

I ask you to think of it this way and ask yourself this simple question. Would you drive uninsured if the law did not dictate that you had to have 3rd party insurance?
If you reply to this comment I do expect you to answer that question first.

Your not listening, if we use your example we the squeezed middle are paying for this insurance. You could say we have fully comprehension with all the bells and whistles but when it comes to getting support when needed its not there.

If we are to have a social insurance based model like your saying shouldn't everyone pay and should we not expand it out to all? The one good thing about the USC was it was fair and those who would be benefiting most had to pay something.

In my families case, i have a young daughter who is in need of that social insurance your calling out. Guess what i have to deal with? a system that is down right hostile and combative so don't tell me that those of us who are paying into it will benefit from it when we need it.

James Brown

Edgware wrote: »

At least Sinn Fein will give us lots of "free stuff"
Why has anyone a problem with that?

Is this while taxing you? The rhetoric is eating itself.

Idbatterim

efanton wrote: »

Do you pay for home insurance or car insurance?
Are you that bad a driver that you know that you will be making a claim each year?

We contribute to a bigger pot because we know that individually if things go wrong we could never afford them ourselves, not because we expect a guaranteed return.

God forbid you, your wife or a child was in need is emergency health care you would expect that healthcare to be provided in a timely and professional basis without significant delay.
You would not expect them to ask you have you sufficient wealth to provide payment for that care, or the crippling bills that parents in the USA are faced with each year. A broken leg for instance could cost anywhere from a minimum of $2,500 to $18,000 depending on the complexity of the break in the USA.

We do not live in the USA, we live in a state where we each contribute to ensure that everyone's medical, educational , social and welfare needs are met, not knowing whether we ourselves might need those services.

Far too many people are calling for a privatised state, where we each pay for our own needs and nothing else, which would be fair enough except that most that are advocating this simply could not afford it.

So no you are not giving FREE STUFF away to others you are contributing to a social system where everyone's needs are supposed to be guaranteed to be met, when those needs arise. None of us are fortune tellers and no one can tell what lays ahead for us, whether we are rich or poor.
Some might pay more than they get out, some might pay less than they get out, but the principle is it is there for you when you yourself might need it.

I ask you to think of it this way and ask yourself this simple question. Would you drive uninsured if the law did not dictate that you had to have 3rd party insurance?
If you reply to this comment I do expect you to answer that question first.

I probably wouldn’t drive uninsured , assuming if I had accident , I could be forced to sell assets etc. we go round in circles here , you all believe in the system here. I don’t , I believe in systems more sling Germany’s line. You get paid out basecon what you paid in. We have a flat rate that doesn’t discriminate, doesn’t discriminate against those scratching their ass their whole lives and those who have contributed a lot and this has done nothing but tile them out of medical cards etc. the system here is a farce. No other country operates anything like ours