Is it not time EVERYONE considers not voting for FF or FG in the upcoming election

Field east

SantaCruz wrote: »

So success would be:

1. Eliminating homelessness (of both the on-the-street variety, and the folks who can't get council houses)
2. Building hundreds of thousands of homes
3. Eliminating unemployment
4. Even higher taxes for higher earners without driving those workers out of the country
5. Higher taxes on big multinationals without driving them out of the country
6. No waiting lists in hospitals
7. First-rate hospitals in every county, with first-rate staff and services
8. Pay rises for public sector workers
9. A united Ireland
10. Ireland firmly within or without the EU (depending on whether it's present day Sinn Fein, or Sinn Fein from a decade ago in power)

Have I missed anything?

Maybe something around zero tolerance and especially in relation to bank/ ATM robberies, protection money, etc.?

SantaCruz

efanton wrote: »

I only wish I was as young as you imply.

Only 3 in my year at school remained in Ireland. 2 farmers sons and a lad that was lucky enough to be accepted for Garda training college. The rest spread to the world within months.

I left school in 1984. Was smart enough to qualify for 3rd level and got the results to allow that in the NIHE Limerick, but there was no way that was going to happen. Only the very wealthy could afford 3rd level education back then.
For my 18th birthday I got a a birthday card with a bus/ferry ticket to Victoria station in London, and £250 sterling to give me a start. I honestly dont know how my parents managed to save that sort of money, everyone was completely broke and living from one pay packet to the next.

Got myself some decent jobs in the UK, saved my money, paid for further education out of my own pocket and returned to Ireland in the mid nineties.
Only to see not much had changed. Yes the economy was on the up, but all the same mistakes and mismanagement in government were still there.
By 1999 I could see the writing on the wall, my rent was sky rocketing, and I told my friends thy were idiots to put themselves in so much debt to buy a house that they were bringing their own sandwiches into work for lunch and couldnt even afford a few pints on a Friday night. Low and behold Ireland was bust again a few years later but in the meantime I had found work I Europe and was living there.

Came back in 2011. And do you know what, FF and FG are still playing the same game, still telling the world we have such a great economy, and still cant deliver the promises they make every election.

So do I remember, absolutely, and I can say with certainty that while this country is run by FF and FG nothing will ever change. It will be boom and bust til the end of time, each time the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer.

What this country needs is for another party to be in government, if only to give FG and FF the serious kick up the arse they need to finally get their acts together and realise that when they go into government they have to deliver their program of government that they were elected to carry out if they are fortunate enough to win a general election. Also that public money is a valuable resource and it cant be squandered in the way it consistently has.

I have been fortunate enough in life to always be one of those that pay significant amounts of tax in the higher tax band, both here and in the UK.
I dont begrudge paying that tax, not for one minute, but I do begrudge party's that make promises and never deliver. Either they were deliberately deceiving the electorate at general elections to get voted in, or were totally incompetent. In both cases they should be fired and never allowed back again in government unless they remove those ministers and taoiseach's that failed in both their duties and promises.
I would say exactly the same thing about SF if they failed in government. But they havent, so I will support them in this general election and any other party that has yet to fail in government.
Is that clear enough for you?

Making excuses for failure just isnt on.
You claim that the economy is all important, yet this government has squandered billions of euro.

Forget about the unemployed that never worked and probably never will, they are a tiny problem this country will always have no matter which party is in power.
Concentrate on the big issues, housing, education, health and making Ireland a safe place for ordinary decent people whether they be rich or poor.
FG have failed abysmally at all of them in the last nine years, and I wouldn't trust FF under any circumstances while they propose to put the very ministers and leaders responsible for the crash back into government.

Of course, the underlying assumption here - presumably based on your experience in the UK - is that there are political parties out there in the real world who deliver EVERYTHING they aim, achieve all their goals, and have created some sort of nirvana that is much better than Ireland.

Is this correct?

SantaCruz

Idbatterim wrote: »

Ff aren’t tax cuts. They have spoken of welfare increases for all

They can do both, by simply borrowing the money.

Edgware

[PHP][/PHP]

SantaCruz wrote: »

They can do both, by simply borrowing the money.

An excellent policy. Welcome to Venezuela

dubrov

efanton wrote: »

By 1999 I could see the writing on the wall, my rent was sky rocketing, and I told my friends thy were idiots to put themselves in so much debt to buy a house that they were bringing their own sandwiches into work for lunch and couldnt even afford a few pints on a Friday night. Low and behold Ireland was bust again a few years later but in the meantime I had found work I Europe and was living there.

In retrospect, your advice was pretty poor. Anyone who bought in 1999 would be on the pig's back now

SantaCruz

dubrov wrote: »

In retrospect, your advice was pretty poor. Anyone who bought in 1999 would be on the pig's back now

Good point. I reckon buying any time up to 2004 would have been pretty handy, unless you were working in construction and lost your job in the bust. Even then, there have only been a thousand or two repossessions in the whole country, a country with nearly 2 million dwellings.

(numbers approximate, from memory)

Mortelaro

efanton wrote: »

I only wish I was as young as you imply.

Only 3 in my year at school remained in Ireland. 2 farmers sons and a lad that was lucky enough to be accepted for Garda training college. The rest spread to the world within months.

I left school in 1984. Was smart enough to qualify for 3rd level and got the results to allow that in the NIHE Limerick, but there was no way that was going to happen. Only the very wealthy could afford 3rd level education back then.
For my 18th birthday I got a a birthday card with a bus/ferry ticket to Victoria station in London, and £250 sterling to give me a start. I honestly dont know how my parents managed to save that sort of money, everyone was completely broke and living from one pay packet to the next.

Got myself some decent jobs in the UK, saved my money, paid for further education out of my own pocket and returned to Ireland in the mid nineties.
Only to see not much had changed. Yes the economy was on the up, but all the same mistakes and mismanagement in government were still there.
By 1999 I could see the writing on the wall, my rent was sky rocketing, and I told my friends thy were idiots to put themselves in so much debt to buy a house that they were bringing their own sandwiches into work for lunch and couldnt even afford a few pints on a Friday night. Low and behold Ireland was bust again a few years later but in the meantime I had found work I Europe and was living there.

Came back in 2011. And do you know what, FF and FG are still playing the same game, still telling the world we have such a great economy, and still cant deliver the promises they make every election.

So do I remember, absolutely, and I can say with certainty that while this country is run by FF and FG nothing will ever change. It will be boom and bust til the end of time, each time the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer.

What this country needs is for another party to be in government, if only to give FG and FF the serious kick up the arse they need to finally get their acts together and realise that when they go into government they have to deliver their program of government that they were elected to carry out if they are fortunate enough to win a general election. Also that public money is a valuable resource and it cant be squandered in the way it consistently has.

I have been fortunate enough in life to always be one of those that pay significant amounts of tax in the higher tax band, both here and in the UK.
I dont begrudge paying that tax, not for one minute, but I do begrudge party's that make promises and never deliver. Either they were deliberately deceiving the electorate at general elections to get voted in, or were totally incompetent. In both cases they should be fired and never allowed back again in government unless they remove those ministers and taoiseach's that failed in both their duties and promises.
I would say exactly the same thing about SF if they failed in government. But they havent, so I will support them in this general election and any other party that has yet to fail in government.
Is that clear enough for you?

Making excuses for failure just isnt on.
You claim that the economy is all important, yet this government has squandered billions of euro.

Forget about the unemployed that never worked and probably never will, they are a tiny problem this country will always have no matter which party is in power.
Concentrate on the big issues, housing, education, health and making Ireland a safe place for ordinary decent people whether they be rich or poor.
FG have failed abysmally at all of them in the last nine years, and I wouldn't trust FF under any circumstances while they propose to put the very ministers and leaders responsible for the crash back into government.

As someone who graduated in the early 80s,all of my class emigrated
In 2019,crash cured, Engineers are coming out of college to 40k basic salaries to start IN Ireland
Big difference
No comparison
Better management
Better lesson learning even in the face of human greed promoting manifesto bidding
I do not want this economy wrecked, tweaked to be half wrecked or changed at all
The fed up bubble is spreading like wildfire though it seems
We are being led by those blind folded hoards into being fucked

Edgware

dubrov wrote: »

In retrospect, your advice was pretty poor. Anyone who bought in 1999 would be on the pig's back now

Don't let facts come in the way of a good spoof.
No-one believes his codswallop

Field east

Trizo wrote: »

FG would have just as likely crashed the economy as FF did. I seem to recall them saying at the time we should spend more and add to our property boom.

Our current political system , re two or more parties, you could say started off at around 1921. Since then it has either been a FF or FG gov or with the support of on or two small parties. There has been a number of gov changes between the two main parties. So we have plenty of examples of why the voters decided to change gov each time it happened - probably 7 or 8 times. From memory, I think that in nearly in all of the cases the economy was going downhill when FF was in power and FG was voted in to clean up the mess- the latest one being the gov change to address the last economic downturn. FG in all cases handed back the economy in much better financial condition. Having now cleaned up the last mess and stabilised stabilized the economy with a good growth rate.
Will history repeat itself and the voters hand back a healthy economy back to a FF led government.
The MEDIA IS HIGHLIGHTING THE POINT THAT , APPARENTLY, THE VOTERS WANT CHANGE. One possible change option is to put in a FG led government to continue on managing the country’s finances after having stabilized them. FG has not been given that chance up to now. It is of interest that the voters did not put a FF led government back in at the last election - was it because the economy was still in a perilous state and needed FG in place to finish the clean up?

smurgen

SantaCruz wrote: »

Of course, the underlying assumption here - presumably based on your experience in the UK - is that there are political parties out there in the real world who deliver EVERYTHING they aim, achieve all their goals, and have created some sort of nirvana that is much better than Ireland.

Is this correct?

Christ you don't have a clue

smurgen

Edgware wrote: »

So according to you the thousands of school leavers who went to college in 1984 came from the very wealthy families? That's is pure and utter rubbish and anyone who looked at the background of the students then would know that. You should have put those comments out on You Tube with some lad playing a sad song on the fiddle

And good luck with that S.F. not squandering your tax money policy

Says the trump support

Mortelaro

Have FF ever been out of power for 10 years?
Looks like they're not going to break that duck as they will be back in after 9 years this time
Ireland gave them just a suspended sentence and is hurrying up the garda economic crimes vetting to a pass

Maewyn Succat

A small part of me would like to see a Sinn Fein led government just to show people how much damage they could do to an economy with their policies. I am lucky enough that I would have the option to emigrate should this happen.
To be honest I would only envisage a Sinn Fein led government lasting for a year or two at most before a motion of no confidence is called on their entire government.
Do Sinn Fein supporters actually believe that they would be able to handle a situation where both FF and FG are their opposition?

Idbatterim

Maewyn Succat wrote: »

A small part of me would like to see a Sinn Fein led government just to show people how much damage they could do to an economy with their policies. I am lucky enough that I would have the option to emigrate should this happen.
To be honest I would only envisage a Sinn Fein led government lasting for a year or two at most before a motion of no confidence is called on their entire government.
Do Sinn Fein supporters actually believe that they would be able to handle a situation where both FF and FG are their opposition?

Currently it looks like there are three forces in Irish politics with roughly similar support. Sf have to get ff or fg onboard to form a government

Good article below
https://m.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/gene-kerrigan-this-is-a-long-term-crisis-slowly-unfolding-38918195.html

SantaCruz

smurgen wrote: »

Christ you don't have a clue

Great point. :pac:

Maewyn Succat

Idbatterim wrote: »

Currently it looks like there are three forces in Irish politics with roughly similar support. Sf have to get ff or fg onboard to form a government

Good article below
https://m.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/gene-kerrigan-this-is-a-long-term-crisis-slowly-unfolding-38918195.html

I really can't take much that Gene Kerrigan takes seriously to be honest.

Similar support does not amount to similar amounts of seats in this case. The maximum number of seats that Sinn Fein can get is 42 which automatically puts them in a weaker position than either FF or FG regardless of how much support they have.

olestoepoke

Maewyn Succat wrote: »

I really can't take much that Gene Kerrigan takes seriously to be honest.

Similar support does not amount to similar amounts of seats in this case. The maximum number of seats that Sinn Fein can get is 42 which automatically puts them in a weaker position than either FF or FG regardless of how much support they have.

Seems the recent rise of Sinn Fein has some people rattled. Imagine even considering that they would get 42 seats a few years ago. Amazing.

Idbatterim

IF it’s ffg get in again and do their confidence and supply bull**** , they are half a term away (assuming they do nothing ) which is as you can epect , from even the moderates and some of their long term supporters finally throwing in the towel and giving advice or someone else a vote.

I Am The Law

Larsso30 wrote: »

Yes but then you and me and our kids are left to deal with the Consequences of that....

It's always easy to be the opposition, but sinn fein say very little to inspire me they are any better than status quo and I am desperate for change. Sadly there is zero viable alternatives

You mean our kids who can't afford homes now because of FG FF polices?

SantaCruz

olestoepoke wrote: »

Seems the recent rise of Sinn Fein has some people rattled. Imagine even considering that they would get 42 seats a few years ago. Amazing.

Same as the rise of UKIP rattled people in the UK, I guess. And their fears have been vindicated.

SantaCruz

I Am The Law wrote: »

You mean our kids who can't afford homes now because of FG FF polices?

A side effect of rising incomes is rising house prices. I imagine as our incomes fall, prices will indeed come down, but there will be less money to actually build the houses.

is_that_so

SantaCruz wrote: »

A side effect of rising incomes is rising house prices. I imagine as our incomes fall, prices will indeed come down, but there will be less money to actually build the houses.

There is a more solid theory that low interest rates and access to cheap money affects house prices far more. The CB rules are also doing their part in saving people from themselves.

SantaCruz

is_that_so wrote: »

There is a more solid theory that low interest rates and access to cheap money affects house prices far more. The CB rules are also doing their part in saving people from themselves.

Well yes, I wasn't addressing the whole economy - just pointing out that as we are at more or less full employment now, and incomes are higher than ever, things with fairly inelastic supply and elastic demand are going to get more expensive.

Jinglejangle69

I Am The Law wrote: »

You mean our kids who can't afford homes now because of FG FF polices?

21,000 houses last year and 25,000 this year must have noone living in them so.

olestoepoke

Leo scaremongering yesterday. He said that Sinn Fein's popularity and possible success in the election will make it difficult to form a government in the coming months. He said that this will detrimental to crucial trade negotiations with Britain. He may have a point but also comes across as desperation on his part. Trying to scare people away from voting Sinn Fein. I don't have any preference but I have to admit this is entertaining to watch.

Jinglejangle69

olestoepoke wrote: »

Leo scaremongering yesterday. He said that Sinn Fein's popularity and possible success in the election will make it difficult to form a government in the coming months. He said that this will detrimental to crucial trade negotiations with Britain. He may have a point but also comes across as desperation on his part. Trying to scare people away from voting Sinn Fein. I don't have any preference but I have to admit this is entertaining to watch.

Sure all parties try to scare people from voting anyone else.

Do you watch the debates?

Come on that's a given!!

SantaCruz

olestoepoke wrote: »

Leo scaremongering yesterday. He said that Sinn Fein's popularity and possible success in the election will make it difficult to form a government in the coming months. He said that this will detrimental to crucial trade negotiations with Britain. He may have a point but also comes across as desperation on his part. Trying to scare people away from voting Sinn Fein. I don't have any preference but I have to admit this is entertaining to watch.

And on the Sinn Fein side, they pretend to have all the answers, despite hailing from a hard-left political ideology that has failed everywhere it has been implemented.

I'm not sure I'd be taking the same approach as Varadkar here (I'd happily go into coalition with Sinn Fein and let the public see that they are just making promises the same as everyone else).

Jinglejangle69

SantaCruz wrote: »

And on the Sinn Fein side, they pretend to have all the answers, despite hailing from a hard-left political ideology that has failed everywhere it has been implemented.

I'm not sure I'd be taking the same approach as Varadkar here (I'd happily go into coalition with Sinn Fein and let the public see that they are just making promises the same as everyone else).

And when SF are asked where they will get the 30,000 extra workers needed to build there 100,000 social houses they say ah sure they will come home from oz and NZ and people believe that as a credible plan.

Madness

McMurphy

Trizo wrote: »

People posting on here about giving SF a chance and sure if it doesn’t work out well no worries ... eh no your obviously too young to remember the last crash or it didn’t affect you.

Too young to remember the crash that happened ten years ago (there abouts) but leo and co will just stop short of waving corpses about from the troubles, oblivious to the fact many of the young voters wouldn't even have been born with the GFA was implemented.

ThunbergsAreGo

olestoepoke wrote: »

Leo scaremongering yesterday. He said that Sinn Fein's popularity and possible success in the election will make it difficult to form a government in the coming months. He said that this will detrimental to crucial trade negotiations with Britain. He may have a point but also comes across as desperation on his part. Trying to scare people away from voting Sinn Fein. I don't have any preference but I have to admit this is entertaining to watch.

Is he scaremongering or does he have a point which is it?

He's right, having three similar sized parties, all of which oppose each other for various reasons makes the formation of the next government much more difficult