Is it not time EVERYONE considers not voting for FF or FG in the upcoming election

christy c

Bannasidhe wrote: »

but they cannot be blamed for ANY of the many economic crashes we have had in this country, nor for the squeezing of the middle to pay the debts of banks. That is ALL FF and FG.

No, I haven't seen anyone blaming SF for previous crashes. How could they be blamed? They didn't even have any TDs for some of the times you mention.

What they can be blamed for is populist self destructive policies they have or are proposing.

Idbatterim

Assetbacked wrote: »

Yeah, it's very lazy to claim that it's just the layabouts who want change. The majority of my close circle of friends, most with very well paid professional jobs and some with more normal salaries are extremely unhappy with FG and how they have screwed income tax paying workers the past seven years. It's not about jumping to SF but about looking for an alternative to FG.

Yeah that would be like my mother. A mother Teresa the second. But even she has reached the end of the tether with the welfare state , when she is paying a large mortgage etc and all you hear about is welfare , welfare , welfare. If they are going to provide more housing as as a form of welfare , that’s one issue. But the endless increases in it every year , have to stop. It’s taking the piss. They already have it asset rich for those on social housing , then throwing out stupid amounts to those with no intention of ever working and just pumping out the future generations. It’s starting to breed serious resentment, and I’m surprised it’s tken this long. Actually I its ireland , I’m not. No urgency on anything, hence after nine years in power , many things are worse under fg. Nobody here is prepared to do the dirty work. That’s the problem

Ireland is usually decades behind Europe when it comes to many issues. Watch the immigration issue start to raise its head too , as it becomes so obvious, that there is just nowhere near enough to go around anymore , to keep everyd happy. Due to the health and housing black primarily

Idbatterim

Trizo wrote: »

If you say so .... expect if you raise something to be challenged on it, move the goalposts all you want the point still stands.

Your generation is free to make its own mistakes I won’t be as negatively affected by a crash as I was the last time but doesn’t mean I want to see it happen again.

Everyone here I assume wants the same thing for our county, we just have different opinions on how to achieve it. I’m assuming there are no headbangers who want to see the place up in flames ..,

A crash could be beneficial for some. Assuming it puts them in a position where they could buy.

Jinglejangle69

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

No its corporation tax receipts.

10.9 billion last year.

My point is very simple I'm not sure how else I can explain it. There should be higher corporation tax and companies should have to actually pay that tax in full and not have mechanisms to avoid it.

Bannasidhe

efanton wrote: »

I only wish I was as young as you imply.

Only 3 in my year at school remained in Ireland. 2 farmers sons and a lad that was lucky enough to be accepted for Garda training college. The rest spread to the world within months.

I left school in 1984. Was smart enough to qualify for 3rd level and got the results to allow that in the NIHE Limerick, but there was no way that was going to happen. Only the very wealthy could afford 3rd level education back then.
For my 18th birthday I got a a birthday card with a bus/ferry ticket to Victoria station in London, and £250 sterling to give me a start. I honestly dont know how my parents managed to save that sort of money, everyone was completely broke and living from one pay packet to the next.

Got myself some decent jobs in the UK, saved my money, paid for further education out of my own pocket and returned to Ireland in the mid nineties.
Only to see not much had changed. Yes the economy was on the up, but all the same mistakes and mismanagement in government were still there.
By 1999 I could see the writing on the wall, my rent was sky rocketing, and I told my friends thy were idiots to put themselves in so much debt to buy a house that they were bringing their own sandwiches into work for lunch and couldnt even afford a few pints on a Friday night. Low and behold Ireland was bust again a few years later but in the meantime I had found work I Europe and was living there.

Came back in 2011. And do you know what, FF and FG are still playing the same game, still telling the world we have such a great economy, and still cant deliver the promises they make every election.

So do I remember, absolutely, and I can say with certainty that while this country is run by FF and FG nothing will ever change. It will be boom and bust til the end of time, each time the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer.

What this country needs is for another party to be in government, if only to give FG and FF the serious kick up the arse they need to finally get their acts together and realise that when they go into government they have to deliver their program of government that they were elected to carry out if they are fortunate enough to win a general election. Also that public money is a valuable resource and it cant be squandered in the way it consistently has.

I have been fortunate enough in life to always be one of those that pay significant amounts of tax in the higher tax band, both here and in the UK.
I dont begrudge paying that tax, not for one minute, but I do begrudge party's that make promises and never deliver. Either they were deliberately deceiving the electorate at general elections to get voted in, or were totally incompetent. In both cases they should be fired and never allowed back again in government unless they remove those ministers and taoiseach's that failed in both their duties and promises.
I would say exactly the same thing about SF if they failed in government. But they havent, so I will support them in this general election and any other party that has yet to fail in government.
Is that clear enough for you?

Making excuses for failure just isnt on.
You claim that the economy is all important, yet this government has squandered billions of euro.

Forget about the unemployed that never worked and probably never will, they are a tiny problem this country will always have no matter which party is in power.
Concentrate on the big issues, housing, education, health and making Ireland a safe place for ordinary decent people whether they be rich or poor.
FG have failed abysmally at all of them in the last nine years, and I wouldn't trust FF under any circumstances while they propose to put the very ministers and leaders responsible for the crash back into government.

My story mirrors yours.
I left in 83 - Slattery's coach to Victoria - 1989 aged 24 I was able to buy a house. Things, from the outside anyway, seemed to be looking up in Ireland so I sold my house in 93 and came back to find that not much had changed.
Left again in 99 as my skills were good enough to get me a permanent visa for Australia. Came back in 2001.
To find not much had changed.

I have paid the whopping taxes, I have been fortunate enough to be able to buy houses to live in - but when between houses have been forced to pay insane rents.

I own my home but I see my 35 year old son with a good full time job struggle to buy a home for him and his kids. I have watched him be evicted from rented accommodation due to bank repossession, landlord moving back in etc etc. My grandson is 10 - in those 10 years he has 'experienced' 4 different homes when with his Dad (plus a year with me). Each new 'home' was further and further out into the countryside in an effort to find rent affordable enough to give hope of saving a deposit.

And I think to myself there is something rotten in the state of Ireland.

Idbatterim

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I remember sitting in the car with my father as he queued for petrol in the 70s so he could do his self-employed job on his bread round. No petrol = no work =no money.

I remember the unemployment blight in the 80s when the coaches to London were full of Irish young people getting the hell out - I was one of them. 60% tax rate...

I remember the last crash - and the one before, and the one before...
and I remember it was always either FF or FG crashing or cutting.

SF will not be getting a vote from me because of their lack of animal welfare policies - but they cannot be blamed for ANY of the many economic crashes we have had in this country, nor for the squeezing of the middle to pay the debts of banks. That is ALL FF and FG.

I, for one, wouldn't be upset to see them get a chance. They may mess it up... but history shows us FF will mess it up - they did every other time they got into government and then FG will come along and squeeze the middle again while protecting those at the top of the tree - as they have every other time.

Great list but would you seriously not be more concerned about the human cost ? I agree about protecting animals etc. but if ffg get in , it could be five more years of nothing getting done

Trizo

Idbatterim wrote: »

A crash could be beneficial for some. Assuming it puts them in a position where they could buy.

True and that’s a worry all right , you never know what forces are behind some actions.

Even read the other day some people spouting that brexit was to short the pound seems far fetched to me but then Soros did it before...

is_that_so

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Anybody who would act on behalf of the people rather than the corporations.

How exactly would you expect them to do that?

McMurphy

Trizo wrote: »

If you say so .... expect if you raise something to be challenged on it, move the goalposts all you want the point still stands.

Your generation is free to make its own mistakes I won’t be as negatively affected by a crash as I was the last time but doesn’t mean I want to see it happen again.

Everyone here I assume wants the same thing for our county, we just have different opinions on how to achieve it. I’m assuming there are no headbangers who want to see the place up in flames ..,

Move the goalposts what?

You brought up people possibly voting for Sinn Fein, and how they must not remember the crash.

The conversation moved from there - and you have been given multiple examples of hypocrisy when people mention SF.

You brought the blueshirts comments from anonymous internet supporters into the conversation, and tried to liken it with that of official FG party statement's and campaigns.

That makes your other point about expected to be challenged on something you raise all the more hysterical tbh.

Bannasidhe

christy c wrote: »

No, I haven't seen anyone blaming SF for previous crashes. How could they be blamed? They didn't even have any TDs for some of the times you mention.

What they can be blamed for is populist self destructive policies they have or are proposing.

And FF/FG haven't promised the Sun, Moon, and Stars???

Yeah- Leo really is looking after those who get up early in the morning - to drop their children at the crack of dawn at childcare that costs the same a month as their mortgage so they can commute from their home in an entirely different county to the one they work in...

We keep hearing SF policies could crash the economy - FF policies DID crash the economy - several times.
We keep hearing SF policies will be destructive - will we see record number of people on trolleys?? A housing crises such as we haven't seen since the 30s??? That's what FG have given us.

And may I repeat - I will not be voting for SF. But I won't be weeping if they get into government either.

wexfordman2

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Free houses for everyone is not SF's policy, unless you could direct us to it and prove me wrong ?

And yes, you are correct, services offered to irish citizens must be offered to us citizens resident in Ireland. However, the mistake you make, is that we are not obliged to accept and offer services to citizens from the EU who would be deemed a burden to the state.

As for your controlled immigration comments, that is simply a extension of your thoughts, and to my.mind, uncomfortably close to the cravings of the UKIP and BP mindset.


Freedom of movement, for a start does not mean uncontrolled migration.

Oh here we go again. I mention immigration control and I'm a Nazi. Full stop, end of argument.

We are incapable of accommodating the level of immigration into the country. Housing crisis, rental crisis, hospital waiting lists, public transport operating way beyond capacity. What exactly is your definition of a burden on the state? Race is not a factor in the debate. Actually I'm going to contradict what I just said and I will agree that it is a factor but it is an argument coming from those against immigration control. They are the ones who will always drag the debate down to an issue of race and make it impossible for a debate to even happen. No politician will touch it in fear of being branded a racist.

is_that_so

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And FF/FG haven't promised the Sun, Moon, and Stars???

Yeah- Leo really is looking after those who get up early in the morning - to drop their children at the crack of dawn at childcare that costs the same a month as their mortgage so they can commute from their home in an entirely different county to the one they work in...

We keep hearing SF policies could crash the economy - FF policies DID crash the economy - several times.
We keep hearing SF policies will be destructive - will we see record number of people on trolleys?? A housing crises such as we haven't seen since the 30s??? That's what FG have given us.

And may I repeat - I will not be voting for SF. But I won't be weeping if they get into government either.

Actually the promises are €11bn(FF/FG) and €18bn worth for SF. This is 1977 abolish everything territory and not good in any language.

is_that_so

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh here we go again. I mention immigration control and I'm a Nazi. Full stop, end of argument.

We are incapable of accommodating the level of immigration into the country. Housing crisis, rental crisis, hospital waiting lists, public transport operating way beyond capacity. What exactly is your definition of a burden on the state? Race is not a factor in the debate. Actually I'm going to contradict what I just said and I will agree that it is a factor but it is an argument coming from those against immigration control. They are the ones who will always drag the debate down to an issue of race and make it impossible for a debate to even happen. No politician will touch it in fear of being branded a racist.

How can you control EU citizens coming here or Brits for that matter? They are the vast bulk of our immigrants. As for not raising it, the Albanian and Georgian comment Varadkar made turned out to be true despite the outrage it generated.

christy c

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And FF/FG haven't promised the Sun, Moon, and Stars???

Yeah- Leo really is looking after those who get up early in the morning - to drop their children at the crack of dawn at childcare that costs the same a month as their mortgage so they can commute from their home in an entirely different county to the one they work in...

We keep hearing SF policies could crash the economy - FF policies DID crash the economy - several times.
We keep hearing SF policies will be destructive - will we see record number of people on trolleys?? A housing crises such as we haven't seen since the 30s??? That's what FG have given us.

And may I repeat - I will not be voting for SF. But I won't be weeping if they get into government either.

Just because FF or FG have done something in the past it doesn't excuse stupid proposals such as reducing the pension age. We hear of people wanting change, I assumed that was positive change? It so that doesn't really tally with voting for SF.

Bannasidhe

Idbatterim wrote: »

Great list but would you seriously not be more concerned about the human cost ? I agree about protecting animals etc. but if ffg get in , it could be five more years of nothing getting done

I cannot vote for a party that votes against animal welfare legislation.
It's a red line for me.

How a government treats animals is to me an indication of how it will treat the vulnerable - FF and FG have given millions and millions to greyhound racing, failed to deal with the appalling conditions in puppy mills, failed to act on the equine crises etc etc.
SF have begun to move in the the general direction of animal welfare by voting against the €16m for the greyhound industry in 2020 but I await a firm policy from them and then they will have my vote.

Bannasidhe

christy c wrote: »

Just because FF or FG have done something in the past it doesn't excuse stupid proposals such as reducing the pension age. We hear of people wanting change, I assumed that was positive change? It so that doesn't really tally with voting for SF.

While people vote for the same they will get the same.

Stupid is sending the same people back into government and expecting them to keep their promises to look after those who get up early and safeguard the economy when they have never done so in the past.

christy c

Bannasidhe wrote: »

While people vote for the same they will get the same.

Stupid is sending the same people back into government and expecting them to keep their promises to look after those who get up early and safeguard the economy when they have never done so in the past.

Yes it's stupid, but even more stupid IMO to send in new people who promise to enact even more ridiculous policies. I'm a best of a bad lot type voter.

McMurphy

christy c wrote: »

Yes it's stupid, but even more stupid IMO to send in new people who promise to enact even more ridiculous policies. I'm a best of a bad lot type voter.

Serious question Christy, if the shinners got in and made good inroads with both the economy and health/housing would you be prepared to give them a vote in the next election, or are SF a no no regardless?

Bannasidhe

christy c wrote: »

Yes it's stupid, but even more stupid IMO to send in new people who promise to enact even more ridiculous policies. I'm a best of a bad lot type voter.

Fair enough.

I'm a while we repeat the same experiment we'll get the same results and those results just aren't good enough kind of voter.

Plus - if they are as appalling as people fear they can be no confidenced out of government. Unless they can get a brace of Healy-Raes and a Lowry to back them as the current government does. :P

christy c

McMurphy wrote: »

Serious question Christy, if the shinners got in and made good inroads with both the economy and health/housing would you be prepared to give them a vote in the next election, or are SF a no no regardless?

I'd vote for them next Saturday if I thought they'd do that. If they get in and make a good go of it, I'd vote for them without question.

Problem is if they were to do what they promise to do I can't see how it could work. It's they easy solutions they are proposing for the last 10 years. Pension time bomb? Decrease the age and increase the problem. More tax revenue needed? Tax the rich. I'd love to be proved wrong though

Idbatterim

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I cannot vote for a party that votes against animal welfare legislation.
It's a red line for me.

How a government treats animals is to me an indication of how it will treat the vulnerable - FF and FG have given millions and millions to greyhound racing, failed to deal with the appalling conditions in puppy mills, failed to act on the equine crises etc etc.
SF have begun to move in the the general direction of animal welfare by voting against the €16m for the greyhound industry in 2020 but I await a firm policy from them and then they will have my vote.

oh yeah fair enough, didnt know they voted against it, its a bit different not having a policy on it and actually voting against it

McMurphy

christy c wrote: »

I'd vote for them next Saturday if I thought they'd do that. If they get in and make a good go of it, I'd vote for them without question.

Problem is if they were to do what they promise to do I can't see how it could work. It's they easy solutions they are proposing for the last 10 years. Pension time bomb? Decrease the age and increase the problem. More tax revenue needed? Tax the rich. I'd love to be proved wrong though

I was adamant that I wasn't voting for their candidate in this election, but I'm slowly coming around.

I was going with a Catherine Murphy 1 and voting for little or anyone else after that (had toyed with the idea of throwing James Lawless a vote but have revised this due to his anti SF rhetoric in the last week) north Kildares Candidate quality is shocking tbh.

Probably go with Catherine Murphy and SF and leave the rest blank now.

I've voted for Sinn Fein before don't get me wrong, and I'd be republican minded but I'm in no way a party faithfull who votes for a particular party no matter what.

They've all a duty to convince me and win me over, the wife (after asking her dad FFS) is convinced she's not voting at all this year as she reckons it's a waste. I think that's terrible but she's a mind of her own.

We are both home owner professionals in our late 30s (my last year in my 30s) with kids.

Not typical SF voter's going by these forums.

Idbatterim

McMurphy wrote: »

I was adamant that I wasn't voting for their candidate in this election, but I'm slowly coming around.

I was going with a Catherine Murphy 1 and voting for little or anyone else after that (had toyed with the idea of throwing James Lawless a vote but have revised this due to his anti SF rhetoric in the last week) north Kildares Candidate quality is shocking tbh.

Probably go with Catherine Murphy and SF and leave the rest blank now.

I've voted for Sinn Fein before don't get me wrong, and I'd be republican minded but I'm in no way a party faithfull who votes for a particular party no matter what.

They've all a duty to convince me and win me over, the wife (after asking her dad FFS) is convinced she's not voting at all this year as she reckons it's a waste. I think that's terrible but she's a kind of her own.

We are both home professionals in our late 30s (my last year in my 30s) with kids.

Not typical SF voter's going by these forums.

a clear FG vote in my opinion. If its just for personal interests... the gamble with the economy will go up largely with FF or SF in power in my opinion HOWEVER Sf might do something about housing, its a gamble. In your position, Id be FG or social democrats... certainly not FF anyway, thats for sure. Oh also I think everyone should vote for a green candidate...

the electorate have been fooled multiple times now, if they get in again FF, FG and do nothing again. I dont know if I can live with that, knowing I have been lied to, knowing they will do nothing. For another five years and Ill have voted for that farce? dont know if I can do it. I am on the fence. lucky you, you feel there is a great party here, thats a bigger farce than me every admitting I am on the fence, will be

SantaCruz

Kivaro wrote: »

"Change".
That is what we want.
We are totally fed up with the usual horrendous representation and incompetent governing of our country.

Just a note here - change means ANYTHING different to what we have now.

Americans voted for CHANGE, with Trump. The UK voted for CHANGE with Brexit.

Change can be for the better or worse. Changing one thing (e.g. higher taxes for higher earners or corporations) might mean changing how many jobs we have and how much tax we actually take in.

Everything you CHANGE has consequences. When you vote for CHANGE, make sure what the cost of that CHANGE is going to be, and whether it is worth it. Be sure to ask the people selling you CHANGE what the cost is, and what they are sacrificing to make the CHANGE because there's nothing for free in this world, and every action has consequences - both intended and unintended.

Idbatterim

SantaCruz wrote: »

Just a note here - change means ANYTHING different to what we have now.

Americans voted for CHANGE, with Trump. The UK voted for CHANGE with Brexit.

Change can be for the better or worse. Changing one thing (e.g. higher taxes for higher earners or corporations) might mean changing how many jobs we have and how much tax we actually take in.

Everything you CHANGE has consequences. When you vote for CHANGE, make sure what the cost of that CHANGE is going to be, and whether it is worth it. Be sure to ask the people selling you CHANGE what the cost is, and what they are sacrificing to make the CHANGE because there's nothing for free in this world, and every action has consequences - both intended and unintended.

we wouldnt be voting for anything near as drastic as change (as trump for example) not that I think that is drastic change. They need one of the other FFG fools to prop them up, europe now have to pass our budgets... Whether or not you want to risk change, depends on your current predicament, if you are being fleeced in dublin on property , you might well say, at this stage , its a "risk" ill take. Which I feel a bit part of it is...

Also if you dont punish FFG for the **** they have delivered, they absolutely wont change...

Bannasidhe

Idbatterim wrote: »

a clear FG vote in my opinion. If its just for personal interests... the gamble with the economy will go up largely with FF or SF in power in my opinion HOWEVER Sf might do something about housing, its a gamble. In your position, Id be FG or social democrats... certainly not FF anyway, thats for sure. Oh also I think everyone should vote for a green candidate...

I'd put the SDs above SF tbh - they are a party I would like to see gain a bit more support.
Even my die-hard FF all her life mother is going SD this time around. MM has lost one vote in Cork anyway.

The Greens I have an issue with - sad to say I just find it hard to stomach the thought of Ryan being in government again. I will throw our local Green a preference tho.

FG and FF will get nothing from me - or as far as I can tell any member of my family. There's fierce grumbling among my siblings and cousins about both those parties. By my count there's 20 votes in my family alone that FF/FG have lost in Cork SC.
I'm Cork NC and they never got mine anyway but there is lot of anger here about Dara Murphy and that could impact.

dubrov

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Even my die-hard FF all her life mother is going SD this time around. MM has lost one vote in Cork anyway.

It doesn't say a lot if she voted for FF in 2011 and 2016

Idbatterim

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'd put the SDs above SF tbh - they are a party I would like to see gain a bit more support.
Even my die-hard FF all her life mother is going SD this time around. MM has lost one vote in Cork anyway.

The Greens I have an issue with - sad to say I just find it hard to stomach the thought of Ryan being in government again. I will throw our local Green a preference tho.

FG and FF will get nothing from me - or as far as I can tell any member of my family. There's fierce grumbling among my siblings and cousins about both those parties. By my count there's 20 votes in my family alone that FF/FG have lost in Cork SC.
I'm Cork NC and they never got mine anyway but there is lot of anger here about Dara Murphy and that could impact.

good post. Those vote loses, over what issues primarily?

Bannasidhe

dubrov wrote: »

It doesn't say a lot if she voted for FF in 2011 and 2016

She actually voted Labour in 2011 - first time ever not voting FF - and was so disgusted by the resulting coalition she went back to FF in 2016.
And now, at 85 years old she has had enough.
Of her 6 grandchildren only 1 is in Ireland - and he is struggling to buy a house despite have a good job due to the cost of renting making it impossible to save a deposit.
She watched her husband lie on a trolley in A&E for 5 day - even with private health insurance.

When FF lose people like her - the die hard loyalists - they are in trouble.

SantaCruz

Bannasidhe wrote: »

She actually voted Labour in 2011 - first time ever not voting FF - and was so disgusted by the resulting coalition she went back to FF in 2016.
And now, at 85 years old she has had enough.
Of her 6 grandchildren only 1 is in Ireland - and he is struggling to buy a house despite have a good job due to the cost of renting making it impossible to save a deposit.
She watched her husband lie on a trolley in A&E for 5 day - even with private health insurance.

When FF lose people like her - the die hard loyalists - they are in trouble.

No offence to your mother, but you have to question the thought process that sees a party destroy our economy, then return to voting for them because there was no money left in the kitty for the poor bastards who had to tidy up their disaster.