Is it not time EVERYONE considers not voting for FF or FG in the upcoming election

smurgen

I think it's clear now fg ignoring the housing issues and health sector is going to result in a massive backlash.

is_that_so

smurgen wrote: »

I think it's clear now fg ignoring the housing issues and health sector is going to result in a massive backlash.

Not health, housing. Health will be Slaintecare from now on but will still be an issue for the best part of a decade or 2/3 governments.

James Brown

smurgen wrote: »

I think it's clear now fg ignoring the housing issues and health sector is going to result in a massive backlash.

They didn't ignore it they helped people make money off it while more and more people suffered.

smurgen

Matt Barrett wrote: »

They didn't ignore it they helped people make money off it while more and more people suffered.

The myth their supporters ran with than only those wanting free houses were pissed off has added fuel to the fire. It was effectively ignoring the anger that those paying massive rents have.failing to deal with it. Stupid social media campaigns made them look worse. Real rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic type behaviour.

NovemberWren

Winning_Stroke wrote: »

I think everyone should consider the following voting style:

#1 - FF Headliner
#2 - FF secondary person from different part of your consitency
#3 - Independent (but really a FF-er)
#4 - Independent Former PD

A lot done, more to do.

actually, on a technical note: if you vote i.e. mark a figure in the boxes;-

#1 (your first choice)
#2 second
#3 third
#4 fourth

and if you have left the other, maybe, five boxes, empty - could the people who do the counting, slip in a further three or four preferences?

devious. yep. ..... but, could they?

also, there prob. are many people who only give two or three preferences.

Edgware

Wanderer78 wrote: »

....and of no concern

Except for the candidate who will get 38 second preferences

The Rape of Lucretia

smurgen wrote: »

I think it's clear now fg ignoring the housing issues and health sector is going to result in a massive backlash.

From what, do you conclude that FGis ignoring housing issues and health sector. Dont talk nonsense. They are the most significant parts of party policy, explained in great and costed detail in their manifesto. People really should read it, rather than making these type of illinformed nonsensical statements. Do you really believe that, is wishful thinking for a massive backlash blinding you to the inaccuracy of your statement, or are you deliberately trying to state as fact, what is not, as misinformation and fake news ?

efanton

NovemberWren wrote: »

that seems a not too bad approach. at least, you can watch their approach.

imo - Dr. Dolores Cahill, Irish Freedom Party, (Wicklow?), I do reckon, could be an tremendous asset.
and yes, - I do know this is 'freedom' .. from.. the E.U., - but, will this be happening, if not sooner, then maybe later in c. 14 yrs. time ?
dunno, but, as the boy scouts say : 'be prepared'.

I have watched the National Party (and they really seem not at all as 'bad' as has been said). They are standing circa 12 candidates. And they seem ok.
The very good one though, is James Reynolds, Longford/Westmeath.
very well informed; (a bit of an idealist), and none the worse for that; but the country should listen to all who are standing.

And if I was in the constituency of Dun Laoighre ... John Waters - he is standing for Anti-Corruption Ireland.

Watch this first is what I would suggest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WydmwuwHIoQ

You will probably turn off after about 10 minutes, but that will be enough to get the point.

I would have to question your sanity or reasoning to vote for such people, but unlike many on this board I will not tell you who you should or shouldn't vote for, that's your decision and yours alone.

As much as I do not like what FG have done in the last 9 years or what they stand for, I find it incredulous to believe that they have gangs of hooligans parked in vans ready at an hours notice to disrupt other party's political meeting.
No do I believe for one minute that the 'establishment' I assume they mean FF FG RTE and the civil service have concocted some secret conspiracy to make Irish born people a minority in their own country.

The whole thing smacks of racism, to be honest. But they then go on to explain that because accusations like that might be used its PROOF that there is a conspiracy going on. Circular arguments are never rational arguments.

They forget to tell you that last year there were approximately 80,000 immigrants TOTAL coming into our country some of which were Irish returning home after living abroad. The country is not being over run by 'foreigners' and they are not about to take over.

But lets play along. The current population of the Republic of Ireland is 4.92 million. An estimated 622,700 non-Irish nationals are living in Ireland, making up 12.7% of the total population. Many of which are here as students, EU nationals and on secondment from companies outside of the state.
With this 'vast' inflow of immigrants at 80k a year minus the Irish returning home, minus the students, minus those on secondment its going to take 54 years minimum for these immigrant to even account for 50% of the population, of course that will also require a complete ban on Irish parents having any children as well. To take control they are going to need a whole lot more than 50% and I can't see the remotest possibility of 'Irish' babies not being born.
If it is conspiracy then it is probably the worst executed conspiracy ever attempted or enacted.

Were they giving out free tin hats at the meetings?

James Brown

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

From what, do you conclude that FGis ignoring housing issues and health sector. Dont talk nonsense. They are the most significant parts of party policy, explained in great and costed detail in their manifesto. People really should read it, rather than making these type of illinformed nonsensical statements. Do you really believe that, is wishful thinking for a massive backlash blinding you to the inaccuracy of your statement, or are you deliberately trying to state as fact, what is not, as misinformation and fake news ?

He might be going by the record breaking crises being record breaking, how ever well costed the flawed policies exacerbating the crises may be.

The Rape of Lucretia

Matt Barrett wrote: »

He might be going by the record breaking crises being record breaking, how ever well costed the flawed policies exacerbating the crises may be.

Indeed. He would be wrong then, given that is not evidence of ignoring. But people like to fabricate facts to suit fake preconclusions.

James Brown

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Indeed. He would be wrong then, given that is not evidence of ignoring. But people like to fabricate facts to suit fake preconclusions.

As I say, not addressing is as good as ignoring unless they were actively making things worse on purpose which is profitable for some quarters.

NovemberWren

@efanton. yes, my 'sanity' I even sometimes question myself. But, [and I really do like other nations people coming here] But way back in/from 2002 problems I had were being massively exacerbated by foreign nationals, and, I was very, well aware that this was at the behest of FF (and maybe FG) and Lab. party voters.
It was very clear to me: how these foreign nationals are malleable to these parties.
Also, how, FF,FG,(and SF), do seem to actually cultivate in some foreign nationals; an abrogation towards the Irish, arrogance, even an overlordship, a casual dismissiveness, to many; and towards anyone who FF,FG, might see as a threat to, FF,FG, (and Lab.).
And yes, tbh, I wonder if in the future, given that many of these 'are being cultivated' by FF, FG; will they be the future voters of FF,FG (Lab.); i.e. parties who ain't real fond of deh poor.

Yet, I do think there is even triple-think in all of this by FF, FG, and that now it might be, that they themselves will ask that immigration be more controlled - which they themselves would not dare to do unless there was turmoil here.

But also, on a (my) more mercenary note, I believe this 'turmoil' now; will make the (us) Irish, demand better business opportunities, at the very grass roots level.

Idbatterim

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You seem overly obsessed with welfare and the people on it. I think we've much bigger issues.

no matt, the billions spent on welfare. margaret cash, knocks out a few kids, what is the cost to the state of the maternity hospital, child benefit, free house, any issues the kids may have and the significant cost it might be to the state? education. they then no doubt go onto a life of welfare and crime, pump out a few of the same. The cost is off the wall! this isnt some pocket change! all the freebies and the insane cost of the near free social housing, on housing that is bloody expensive, cant be swept under the mat...

PommieBast

Field east wrote: »

A number of posts refer to parties breaking manifesto promises. Labor has got hammered all over the place - especially the promises broken when it went into collision with FG in 2011. What alternative had we - at an unprecedented time economically and when FF were seen as toxic - but for Labour to do a deal with FG.

Same thing happened with the UK LibDems. Does not help that the media is basically ignoring them, even though unlike SF et al they actually have government experience.

Field east

Bannasidhe wrote: »

They did have a choice. They could have gone into opposition. They chose to support FG in a cut back provision for vulnerable citizens while protecting the bondholders - or to put it another way they did the opposite of their manifesto promises. They didn't break them, they urinated on them and in the process shattered their own political base.

And FG went back into government with FF backing them from the sidelines while Labour paid the price for squandering electoral faith in them. Turns out FG didn't need them after all.
Gilmore at one point thought he would be Taoiseach - he turned out to be the Emperor in New Clothes and made sure it will be a verrrry long time - if ever - before there is a Labour Taoiseach.

You are entitled to your opinion. But could you elaborate in some of the points you made eg if L went into opposition , what then you you see forming a stable gov - which was extremely crucial IMO. If two partners have opposite points of view re an aspect of their manifestos , then one side may have to give in in the hope that they may win on other aspects - compromises and give and take applies. Remember we were in unprecedented times at the time- totally uncharted waters- and nobody knew what the next day was going to bring.
What should gov have done instead of protecting the bond holders - remember that by not protecting the bond holders there would have been serious knock on effects - both positive and negative

Bannasidhe

Idbatterim wrote: »

no matt, the billions spent on welfare. margaret cash, knocks out a few kids, what is the cost to the state of the maternity hospital, child benefit, free house, any issues the kids may have and the significant cost it might be to the state? education. they then no doubt go onto a life of welfare and crime, pump out a few of the same. The cost is off the wall! this isnt some pocket change! all the freebies and the insane cost of the near free social housing, on housing that is bloody expensive, cant be swept under the mat...

I understand your frustration but the fact remains that no tenant gets a 'free' house unless they are not paying rent and in that case no-one (not even when it is claimed otherwise) is saying those in arrears should not be evicted.
In reality the nearest to getting free houses are those landlords who are having their buy to rent mortgages subsidised (if not paid in full) by taxpayers.
That is insane.
The State is literally helping pay for the investments of private individuals and investment funds while still leaving tenants without any real security in their accommodation.

That cannot continue.

The Maternity hospital - don't even get me started on that! How many millions are they proposing to spend on that and the State won't even own it! And now the Vatican is making noises that no abortions should be performed there.
That's insane.

Child benefit is paid to every child who is deemed eligible. That includes the children of multimillionaires. What ever your view of the likes of Margaret Cash - are her children less deserving of child benefit than Michael O'Leary's were?

As for your assertion that 'no doubt' the children of those in the 'free' housing, getting welfare will go onto a life of crime - did all the children who were raised in the social housing Ireland built in the past go on to commit crimes?
No, they did not. The vast majority went on to pay their taxes etc, just like the children who grew up in homes their parents owned.

You are in danger of dismissing everyone in the lower socio-economic bracket as 'lesser'/ lazy/feckless/criminal - the Victorians did just that and what did that bring - famine, workhouses, slums.

Bannasidhe

Field east wrote: »

You are entitled to your opinion. But could you elaborate in some of the points you made eg if L went into opposition , what then you you see forming a stable gov - which was extremely crucial IMO. If two partners have opposite points of view re an aspect of their manifestos , then one side may have to give in in the hope that they may win on other aspects - compromises and give and take applies. Remember we were in unprecedented times at the time- totally uncharted waters- and nobody knew what the next day was going to bring.
What should gov have done instead of protecting the bond holders - remember that by not protecting the bond holders there would have been serious knock on effects - both positive and negative

At the time I was a member of the Labour Party and my opinion - along with many other members - was that to go into coalition with FG was to betray those who voted for the LP based on their election manifesto. It was also pointed out that it would be political suicide - and so it was.

There was no reason - bar party politics - that a government of National Unity couldn't have been formed to see us through those 'unprecedented' times when we had to do what the Troika told us anyway.
If Labour hadn't been so quick to hop into bed with FG then that option could have been explored.

FG made zero effort to protect the Irish taxpayer - or citizen - it simply loaded us with debt and Labour went along with it.

We have the 3rd largest debt burden in the world

It’s just over €200 billion. On a per capita basis that’s the third highest in the world, eclipsed only by the US and Japan. It equates to €42,000 for every man, woman and child in the State or nearly €90,000 for every worker in the economy.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-s-200bn-debt-burden-how-did-we-get-here-1.3943085

storker

Speaking of not voting for FG, one of Simon Harris' election cars barged in front of me when I was getting petrol this morning. Nice job connecting with the voter, Simon...

smurgen

Bannasidhe wrote: »

At the time I was a member of the Labour Party and my opinion - along with many other members - was that to go into coalition with FG was to betray those who voted for the LP based on their election manifesto. It was also pointed out that it would be political suicide - and so it was.

There was no reason - bar party politics - that a government of National Unity couldn't have been formed to see us through those 'unprecedented' times when we had to do what the Troika told us anyway.
If Labour hadn't been so quick to hop into bed with FG then that option could have been explored.

FG made zero effort to protect the Irish taxpayer - or citizen - it simply loaded us with debt and Labour went along with it.

We have the 3rd largest debt burden in the world
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-s-200bn-debt-burden-how-did-we-get-here-1.3943085

And the debt grew in the boom period while we have no new infrastructure to show for it.fg have squandered one of the greatest opportunities in a generation.

smurgen

Possibly one of the biggest reasons for everyone to vote for anyone but FF and FG.

https://www.thejournal.ie/suicide-recession-2-1994514-Mar2015/

RESEARCH ON SUICIDE rates in Ireland has shown that there were 476 more male suicides than would have been expected during 2008 and 2012 had the recession not happened.

PommieBast

storker wrote: »

Speaking of not voting for FG, one of Simon Harris' election cars barged in front of me when I was getting petrol this morning. Nice job connecting with the voter, Simon...

Reminds me of this: https://wearesouthdevon.com/torquays-past-mps-rupert-allason-always-tip-waiter/

Edgware

storker wrote: »

Speaking of not voting for FG, one of Simon Harris' election cars barged in front of me when I was getting petrol this morning. Nice job connecting with the voter, Simon...

Serves you right buying petrol and destroying the environment.
Anyway next week Simon will be back on the bike

I Am The Law

Bannasidhe wrote: »

At the time I was a member of the Labour Party and my opinion - along with many other members - was that to go into coalition with FG was to betray those who voted for the LP based on their election manifesto. It was also pointed out that it would be political suicide - and so it was.

There was no reason - bar party politics - that a government of National Unity couldn't have been formed to see us through those 'unprecedented' times when we had to do what the Troika told us anyway.
If Labour hadn't been so quick to hop into bed with FG then that option could have been explored.

FG made zero effort to protect the Irish taxpayer - or citizen - it simply loaded us with debt and Labour went along with it.

We have the 3rd largest debt burden in the world
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-s-200bn-debt-burden-how-did-we-get-here-1.3943085

Correct, and Sinn Fein filled the 'Labour party' shaped hole.

Bannasidhe

I Am The Law wrote: »

Correct, and Sinn Fein filled the 'Labour party' shaped hole.

Exactly.

I would have preferred it had been the Social Democrats tbh but they don't have the same well oiled party machine/structure.

My hope is that the SDs hang in there, maybe gain a seat or two, and build.

James Brown

Idbatterim wrote: »

no matt, the billions spent on welfare. margaret cash, knocks out a few kids, what is the cost to the state of the maternity hospital, child benefit, free house, any issues the kids may have and the significant cost it might be to the state? education. they then no doubt go onto a life of welfare and crime, pump out a few of the same. The cost is off the wall! this isnt some pocket change! all the freebies and the insane cost of the near free social housing, on housing that is bloody expensive, cant be swept under the mat...

So you won't be voting FG?

James Brown

storker wrote: »

Speaking of not voting for FG, one of Simon Harris' election cars barged in front of me when I was getting petrol this morning. Nice job connecting with the voter, Simon...

Reminds me of this...

Bannasidhe

storker wrote: »

Speaking of not voting for FG, one of Simon Harris' election cars barged in front of me when I was getting petrol this morning. Nice job connecting with the voter, Simon...

Many years ago I was taking part in the Cobh to Blackrock sailing race in Cork. Our little sail boat was happily zipping along when suddenly a flaming great yacht came barreling through, stole our wind (something that is considered extremely foul play), nearly swamped us, and that was the end of our race.
The smug face at the helm of the yacht was Simon Coveney. He smirked at us as his wash sent us off course.
And I thought ok Simon - now I know what kind of man you really are.

storker

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Reminds me of this...

I think your link is broken...

Jinglejangle69

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Many years ago I was taking part in the Cobh to Blackrock sailing race in Cork. Our little sail boat was happily zipping along when suddenly a flaming great yacht came barreling through, stole our wind (something that is considered extremely foul play), nearly swamped us, and that was the end of our race.
The smug face at the helm of the yacht was Simon Coveney. He smirked at us as his wash sent us off course.
And I thought ok Simon - now I know what kind of man you really are.

Are you OK?

Bannasidhe

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Are you OK?

I'm not a FG voter so I'm grand thanks for asking.