Is it not time EVERYONE considers not voting for FF or FG in the upcoming election

Idbatterim

ELM327 wrote: »

PT free is stupid, to be honest, as a large proportion of journeys are already made by free travel pass, and there is no excess capacity on most commuter buses and trains anyway.


Large FDI corporations are here for our low CT rate. If we up it they will leave. 12.5% of something is better than 20% of nothing. Not to mention up to 500k jobs at risk.


Property tax that is related to current market value (not 2013), along with water charges implemented by a cross party agreement, would be the way forward.


Stop this idea of "narrowing the tax band". In the UK almost every full time worker pays something into the pot.

good post.

The free PT thing wouldnt really work here, PT here has a tiny capacity that is at peak at peak times, buses just get stuck in gridlock, not enough trains or train carriages etc :rolleyes: luas is a sardine can, and even then , people are being left behind.

You need game changers to hoover up masses of traffic , Dublin metro and dart underground, irish rail, dumping tons of people out at heuston, when they want to go to the centre or docks, is a farce, all hopping on the now not fit for purpose red line.The single dublin metro line, if built as planned to metro standard out to sandyford, would likely transport 100,000,000 people a year!

You can absolutely forget "water charges" again. also there would be just be exemptions for all the usual suspects , and the usual crowd would have ended up paying for it all anyway! I would strongly suggest getting rid of LPT and replace it with a council tax like in the uk, that every adult in the house has to pay! note, there are no exemptions for those in coucil housing etc, this is a serious revenue generator. this is how you can start going about implementing a proper and FAIR for those that work, tax system. You may need a bust to implement the likes of this though.

It is far more controversial cutting things here, than it is by doing the same thing, just via a different method (increased taxation)...

Site value tax, should have been done decades ago. Taking more out of the income tax net? absolute idiocy HOWEVER its far preferable that being wasted on more welfare...

Idbatterim

ELM327 wrote: »

No, I think that where possible the individual should be allowed retain their income.


We already pay too much income tax in this country. Charging people to commute to work is ridiculous. Increase the property tax. Increase the USC. Bring back water charges.

hang on here! this big "we pay too much tax" is a very , very handy and convenient. There is no water charges, as good as no lpt, huge amounts of workers pay near nothing into the system. And this is the entire problems and this **** is going to come crashing down on them, give it another 3-4 years of government, if it stays FFG in my opinion. Its the high earners here, who cant or dont fiddle anything income related and the corporation tax (I cant believe how much they are contributing, read an article on it yesterday) Put it this way, if it werent for the boom in that, they would have serious problems filling the health black hole for instance...

Edgware

machaseh wrote: »

More so the Polish and the Canadians than the British, in the case of the Netherlands.

Maybe so but there are many British War graves in Holland with over a thousand British killed at Arnhem alone. If you are concerned about Brits out of Northern Ireland you could apply the same to Dutch settlers in South Africa

ELM327

Idbatterim wrote: »

good post.

The free PT thing wouldnt really work here, PT here has a tiny capacity that is at peak at peak times, buses just get stuck in gridlock, not enough trains or train carriages etc :rolleyes: luas is a sardine can, and even then , people are being left behind.

You need game changers to hoover up masses of traffic , Dublin metro and dart underground, irish rail, dumping tons of people out at heuston, when they want to go to the centre or docks, is a farce, all hopping on the now not fit for purpose red line.The single dublin metro line, if built as planned to metro standard out to sandyford, would likely transport 100,000,000 people a year!

You can absolutely forget "water charges" again. also there would be just be exemptions for all the usual suspects , and the usual crowd would have ended up paying for it all anyway! I would strongly suggest getting rid of LPT and replace it with a council tax like in the uk, that every adult in the house has to pay! note, there are no exemptions for those in coucil housing etc, this is a serious revenue generator. this is how you can start going about implementing a proper and FAIR for those that work, tax system. You may need a bust to implement the likes of this though.

It is far more controversial cutting things here, than it is by doing the same thing, just via a different method (increased taxation)...

Site value tax, should have been done decades ago. Taking more out of the income tax net? absolute idiocy HOWEVER its far preferable that being wasted on more welfare...

Agree, council tax with no exemptions. Brilliant!

Idbatterim wrote: »

hang on here! this big "we pay too much tax" is a very , very handy and convenient. There is no water charges, as good as no lpt, huge amounts of workers pay near nothing into the system. And this is the entire problems and this **** is going to come crashing down on them, give it another 3-4 years of government, if it stays FFG in my opinion. Its the high earners here, who cant or dont fiddle anything income related and the corporation tax (I cant believe how much they are contributing, read an article on it yesterday) Put it this way, if it werent for the boom in that, they would have serious problems filling the health black hole for instance...

Sorry, the "we" was people like me in middle ireland, good salary but not "rich".

Idbatterim

Sorry, the "we" was people like me in middle ireland, good salary but not "rich".

exactly! many even paying virtually nothing, use it as a catch all! Its not true. I remember a german economist years ago here, saying the madness that the Irish taxation system was. I know, it you know it, she knows it! But will RTE or the politicians address it? LOL!

efanton

Idbatterim wrote: »

exactly! many even paying virtually nothing, use it as a catch all! Its not true. I remember a german economist years ago here, saying the madness that the Irish taxation system was. I know, it you know it, she knows it! But will RTE or the politicians address it? LOL!

It is impossible to compare Ireland to any other tax system in Europe, for two very good reasons. We have a very small population and wage inequality in Ireland is very high.

Essentially what this means is no matter what system you put in place, its the middle income earners or the high income earners will be bearing the brunt of all taxation. To imagine otherwise is dreamland.

How would you address that. Well dont expect a massive baby boom any time soon and even if that did happen taxation would have to dramatically increase until these children reached working age. So a change in population size is not a solution.

That leaves wage inequality. Again there is little that can be done except raise the minimum wage or a reduction in higher wages. A minimum wage increase would be a good solution but here again you would have to endure higher taxation for a while that change takes time to take effect unless a serious and very dramatic increase in the minimum wage was implemented (€5 per hour or more). Again not a realistic proposal, although most would accept that the minimum wage does need to increase, they would also agree that its only really viable in small incremental steps.

How would you reduce the higher incomes? The simple answer is you cant. Those who decide those incomes are generally self made, self-employed or high income earners themselves and they definitely are not going to cut their own throats.

So this brings us back to the middle income earners or the high income earners will be bearing the brunt of all taxation. With no feasible alternative its really down to the middle income earners demanding that more should be taken from the top, or accepting that there is not alternative.

Some are going to jump on this and say but you can make the low income earner and those on social welfare pay tax. Yes you could in theory, but the reality is that the amount of additional taxation would be so small that it would be hard to even justify a 1% reduction in the 20% tax rate or the 40% tax rate.

The bottom line is SF have proposed the only viable alternative to reducing the burden on middle income earners by introducing a third band of taxation.
Now whether that is introduced at the top end as SF has proposed, in between the two existing tax bands, or at the base where every income is taxed no matter what is earned but a significantly reduced rate to the 20%.

The point is with three tax bands it is easier to adjust the thresholds so that you can benefit high, middle or low incomes independently. At the moment we have a tax system with just two bands where any change will affect the middle income earner no matter what change is made.

PommieBast

Idbatterim wrote: »

I would strongly suggest getting rid of LPT and replace it with a council tax like in the uk, that every adult in the house has to pay!

What you describe was the Poll Tax. Aside from the single-person discount with Council Tax it does not matter how many people are in the property.

Geuze

efanton wrote: »

It is impossible to compare Ireland to any other tax system in Europe, for two very good reasons. We have a very small population and wage inequality in Ireland is very high.

That leaves wage inequality. Again there is little that can be done except raise the minimum wage or a reduction in higher wages. A minimum wage increase would be a good solution but here again you would have to endure higher taxation for a while that change takes time to take effect unless a serious and very dramatic increase in the minimum wage was implemented (€5 per hour or more). Again not a realistic proposal, although most would accept that the minimum wage does need to increase, they would also agree that its only really viable in small incremental steps.

Income inequality is high as so many households have zero market income.

Winning_Stroke

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what if you hate everything to do with parties such as ff?

That's what FG is there for.

daretodream

If we do vote SF and they do really well, who will be with them and will it at least strike FG or FF out of Government as a majority or combined force as previously?

Geuze

IMHO, either FG or FF will be in any coalition.

The sums don't work otherwise.

If FF = 50 seats, FG = 40, therefore 90 between them.

That leaves 70 seats.

James Brown

I'd rather SF went into opposition and built upon that. Labour dropped the ball on that.
The only way SF can hold any coalition to account would be to threaten walking, which they'd likely need do with FF/FG record in government.
So I'd prefer they were the main opposition until we can have a FF/FG free government.

maccored

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I'd rather SF went into opposition and built upon that. Labour dropped the ball on that.
The only way SF can hold any coalition to account would be to threaten walking, which they'd likely need do with FF/FG record in government.
So I'd prefer they were the main opposition until we can have a FF/FG free government.

as would I. Build up seats this time, prove themselves as a good opposition and then lead a more left government next time. Or - which is very unlikely - make a non FF/FG gov this time round. Cant see that happening, but anyone who goes in with either FF or FG end up scapegoats

efanton

efanton wrote: »

I only wish I was as young as you imply.

Only 3 in my year at school remained in Ireland. 2 farmers sons and a lad that was lucky enough to be accepted for Garda training college. The rest spread to the world within months.

I left school in 1984. Was smart enough to qualify for 3rd level and got the results to allow that in the NIHE Limerick, but there was no way that was going to happen. Only the very wealthy could afford 3rd level education back then.
For my 18th birthday I got a a birthday card with a bus/ferry ticket to Victoria station in London, and £250 sterling to give me a start. I honestly dont know how my parents managed to save that sort of money, everyone was completely broke and living from one pay packet to the next.

Got myself some decent jobs in the UK, saved my money, paid for further education out of my own pocket and returned to Ireland in the mid nineties.
Only to see not much had changed. Yes the economy was on the up, but all the same mistakes and mismanagement in government were still there.
By 1999 I could see the writing on the wall, my rent was sky rocketing, and I told my friends thy were idiots to put themselves in so much debt to buy a house that they were bringing their own sandwiches into work for lunch and couldnt even afford a few pints on a Friday night. Low and behold Ireland was bust again a few years later but in the meantime I had found work I Europe and was living there.

Came back in 2011. And do you know what, FF and FG are still playing the same game, still telling the world we have such a great economy, and still cant deliver the promises they make every election.

So do I remember, absolutely, and I can say with certainty that while this country is run by FF and FG nothing will ever change. It will be boom and bust til the end of time, each time the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer.

What this country needs is for another party to be in government, if only to give FG and FF the serious kick up the arse they need to finally get their acts together and realise that when they go into government they have to deliver their program of government that they were elected to carry out if they are fortunate enough to win a general election. Also that public money is a valuable resource and it cant be squandered in the way it consistently has.

I have been fortunate enough in life to always be one of those that pay significant amounts of tax in the higher tax band, both here and in the UK.
I dont begrudge paying that tax, not for one minute, but I do begrudge party's that make promises and never deliver. Either they were deliberately deceiving the electorate at general elections to get voted in, or were totally incompetent. In both cases they should be fired and never allowed back again in government unless they remove those ministers and taoiseach's that failed in both their duties and promises.
I would say exactly the same thing about SF if they failed in government. But they havent, so I will support them in this general election and any other party that has yet to fail in government.
Is that clear enough for you?

Making excuses for failure just isnt on.
You claim that the economy is all important, yet this government has squandered billions of euro.

Forget about the unemployed that never worked and probably never will, they are a tiny problem this country will always have no matter which party is in power.
Concentrate on the big issues, housing, education, health and making Ireland a safe place for ordinary decent people whether they be rich or poor.
FG have failed abysmally at all of them in the last nine years, and I wouldn't trust FF under any circumstances while they propose to put the very ministers and leaders responsible for the crash back into government.

great post except for putting SF into govt

James Brown

Idbatterim wrote: »

Ff aren’t tax cuts. They have spoken of welfare increases for all

You seem overly obsessed with welfare and the people on it. I think we've much bigger issues.

NovemberWren

is_that_so wrote: »

Maybe look at who you wouldn't mind in the Dail representing your constituency?

that seems a not too bad approach. at least, you can watch their approach.

imo - Dr. Dolores Cahill, Irish Freedom Party, (Wicklow?), I do reckon, could be an tremendous asset.
and yes, - I do know this is 'freedom' .. from.. the E.U., - but, will this be happening, if not sooner, then maybe later in c. 14 yrs. time ?
dunno, but, as the boy scouts say : 'be prepared'.

I have watched the National Party (and they really seem not at all as 'bad' as has been said). They are standing circa 12 candidates. And they seem ok.
The very good one though, is James Reynolds, Longford/Westmeath.
very well informed; (a bit of an idealist), and none the worse for that; but the country should listen to all who are standing.

And if I was in the constituency of Dun Laoighre ... John Waters - he is standing for Anti-Corruption Ireland.

ELM327

NovemberWren wrote: »

that seems a not too bad approach. at least, you can watch their approach.

imo - Dr. Dolores Cahill, Irish Freedom Party, (Wicklow?), I do reckon, could be an tremendous asset.
and yes, - I do know this is 'freedom' .. from.. the E.U., - but, will this be happening, if not sooner, then maybe later in c. 14 yrs. time ?
dunno, but, as the boy scouts say : 'be prepared'.

I have watched the National Party (and they really seem not at all as 'bad' as has been said). They are standing circa 12 candidates. And they seem ok.
The very good one though, is James Reynolds, Longford/Westmeath.
very well informed; (a bit of an idealist), and none the worse for that; but the country should listen to all who are standing.

And if I was in the constituency of Dun Laoighre ... John Waters - he is standing for Anti-Corruption Ireland.

the national party & Irish freedom party are pro irexit anti women morons.

Wanderer78

ELM327 wrote:

the national party & Irish freedom party are pro irexit anti women morons.

....and of no concern

Snow Garden

Geuze wrote: »

IMHO, either FG or FF will be in any coalition.

The sums don't work otherwise.

If FF = 50 seats, FG = 40, therefore 90 between them.

That leaves 70 seats.

SF know a recession is inevitable. They wont form a government.
They will let FFG deal with the housing/health/debt crisis in the midst of a slowdown for another few years. 2025 is their opportunity.

Wanderer78

Snow Garden wrote:

SF know a recession is inevitable. They wont form a government. They will let FFG deal with the housing/health/debt crisis in the midst of a slowdown for another few years. 2025 is their opportunity.

No human or model can accurately predict downturns, this includes parties such as sf. Major parties such as fg and ff will continue to block alternatives from gaining this position of power, this has the potential to occur indefinitely

wexfordman2

LillySV wrote: »

That’s what the indo quotes him as saying so I’ll have to assume it’s what he said... after all the indo are one of their best advertising mediums! The facts are right... but it’s not one to use as a negative .... Varadkar should have/be trying to work harder with our nearest neighbour to increase our countries wealth instead of being an absolute puppeteer and bully boy for the eu. The way he carried our business was scandalous ... he didn’t try hard enough to secure deals with them

Excellent, so,.we are making progress, you admit that there was absolutely nothing untrue about varadkar comments.

So, seeing as it is true, then what is your issue with him.responding with some basic home truths in the face of British threats and finger pointing at Ireland.

Who ever gets in next, I desperately hope they follow the same line that leo and simon have taken with regards brexit.

And while you,.once again, coincidentally.it would seem, are taking the typical brexiteer line about us threatening our nearest neighbour and being a bully boy for the EU, I have you sussed for what you are. You lot really cant help exposing yourselves.

James Brown

The tax payer is subsiding the tax payer for the enrichment of vulture funds and private rental companies. It cannot go on for ever. There will be a crash unless things change.

Matt Barrett

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The tax payer is subsiding the tax payer for the enrichment of vulture funds and private rental companies. It cannot go on for ever. There will be a crash unless things change.

and homeowners!

LillySV

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Excellent, so,.we are making progress, you admit that there was absolutely nothing untrue about varadkar comments.

So, seeing as it is true, then what is your issue with him.responding with some basic home truths in the face of British threats and finger pointing at Ireland.

Who ever gets in next, I desperately hope they follow the same line that leo and simon have taken with regards brexit.

And while you,.once again, coincidentally.it would seem, are taking the typical brexiteer line about us threatening our nearest neighbour and being a bully boy for the EU, I have you sussed for what you are. You lot really cant help exposing yourselves.

You have Sussed what I am?? What am I? Am I member of some organization or side?? Is “me vs the other side” going on in your head??

I just highlighted the fact that Varadkar came out with those statements as if it’s bad for the U.K.... a country having a long history of economic success ...how’s that a negative? Or a hometruth as you call it ? It’s like trying to insult a rich Kid by calling them rich... pure childish dumbass carry on


so anyways ...you think that a grown man running a country should be insulting his nearest neighbouring country like that? And u just like Varadkar seem to think he should just ignore what’s going on and not bother with trying to agree an appropriate trade agreement with his nearest neighbor who we rely heavily on for exports ??

You think that’s going to work out better for Ireland ? ....

Field east

A number of posts refer to parties breaking manifesto promises. Labor has got hammered all over the place - especially the promises broken when it went into collision with FG in 2011. What alternative had we - at an unprecedented time economically and when FF were seen as toxic - but for Labour to do a deal with FG. They took the austerity path and we are where we are today - in a very different and much healthier place. The gov could have taken other paths but there is absolutely no proof of where those would have lead us to. So , fair dues to Labour for stepping into the breech- come what may. Labour must have known that there would be cuts right across the board, including SW cuts, but it still went ahead to help the country back to economic health.
NO party, in a collision , is going to get its full manifesto implemented. Probably is not even true at the best of times with a single party government. And during the period of austerity the achievement of manifesto objectives would be even more precarious. So we end up with a lot of compromises, some manifestos might be even watered down to get the other partner to agree , etc, etc, etc.
And in a collision, the bigger party gets more of its own way.
So it’s a bit disingenuous to be hammering Labour re broken promises

Bannasidhe

Field east wrote: »

A number of posts refer to parties breaking manifesto promises. Labor has got hammered all over the place - especially the promises broken when it went into collision with FG in 2011. What alternative had we - at an unprecedented time economically and when FF were seen as toxic - but for Labour to do a deal with FG. They took the austerity path and we are where we are today - in a very different and much healthier place. The gov could have taken other paths but there is absolutely no proof of where those would have lead us to. So , fair dues to Labour for stepping into the breech- come what may. Labour must have known that there would be cuts right across the board, including SW cuts, but it still went ahead to help the country back to economic health.
NO party, in a collision , is going to get its full manifesto implemented. Probably is not even true at the best of times with a single party government. And during the period of austerity the achievement of manifesto objectives would be even more precarious. So we end up with a lot of compromises, some manifestos might be even watered down to get the other partner to agree , etc, etc, etc.
And in a collision, the bigger party gets more of its own way.
So it’s a bit disingenuous to be hammering Labour re broken promises

They did have a choice. They could have gone into opposition. They chose to support FG in a cut back provision for vulnerable citizens while protecting the bondholders - or to put it another way they did the opposite of their manifesto promises. They didn't break them, they urinated on them and in the process shattered their own political base.

And FG went back into government with FF backing them from the sidelines while Labour paid the price for squandering electoral faith in them. Turns out FG didn't need them after all.
Gilmore at one point thought he would be Taoiseach - he turned out to be the Emperor in New Clothes and made sure it will be a verrrry long time - if ever - before there is a Labour Taoiseach.

SantaCruz

LillySV wrote: »

That’s what the indo quotes him as saying so I’ll have to assume it’s what he said... after all the indo are one of their best advertising mediums! The facts are right... but it’s not one to use as a negative .... Varadkar should have/be trying to work harder with our nearest neighbour to increase our countries wealth instead of being an absolute puppeteer and bully boy for the eu. The way he carried our business was scandalous ... he didn’t try hard enough to secure deals with them

There's been some bilge on Boards over the years, but this is right up there at the top.

LillySV

SantaCruz wrote: »

There's been some bilge on Boards over the years, but this is right up there at the top.

Bilge? Is that a new language ? What’s your problem with what I said ? One look at your posts and your entire focus is brexit and all posts relating to it and your hatred for the U.K and the choice they made... pretty sad...

SantaCruz

LillySV wrote: »

Bilge? Is that a new language ? What’s your problem with what I said ? One look at your posts and your entire focus is brexit and all posts relating to it and your hatred for the U.K and the choice they made... pretty sad...

Bilge is an English word. Look it up.

If I hated the UK, I'd be delighted with the way they are tearing themselves apart.

Anyway, I'll let you get back to posting absolute horse poo. Carry on.

LillySV

SantaCruz wrote: »

Bilge is an English word. Look it up.

If I hated the UK, I'd be delighted with the way they are tearing themselves apart.

Anyway, I'll let you get back to posting absolute horse poo. Carry on.

Explain what I said that was horse poo? What’s annoying your little mind so much that you have to come on the offensive ? Instead of insulting my posts why don’t ya try debate?