Is it not time EVERYONE considers not voting for FF or FG in the upcoming election

wexfordman2

The problem is, that the next government will have either ff or FG at its head.

Been historically a FF voter, but not since the crash, and cant see myself returning any time soon, especially with Martin at its head and the likes of Willie O Dea.

What I dislike intensely about FG, is housing, health and pension.

Housing
A long term problem, I certainly.dont see FF being in any way more.competent, if not worse

HEALTH
Look, we have had decades of the same.problems in health, whether headed by FF, fg, pdf or another, even with labour in coalition
The problem with health, hasn't been sorted by any party, for a reason, they all refuse to tackle the issue which is fundamental root and branch reform from top to bottom, including unions and public sector unions.

None of the parties will tackle.what needs to be tackled, and it's about time the public started looking at the common denominator. We have had a dozen ministers for health, across every political party possible, and the problems still remain.

Pension
I abhor the increased pension age. Something introduced by FF btw, and continued and supported by FG. Fg are at least honest and sticking to their guns, FF, created the increase in retirement age, and for this election have said that they will "review" it, and also have committed to increasing the state pension payment by 5 euro a week every year for the next five years.
So on one hand, ff increase retirement age due to the pension time bomb, and on the other throw money at it. Hypocrites.

So,.the pro FG bit, something I never thought I would be posting.

Brexit
Leo and simon have been an excellent team representing Ireland in the face of brexit. I dont want that to change, especially hearing the latest brain farts from BJ this week. They have done us proud and represented us with it.ist professionally.

Social Reform
FG gave us SSm abortion and further reduced the divorce holding time. I cant believe I am saying this but their liberal credentials are second to none compared to all other parties.

Just by 2 cents. My voting strategy will be to do everything in my power to keep Martin away from the taoiseach office, while tempering FG on the pension issue.

Does this make sense, am I actually about to vote FG and SF ? Am I insane ?

Edgware

"F.G and F.F. trying to scare people away from voting S.F"

What do the S.F. supporters expect them to do? Bring out the pipe bands and march them up to vote for S.F.?

olestoepoke

Edgware wrote: »

"F.G and F.F. trying to scare people away from voting S.F"

What do the S.F. supporters expect them to do? Bring out the pipe bands and march them up to vote for S.F.?

No, but it is great to see them getting hot around the collar.

McMurphy

Edgware wrote: »

"F.G and F.F. trying to scare people away from voting S.F"

What do the S.F. supporters expect them to do? Bring out the pipe bands and march them up to vote for S.F.?

Even that might be more palatable to the general population than bringing them out to commemorate the Tans as Charlie and Leo have discovered.:pac:

smurgen

I absolutely cannot wait to see Simon sniveling Harris dumped out of the job. And Eoghan murphy.

wexfordman2

Edgware wrote: »

"F.G and F.F. trying to scare people away from voting S.F"

What do the S.F. supporters expect them to do? Bring out the pipe bands and march them up to vote for S.F.?

Well, FF coming out and using fake news and brexit style electioneering slogans such as "project fear" to my.mind should have them excluded from politics entirely.

On the SF front, and 3 similar sized parties, at least SF are ideologically different, so in reality people have the choice of 2 different political standouts.

What I dint accept from either FF or FG is the harping back to SF s links to the troubles and terrorism. Those days are over, I voted for the GFA whis objective was to accept SF and their political opposites in unionism, into the political fold. The expectation was to have them in government and power sharing in the north, and that was an expectation pushed and supported by every political party here in the south.

Why is that acceptable for our citizens in the north, yet not here in the south ? Why do FFg oppose sf power sharing in the south for those reasons yet support it in the north?

Also, Martin has often been heard referring to and using the phrase SF/IRA, and should be called out for yet another lazy light and shift of political strategy, but this time from the likes of the DUP.

wexfordman2

smurgen wrote: »

I absolutely cannot wait to see Simon sniveling Harris dumped out of the job. And Eoghan murphy.

In place of who ? Who do you want to see in their place .

cosybeach

More weak governance and a stronger hard left seems on the cards, is only good for PS and people who want everything for nothing.

Idbatterim

cosybeach wrote: »

More weak governance and a stronger hard left seems on the cards, is only good for PS and people who want everything for nothing.

Yes. But what do you do when fg have thrown you back a euro or so on thirty k a year each budget , as a tax “cut” lol. But support rip off housing ? I think many hard working people have reached desperation, hence the sf surge

Trizo

McMurphy wrote: »

Too young to remember the crash that happened ten years ago (there abouts) but leo and co will just stop short of waving corpses about from the troubles, oblivious to the fact many of the young voters wouldn't even have been born with the GFA was implemented.

It’s pure hypocrisy though SF supporters are all too happy to mutter something about blueshirts in reference to FG and Dev for FF, you can’t have it both ways ...

I get the feeling people are throwing the baby out with the bathwater, could things be better? ... yes! but they could also be a lot worse !

Das Reich

After so many years of Ireland (I not vote here) still not see much difference between both parties.

Edgware

McMurphy wrote: »

Even that might be more palatable to the general population than bringing them out to commemorate the Tans as Charlie and Leo have discovered.:pac:

I know. Charlie might as well enjoy his last few days in the sun.

Auguste Comte

wexfordman2 wrote: »

In place of who ? Who do you want to see in their place .

Anybody who would act on behalf of the people rather than the corporations.

olestoepoke

Das Reich wrote: »

After so many years of Ireland (I not vote here) still not see much difference between both parties.

Sorry but this makes no sense.

wexfordman2

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Anybody who would act on behalf of the people rather than the corporations.

Yes, but who, who do you want to see in charge of health and housing ?

Kivaro

"Change".
That is what we want.
We are totally fed up with the usual horrendous representation and incompetent governing of our country.

McMurphy

Trizo wrote: »

It’s pure hypocrisy though SF supporters are all too happy to mutter something about blueshirts in reference to FG and Dev for FF, you can’t have it both ways ...

I get the feeling people are throwing the baby out with the bathwater, could things be better? ... yes! but they could also be a lot worse !

Hypocrisy?

I haven't seen Sinn Fein representatives running on a platform where they're advocating people not to vote for FG because of their association with the blueshirts?


But while we're on the subject - it's the same hypocrisy we see when Sinn Fein were being urged by leo and Simon to sit down and work with the DUP and put their differences behind them. This is the same party who are saying they won't entertain the notion of working with Sinn Fein in govt in the south - hypocrisy.

Change tact perhaps.

The problem with SF and their socialist policies is you cannot discriminate against EU migrants. Let's take an extreme example, free houses for everyone in Ireland means free houses for everyone in the EU. A SF with policies around immigration control would make perfect sense to me. Immigration only where needed and as many of those tend to be high earning tech workers, it could be immigration only where needed and taxes to force them to make a significant contribution to the country they are now living in.

I'd be more in favour of higher corporation tax and have the multinationals contribute more rather than the workers, but this thing Irish have about the precious 12.5% that cannot be touched is going to take generations to change.

smurgen

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Yes, but who, who do you want to see in charge of health and housing ?

It's more a case of anyone but those two.i actually think transition year students could have done a better job than either.they're frighteningly incompetent.

Assetbacked

Idbatterim wrote: »

Yes. But what do you do when fg have thrown you back a euro or so on thirty k a year each budget , as a tax “cut” lol. But support rip off housing ? I think many hard working people have reached desperation, hence the sf surge

Yeah, it's very lazy to claim that it's just the layabouts who want change. The majority of my close circle of friends, most with very well paid professional jobs and some with more normal salaries are extremely unhappy with FG and how they have screwed income tax paying workers the past seven years. It's not about jumping to SF but about looking for an alternative to FG.

efanton

Originally Posted by efanton
I only wish I was as young as you imply.

Only 3 in my year at school remained in Ireland. 2 farmers sons and a lad that was lucky enough to be accepted for Garda training college. The rest spread to the world within months.

I left school in 1984. Was smart enough to qualify for 3rd level and got the results to allow that in the NIHE Limerick, but there was no way that was going to happen. Only the very wealthy could afford 3rd level education back then.
For my 18th birthday I got a a birthday card with a bus/ferry ticket to Victoria station in London, and £250 sterling to give me a start. I honestly dont know how my parents managed to save that sort of money, everyone was completely broke and living from one pay packet to the next.

Got myself some decent jobs in the UK, saved my money, paid for further education out of my own pocket and returned to Ireland in the mid nineties.
Only to see not much had changed. Yes the economy was on the up, but all the same mistakes and mismanagement in government were still there.
By 1999 I could see the writing on the wall, my rent was sky rocketing, and I told my friends thy were idiots to put themselves in so much debt to buy a house that they were bringing their own sandwiches into work for lunch and couldnt even afford a few pints on a Friday night. Low and behold Ireland was bust again a few years later but in the meantime I had found work I Europe and was living there.

Came back in 2011. And do you know what, FF and FG are still playing the same game, still telling the world we have such a great economy, and still cant deliver the promises they make every election.

So do I remember, absolutely, and I can say with certainty that while this country is run by FF and FG nothing will ever change. It will be boom and bust til the end of time, each time the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer.

What this country needs is for another party to be in government, if only to give FG and FF the serious kick up the arse they need to finally get their acts together and realise that when they go into government they have to deliver their program of government that they were elected to carry out if they are fortunate enough to win a general election. Also that public money is a valuable resource and it cant be squandered in the way it consistently has.

I have been fortunate enough in life to always be one of those that pay significant amounts of tax in the higher tax band, both here and in the UK.
I dont begrudge paying that tax, not for one minute, but I do begrudge party's that make promises and never deliver. Either they were deliberately deceiving the electorate at general elections to get voted in, or were totally incompetent. In both cases they should be fired and never allowed back again in government unless they remove those ministers and taoiseach's that failed in both their duties and promises.
I would say exactly the same thing about SF if they failed in government. But they havent, so I will support them in this general election and any other party that has yet to fail in government.
Is that clear enough for you?

Making excuses for failure just isnt on.
You claim that the economy is all important, yet this government has squandered billions of euro.

Forget about the unemployed that never worked and probably never will, they are a tiny problem this country will always have no matter which party is in power.
Concentrate on the big issues, housing, education, health and making Ireland a safe place for ordinary decent people whether they be rich or poor.
FG have failed abysmally at all of them in the last nine years, and I wouldn't trust FF under any circumstances while they propose to put the very ministers and leaders responsible for the crash back into government.

Edgware wrote: »

So according to you the thousands of school leavers who went to college in 1984 came from the very wealthy families? That's is pure and utter rubbish and anyone who looked at the background of the students then would know that. You should have put those comments out on You Tube with some lad playing a sad song on the fiddle

And good luck with that S.F. not squandering your tax money policy

no you are talking utter rubbish.

Lots of those that qualified and were offered places simply could not afford to go. I'm certainly not saying all, but very high numbers. Many didn't even apply to CAO. You tell me for fact and prove it that many thousands of others were not in the exact same situation as myself back in 1984. Were you even an adult then? I doubt it.

The sad thing that that situation is now becoming a reality again. How many parents have had to tell their children they cant afford to send them to university last year or will be in that position this year. With the price of student accommodation soaring it probably a lot more than you think.
How many have made the tough choice of choosing only one of their children to send to university, despite other siblings qualifying?

Suddenly when faced with someone who is well educated, intelligent, prepared to sit down and do the numbers themselves for all the different parties policies you yet again turn to scare tactic and diatribe.

FF spent the countries entire budget over a week ago and yet were still offering yet more promises that they could not possibly deliver last week. Explain that if you will.

Post here unequivocally that you honestly believe that FG have not made a complete balls of housing, education, health and making Ireland a safe place for ordinary decent people if you dare.

I notice that you didnt attack anything in the rest of the post, but that is probably because, there is no serious defence. Where's your analysis and breakdown backed with stats and figures?

wexfordman2

Kivaro wrote: »

"Change".
That is what we want.
We are totally fed up with the usual horrendous representation and incompetent governing of our country.

Change ?

But this country is entirely different and changed utterly over the last 10 years.

The economy has improved drastically, since the crash, but also the country has changed utterly from a social perspective. Again Ssm, abortion and amended time for seeking divorce, all things thay could never have been conceived beforehand, 10 or 15 years ago would have been impossible to imagine.

That is undeniably change, and from what would have been perceived to be the most conservative party in the country.

So, what type of change, and who is going to deliver that change ?

Who is going to turn around our health service ?

Who is going to mix our housing crisis ?

Who has had multiple.shots at it before and failed ?

I cant answer the first two, and the 3rd, well, both ff and FG have been there multiple times.

In charge of health we have had, Brian Cowen, Michael Martin, Mary Harney, Brendan OReilly (Dr), Leo Varadker (Dr), and Simon Harris.

Anyone notice any difference between them ?
I suspect, Mart Harney was probably the most effective.

Jinglejangle69

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The problem with SF and their socialist policies is you cannot discriminate against EU migrants. Let's take an extreme example, free houses for everyone in Ireland means free houses for everyone in the EU. A SF with policies around immigration control would make perfect sense to me. Immigration only where needed and as many of those tend to be high earning tech workers, it could be immigration only where needed and taxes to force them to make a significant contribution to the country they are now living in.

I'd be more in favour of higher corporation tax and have the multinationals contribute more rather than the workers, but this thing Irish have about the precious 12.5% that cannot be touched is going to take generations to change.

The 13 multinationals pay 50% of our tax intake.

How do they need to pay more???

Trizo

McMurphy wrote: »

Hypocrisy?

I haven't seen Sinn Fein representatives running on a platform where they're advocating people not to vote for FG because of their association with the blueshirts?


But while we're on the subject - it's the same hypocrisy we see when Sinn Fein were being urged by leo and Simon to sit down and work with the DUP and put their differences behind them. This is the same party who are saying they won't entertain the notion of working with Sinn Fein in govt in the south - hypocrisy.

Change tact perhaps.

Do note i said supporters... not representatives ...
Don’t change my context.

But now you’ve brought it up I do seem to remember a meme doing the rounds from Ógra Shinn Féin regarding trying to link FG with nazis so maybe you need to open your eyes a little wider...

And of course there’s hypocrisy on both sides however you raised the complaint of Leo bringing up the troubles ...

Jinglejangle69

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

The 13 multinationals pay 50% of our tax intake.

How do they need to pay more???

More as a percentage of their earnings obviously. Rather than letting their staff pay it for them.

wexfordman2

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The problem with SF and their socialist policies is you cannot discriminate against EU migrants. Let's take an extreme example, free houses for everyone in Ireland means free houses for everyone in the EU. A SF with policies around immigration control would make perfect sense to me. Immigration only where needed and as many of those tend to be high earning tech workers, it could be immigration only where needed and taxes to force them to make a significant contribution to the country they are now living in.

I'd be more in favour of higher corporation tax and have the multinationals contribute more rather than the workers, but this thing Irish have about the precious 12.5% that cannot be touched is going to take generations to change.

Free houses for everyone is not SF's policy, unless you could direct us to it and prove me wrong ?

And yes, you are correct, services offered to irish citizens must be offered to us citizens resident in Ireland. However, the mistake you make, is that we are not obliged to accept and offer services to citizens from the EU who would be deemed a burden to the state.

As for your controlled immigration comments, that is simply a extension of your thoughts, and to my.mind, uncomfortably close to the cravings of the UKIP and BP mindset.


Freedom of movement, for a start does not mean uncontrolled migration.

Jinglejangle69

[Deleted User] wrote: »

More as a percentage of their earnings obviously. Rather than letting their staff pay it for them.

No its corporation tax receipts.

10.9 billion last year.

McMurphy

Trizo wrote: »

Do note i said supporters... not representatives ...
Don’t change my context.

But now you’ve brought it up I do seem to remember a meme doing the rounds from Ógra Shinn Féin regarding trying to link FG with nazis so maybe you need to open your eyes a little wider...

And of course there’s hypocrisy on both sides however you raised the complaint of Leo bringing up the troubles ...

SF "supporters" on the internet v official representatives, and ads and campaigns using taxpayers money......


There's a wee bit of a difference - I am certainly not the one needing my eyes opened that much is for sure.

Bannasidhe

Trizo wrote: »

People posting on here about giving SF a chance and sure if it doesn’t work out well no worries ... eh no your obviously too young to remember the last crash or it didn’t affect you.

It’s not just an experiment .. the last downturn affected peoples lives for a decade or more , people had to put life decisions on hold (children,jobs,housing) , had to emigrate , people committed suicide due to the downturn and many other side effects.

A stable economy is taken for granted by those who don't seem to understand the consequences of a downturn. We can’t let what happened before happen again.

I’m not sure I trust any of the parties to have learnt the lessons of the past But I have a real concern that SF would crash the economy if elected.

I remember sitting in the car with my father as he queued for petrol in the 70s so he could do his self-employed job on his bread round. No petrol = no work =no money.

I remember the unemployment blight in the 80s when the coaches to London were full of Irish young people getting the hell out - I was one of them. 60% tax rate...

I remember the last crash - and the one before, and the one before...
and I remember it was always either FF or FG crashing or cutting.

SF will not be getting a vote from me because of their lack of animal welfare policies - but they cannot be blamed for ANY of the many economic crashes we have had in this country, nor for the squeezing of the middle to pay the debts of banks. That is ALL FF and FG.

I, for one, wouldn't be upset to see them get a chance. They may mess it up... but history shows us FF will mess it up - they did every other time they got into government and then FG will come along and squeeze the middle again while protecting those at the top of the tree - as they have every other time.

Trizo

McMurphy wrote: »

SF "supporters" on the internet v official representatives, and ads and campaigns using taxpayers money......


There's a wee bit of a difference - I am certainly not the one needing my eyes opened that much is for sure.

If you say so .... expect if you raise something to be challenged on it, move the goalposts all you want the point still stands.

Your generation is free to make its own mistakes I won’t be as negatively affected by a crash as I was the last time but doesn’t mean I want to see it happen again.

Everyone here I assume wants the same thing for our county, we just have different opinions on how to achieve it. I’m assuming there are no headbangers who want to see the place up in flames ..,