Is it not time EVERYONE considers not voting for FF or FG in the upcoming election

Jinglejangle69

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Building is better than leasing for the taxpayer leasing.
The rest is already in place.
TBF you're the first one to raise that regarding the cost of materials. I'm sure the vulture funds factor it into the 25 year leases.

Vulture funds account for 1% of property rentals in Ireland.

Why are you so obsessed with them?

They are a tiny tiny part of the problem.

Lovely soundbite though.

NaFirinne

I'll be voting for the National Party

SantaCruz

NaFirinne wrote: »

I'll be voting for the National Party

Good stuff. Waste your vote on nativist cranks. White power!

Bannasidhe

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Vulture funds account for 1% of property rentals in Ireland.

Why are you so obsessed with them?

They are a tiny tiny part of the problem.

Lovely soundbite though.

Nearly €700m paid to private landlords out of taxpayers money in 2018.

https://www.thejournal.ie/housing-private-payments-4507508-Feb2019/

It doesn't matter who that private landlord is - that is a massive amount of money being paid by the State to those in the private housing market.
It is a direct subsidy paid to investors - and tenants don't even get secure accommodation with vulture funds being the most likely to evict on spurious grounds.

Meanwhile the Minister for Housing acknowledged the existence of loopholes but claimed there is nothing he can do as it would be inappropriate to interfere... You honestly couldn't make this up.

Housing Minister Eoghan Murphy has claimed he can do nothing to stop vulture funds from swooping on renters and evicting them from their homes amid warnings the existing laws are "riddled with loopholes".

Mr Murphy repeatedly said it would be "inappropriate" for him to directly intervene in the cases

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/minister-says-it-would-be-inappropriate-to-intervene-as-pbp-call-for-ban-on-evictions-951556.html

SantaCruz

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Nearly €700m paid to private landlords out of taxpayers money in 2018.

https://www.thejournal.ie/housing-private-payments-4507508-Feb2019/

It doesn't matter who that private landlord is - that is a massive amount of money being paid by the State to those in the private housing market.
It is a direct subsidy paid to investors - and tenants don't even get secure accommodation with vulture funds being the most likely to evict on spurious grounds.

In what sense is it a subsidy? Are they paying higher than market rates?

I really don't care who actually owns the property as long as the taxpayer does not get stiffed. You will know that it's pretty common for companies to rent their buildings rather than buying them as buying them ties up capital that can be better used elsewhere.

Bannasidhe

SantaCruz wrote: »

In what sense is it a subsidy? Are they paying higher than market rates?

I really don't care who actually owns the property as long as the taxpayer does not get stiffed. You will know that it's pretty common for companies to rent their buildings rather than buying them as buying them ties up capital that can be better used elsewhere.

If you cannot see why I would have an issue with €700m a year and rising being paid out by the State to keep people in insecure housing while at the same time dragging it's heels when it comes to building LA social housing I can't help you.

Nor can I help you if you don't consider that €700m a year being pumped into the private market could very well inflate market rates - so not only are they paying 'market rates' - they are ensuring those rates stay high.

FG's housing policy can be summed up as "We can't interfere with the market but we can subsidise it by the back door"

SantaCruz

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If you cannot see why I would have an issue with €700m a year and rising being paid out by the State to keep people in insecure housing while at the same time dragging it's heels when it comes to building LA social housing I can't help you.

Not a very pleasant or engaging response to a fairly polite question.

If you don't understand economics, you can just say that and nobody will think less of you. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Bannasidhe

SantaCruz wrote: »

Not a very pleasant or engaging response to a fairly polite question.

If you don't understand economics, you can just say that and nobody will think less of you. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Seriously?

You call me impolite and then question my ability to understand economics because I say that handing €700m a year to private landlords is a backdoor subsidy and direct interference in the private market?

I am very amused.
And just a little disappointed that the best response you can offer is the hoary old 'you don't understand economics' -
That's usually what the government responsible for this subsidy, increasing our national debt, overruns on every bit of infrastructure (or the one's that haven't been abandoned for being too expensive), massive wastage of public fund, and don't forget that printer say whenever anyone is critical of them.
No rebuttal - just "you don't understand economics".

SantaCruz

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Seriously?

You call me impolite and then question my ability to understand economics because I say that handing €700m a year to private landlords is a backdoor subsidy and direct interference in the private market?

I am very amused.
And just a little disappointed that the best response you can offer is the hoary old 'you don't understand economics' -
That's usually what the government responsible for this subsidy, increasing our national debt, overruns on every bit of infrastructure (or the one's that haven't been abandoned for being too expensive), massive wastage of public fund, and don't forget that printer say whenever anyone is critical of them.
No rebuttal - just "you don't understand economics".

Fair point - much weaker than your argument:

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If you cannot see why...<restating your claim>...I can't help you

Seems a tad hypocritical to be honest, but what do I know? Anyway, have a good evening.

Bannasidhe

SantaCruz wrote: »

Fair point - much weaker than your argument:



Seems a tad hypocritical to be honest, but what do I know? Anyway, have a good evening.

It's not hypocritical in the slightest.
I have explained exactly what my issue is - several times - you don't seem to think it's an issue but haven't made any effort to tell me why you think giving €700m to private landlords is sound economic policy.
I have said why I believe it isn't.

I can't help you understand my position as you have failed to explain your position.

Idbatterim

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Was talking to someone who was in Sweden last week.

No litter on the streets, no j walking, people were leaving their bikes down and just walking off safe they won't be robbed.

The whole country has respect for each other and crime is miniscule.

That's why they don't mind paying high taxes, because its not just going to paying for free houses for wasters.

The whole country works together.

Its time we started looking at the attitude of some of our citizens as well as government.

But noone will dare speak the truth.

Yeah. You’re bang on there ! They know all the rights and entitlements here , nothing of responsibility. One of the reasons varadkar is losing seats

Idbatterim

joe swanson wrote: »

Serious amount of shinnerbot threads being started lately this being no exception. I think anyone who is not from the scrounging classes will see through their bluster and sinister underbelly

Scrounging class ? Several of the lads I went to private school with are giving sf a vote. You think they should be happy with A few euro a week better off on the average industrial wage , while property robbery in Dublin drastically impacts their living standards ?!!!!! What do you suggest ? A vote for ff is obviously comedy. But give pinnochio another shot and his Taoiseachs pension?

Idbatterim

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

What SF policies have won you over?

It’s rather ffg are incompetent and useless liars. If power usc all they care about , I see a swing to and as the only way to bring them into line. Even if they don’t lose power ffg, I think they will think twice about delivering nothing but waffle and lies now !

storker

Idbatterim wrote: »

It’s rather ffg are incompetent and useless liars. If power usc all they care about , I see a swing to and as the only way to bring them into line. Even if they don’t lose power ffg, I think they will think twice about delivering nothing but waffle and lies now !

Wait...what? FG are no longer your number one?

Idbatterim

storker wrote: »

Wait...what? FG are no longer your number one?

I’m in a screwed position. I’ll vote greens, sf. Fg candidate will get in , on my area too.but they need a serious scare. This “ vote fg” yeah great. If you’re not being done on property in Dublin I can see that view. If you’re paying two k for an average two bed apartment in Dublin ? Lol. A country where nobody can afford cents on water , lpt , but a fifty percent marginal rate and outrageous property prices that hit the working poor are fine. The narrative and endless focus on the pensioners here for decades is morally corrupt

efanton

joe swanson wrote: »

Serious amount of shinnerbot threads being started lately this being no exception. I think anyone who is not from the scrounging classes will see through their bluster and sinister underbelly

I take exception to that comment.

I created this thread in an endeavour to get a feel for the mood of the electorate. Living in a rural area its hard to get a feel sometimes of what the mood is like in the cities and around the rest of the country.

The question has been raised on many occasions in the last year or so by various people I have met socially, so no I am not a shinner bot, or any other kind of bot, as you call it trying to drum up support for any particular party.

Initially I was one of those voters that had an open mind. Not having previously participated in a political forum I was prepared to be persuaded on various issues. What I have seen has been eye opening. They very people that I thought would be the ones that put forward considered, supported, and educated arguments (predominantly FF and FG party supporters) have it seems, in this thread anyway, been the very ones to race to the gutter with unsubstantiated opinion and slurs without out much substance being put forward with regards to the alternative proposals of the party they might wish to support.

I had expected people that were critical of SF proposal to actually attack their proposals and give evidence as to why they were wrong or why a different party had a better solution.

SantaCruz

efanton wrote: »

I had expected people that were critical of SF proposal to actually attack their proposals and give evidence as to why they were wrong or why a different party had a better solution.

On the policies, let me paste in RTE's 'ten key points' from SF's manifesto:

1) Income and employment

The party says it will abolish the Universal Social Charge on the first €30,000 earned. It says that will cost €1.2 billion a year.

Sinn Féin says the measure would save workers up to €700 a year.

Meanwhile it says it will oblige employers to pay a living wage where they can afford to do so, while also legislating to fine companies that do not work to close the gender pay gap.

Sinn Féin will also bring in laws against bogus self-employment, ban employers from taking workers' tips and introduce a 'right to disconnect' outside of working hours.

2) Housing

The party has pledged to build 100,000 council homes over five years, at a cost of €6.5 billion.

The party says a refundable tax credit will reduce rent by €1,500 a year, while they have also pledged to freeze rents for three years.

They are also promising to abolish the property tax at a cost of €485m per annum, while they will give the Central Bank the powers to cap mortgage interest rates.

3) Pensions

Sinn Féin says it will restore the eligibility age for the State pension to 65 - a measure which will cost €368m a year.

At the same time it will end mandatory retirement at 65, so that people can continue to work if they want.

It also plans to increase the pension rate by €20 over the term of government, which will cost an additional €700m.

Meanwhile it promises to "resolve" the pension gender gap, which it views as a punishment for women who took time out to care for children.

4) Health

The party says it will introduce free GP care at a cost of €455m per year.

It has also promised an additional 1,500 GPs for primary care, at a cost of €82.5m.

It says it will hire 2,500 more nurses and midwives, and 1,000 more doctors and consultants, at a cost of €358m.

Sinn Féin says it will open 1,500 more beds at a cost of €480m annually and €1 billion in capital.

Meanwhile it says it will deliver 12 million additional home help hours at a cost of €59m.

5) Crime

Sinn Féin has pledged to increase Garda numbers to 16,000 at a cost of €142m.

It says it will recruit 2,000 extra civilian staff to release more gardaí onto frontline duties, at a cost of €80m.

The party says it will also establish a sentencing council.

Meanwhile it will invest €2m in more resources for the Courts Service, the DPP and CAB.

6) Children

Sinn Féin has pledged to increase maternity or paternity benefit by an additional 26 weeks and increase the payment by €50 a week.

The party says it will reduce the cost of childcare by €500 per child per month, at a cost of €500m a year.

It says it will recruit additional 750 social workers, 100 additional administrative staff and 125 aftercare workers.

It has also pledged to invest €9.6m to up-skill workers in the early childhood sector to degree level.

The party is also promising to increase funding by €6.5 million to increase access to Special Needs Assistants, while it has pledged €15m for a Baby Box scheme.

7) Education

The party says it will abolish third level fees at a cost of €243m and increasing the student maintenance grant by 10%.

Sinn Féin also says it will increase the capitation grant to schools and legislate to end voluntary contributions. It will also establish a Back to School Bonus child benefit payment of €140, at a cost of €173m, and make school books free.

Meanwhile it will reduce the primary school student-teacher ratio to 20:1, increase funding to DEIS schools and end public subsidies to fee-paying schools.

It also promises to reduce the waiting times for special needs assessments, recruit more educational psychologists and establishing a panel of 200 speech and language therapists for schools.

8) Irish unity

Sinn Féin says it will establish a joint Oireachtas Committee, as well as an all-island Citizen's Assembly, on Irish unity.

This is with a view to ultimately holding referendums in Ireland and Northern Ireland on the subject.

Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald said Irish unity should be a bottom line for whoever is in government after the general election.

She said she cannot see her party going into power without work on Irish unity being part of the programme for government.

9) Agriculture

Sinn Féin wants Europe's Common Agriculture Policy re-balanced towards smaller family farms - and away from the larger processors which it says are pushing family farms out of business.

The party will also establish a new government-led commission on the future of the family farm.

The party says it will improve suckler and ewe payments for farmers, while also offering new tax reliefs for the sector.

Meanwhile Sinn Féin says it will not ratify the Mercosur-EU trade deal due to the negative impact it will have on Ireland's agriculture sector. It says it will not ratify any future trade deals that "negatively impacts Irish agricultural interests".

10) Climate

Sinn Féin has reiterated its opposition to carbon tax increases until there are viable alternatives available.

Instead the party says it will encourage participation in energy generation projects at a local level, including establishing a framework for microgeneration.

Meanwhile the State will reduce its energy requirements while also investing in better public transport systems and more electric vehicle charging.

At the same time Sinn Féin will ban new offshore exploration licences and introduce a total ban on fracking, while also divesting the State of any fossil fuel projects.

It will also establish a Just Transition Task Force to assist those who may be impacted by the move away from carbon-heavy industries and jobs.

Anything jump out at you about their promises, before we go into whether or not they are good ideas?

smurgen

Seems like Leo's Norther Ireland figures being called out as nonsense.not only that but since when has he been concerned about the people of Norther Ireland? He normally keeps he's nose well out for fear of offending his Tory counterparts.

christy c

smurgen wrote: »

Seems like Leo's Norther Ireland figures being called out as nonsense

He might have been jealous of the amount of times Mary Lou was caught spoofing?

smurgen

christy c wrote: »

He might have been jealous of the amount of times Mary Lou was caught spoofing?

Funny after he incorrectly said the Berlin rent freezes hadn't worked she quickly and helpfully reminded him they hadn't been put in place yet.

the_syco

SantaCruz wrote: »

Anything jump out at you about their promises, before we go into whether or not they are good ideas?

It doesn't mention that they'll raise the Vacant Site Levy. In theory this is good. But in practise it'll cost the County Councils money.

So in the short term, the County Councils will have less money as they'll have to pay an increase of Vacant Site Levy.

In the long term, less money will come in everyone will get rid of the vacant sites any way they can. Build the absolute minimum on the site so it's no longer classed as "vacant".

the_syco

Matt Barrett wrote: »

SF or any party willing to move away from enriching private rental companies from the tax payers pocket is worth a vote IMO.

Are SF going to get rid of HAP, and build 50,000 houses with their own money?

smurgen wrote: »

Funny after he incorrectly said the Berlin rent freezes hadn't worked she quickly and helpfully reminded him they hadn't been put in place yet.

Last time Berlin did a rent freeze, I'm pretty sure apartment building halted.

joeysoap

I think this pretty clear

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/20000-northern-ireland-households-are-now-homeless-37719853.html

James Brown

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Vulture funds account for 1% of property rentals in Ireland.

Why are you so obsessed with them?

They are a tiny tiny part of the problem.

Lovely soundbite though.

That's the national average not in the areas they operate. We tax them very little.
The majority of new builds are build to rent. They are feeding off the crisis and FG is a 25 year lease customer with our tax money.
This has been covered. You're just playing rodeo clown. Run out, distract.

James Brown

the_syco wrote: »

Are SF going to get rid of HAP, and build 50,000 houses with their own money?


Last time Berlin did a rent freeze, I'm pretty sure apartment building halted.

I said move away.

Yurt2

the_syco wrote: »

Are SF going to get rid of HAP, and build 50,000 houses with their own money?


Last time Berlin did a rent freeze, I'm pretty sure apartment building halted.

Yes, it's my understanding form their manifesto that they intedn to ditch HAP, and roll the savings into general housing budget.

There has been a housing construction boom in Berlin of the past few years. The 'supply fixes everything' bots hold that this tempers rental and purchase inflation - the exact opposite happened with rents doubling. If supply fixes affordability issues, why does a construction boom see rents double?

Similarly, we built almost 100k units in Ireland in 2006 (no joke). Supply-bot logic says this should have seen a dent in property price inflation (and indeed we were told this at the time). Instead... *drum roll* house price inflation hit 14% that year.

Supply-bot people love the simple solution. The reality is, in a low interest rate environment, you can build as much as you want. Property becomes a feeding frenzy, and usually institutional investors make a killing and the working stiff pays.

The only thing that can be done to mitigate this is strong state intervention making provision for at-cost affordable like Singapore or Vienna. Everything else is wasting people's time.

smurgen

Found it strange that varadkar used John Delaney he was only defending him not so long ago.

John Delaney shouldn’t have to resign over ‘unusual’ loan he was saying just last year.


https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/leo-varadkar-john-delaney-shouldn-t-have-to-resign-over-unusual-loan-1.3833023

James Brown

smurgen wrote: »

Found it strange that varadkar used John Delaney he was only defending him not so long ago.

John Delaney shouldn’t have to resign over ‘unusual’ loan he was saying just last year.


https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/international/leo-varadkar-john-delaney-shouldn-t-have-to-resign-over-unusual-loan-1.3833023

Just Leo trying to be trendy and hip. He practically gave them a 'no harm done' pass with the 20m and I'm sure Delaney couldn't give two f***s. Leo critical of another horse after it's bolted. Good man.

rn

It's nearly time to vote for FG or FF in order of preference. Party politics has delivered this great country we live in. Steady as she goes, keep prosperous Ireland going.

James Brown

rn wrote: »

It's nearly time to vote for FG or FF in order of preference. Party politics has delivered this great country we live in. Steady as she goes, keep prosperous Ireland going.

Those billionaires can't do it alone!