Is it not time EVERYONE considers not voting for FF or FG in the upcoming election

freshpopcorn

Insidious wrote: »

I can't understand how the two main parties can be so self righteous about not going in to government with SF... When one of them pretty much bankrupt the country and the other asks them to help for their term of office.. it's madness. Basically both fg and FF have just been in government together... SF are going to bring the retirement cage back to 65. So for the first time ever I'm going to give them a try... Maybe they'll be better. Maybe worse... At least having an alternative might light a fire under the two main parties.. No political party should outright exclude another as potential partners.. otherwise you are excluding a huge portion of voters from being represented.

I think SF would want to be careful saying they'd go into coalition with anybody.
Any SF voter I know want nothing to do with FF/FG.

hmmm

Until such time as we get a proper party which represents the interests of taxpayers, and doesn't simply waste our money on overspending, many of us are stuck with FF & FG.

The alternatives are laughable, they'll bankrupt the place or turn us into a laughing stock within a year. We'll have Palestinian flags flying from Government buildings, taxes on workers going through the roof, inward investment collapsing, our pensions robbed with a "wealth" tax, and houses for everyone who doesn't want to work. Just because the media loves talking about the homeless and health, doesn't mean the rest of us are willing to hand over more and more of our family income to a bottomless pool of wasteful spending.

Spanish Eyes

Labour should really have been the buffer between the FFG and the Hard Left.

What happened there? Not that they will make a difference anymore anyway. Fight between Alan Kelly and Brendan Howlin beckons.

What are their policies?

darklighter

lawred2 wrote: »

Think I'll go for them and the greens..

My local FG and FF candidates are Reilly, Farrell and Darragh O Brien..

Thanks. But no thanks.

it really is a sad state of affairs when that's whats on offer from the 2 main parties.

while I wouldn't vote for anyone on the loony left normally, those 3 would make one think very hard about it :eek:

touts

Irish people don't want socialism. They realise that the idea that you can have everything you want and someone else will pay for it is at best an empty promise and at worse a threat as the vast majority of Irish people fall into that "someone else" category. Only the welfare class votes socialist. Everyone else has too much intelligence. Talk to any emigrant from Eastern Europe and they will tell you all about the empty promises of socialism and most are utterly bemused that we allow hard line Marxistslike Sinn Fein and Paul Murphy's mob to peddle their lies relatively unchecked.

So who is there other than FF and FG. I know what you mean and I will probably vote independent in this election. I do so because yes I'm sick of FF and FG but there is no party on the center right (or compassionate conservatism) that I can switch to. We need a new economically right wing party that has liberal social policies (i.e. Not tainted by religious fundamentalists or racists). You can be economically conservative and believe things like welfare needs a radical overhaul to force people off their obese asses while also believing that the genuinely needy should be protected and people have a right to choose their own path to happiness. Until a party comes up that offers that well we're sort of limited on who to vote for.

Benoconnor80

Some whopper paragraphs being posted in here. FG will be back in no problem. The average pi ter is doing well. Noone cares about the rest.

Spanish Eyes

touts,

both ff an fg are centre left IMO.

They are not looking after people outside of that circle apart from the MNCs

And at the same time are crucifying the workers and contributors.

Mongfinder General

touts wrote: »

Irish people don't want socialism. They realise that the idea that you can have everything you want and someone else will pay for it is at best an empty promise and at worse a threat as the vast majority of Irish people fall into that "someone else" category. Only the welfare class votes socialist. Everyone else has too much intelligence. Talk to any emigrant from Eastern Europe and they will tell you all about the empty promises of socialism and most are utterly bemused that we allow hard line Marxistslike Sinn Fein and Paul Murphy's mob to peddle their lies relatively unchecked.

So who is there other than FF and FG. I know what you mean and I will probably vote independent in this election. I do so because yes I'm sick of FF and FG but there is no party on the center right (or compassionate conservatism) that I can switch to. We need a new economically right wing party that has liberal social policies (i.e. Not tainted by religious fundamentalists or racists). You can be economically conservative and believe things like welfare needs a radical overhaul to force people off their obese asses while also believing that the genuinely needy should be protected and people have a right to choose their own path to happiness. Until a party comes up that offers that well we're sort of limited on who to vote for.

We have socialism right now. Tax rate of 40% + usc + prsi. Billions dumped into a health service every year that is not fit for purpose. A massive welfare state. God help us when our economy takes a turn and we have 10 or 15% unemployment. Open borders whereby anybody from the EU's population can relocate here legally - we are not prepared for this and this is borne out in the shortage of housing, transport and healthcare.
Irish people will eventually get fed up with watching their kids getting nowhere in life and if a downturn and election comes at the wrong time there will be a massive shift to the hard right - what form that takes is beyond my ken

flazio

debok wrote: »

But why not try get rid of them. Then they might realise they have to try harder the next time

They'll only have two weeks to do so because the Dail will be unable to form a government and we'll go back to the polls.

Snow Garden

flazio wrote: »

They'll only have two weeks to do so because the Dail will be unable to form a government and we'll go back to the polls.

Not a good enough reason to vote FFG. Terrible reason in fact. FFG love you types.

heroics

Insidious wrote: »

I can't understand how the two main parties can be so self righteous about not going in to government with SF... When one of them pretty much bankrupt the country and the other asks them to help for their term of office.. it's madness. Basically both fg and FF have just been in government together... SF are going to bring the retirement cage back to 65. So for the first time ever I'm going to give them a try... Maybe they'll be better. Maybe worse... At least having an alternative might light a fire under the two main parties.. No political party should outright exclude another as potential partners.. otherwise you are excluding a huge portion of voters from being represented.

I will probably vote fg/ff since they are more or less the same. if I thought one of them would go with sf I definitely would not vote for them.

Course they will bring the retirement age back to 65 along with everything else they promise off the magic money tree.

James Brown

heroics wrote: »

I will probably vote fg/ff since they are more or less the same. if I thought one of them would go with sf I definitely would not vote for them.

Course they will bring the retirement age back to 65 along with everything else they promise off the magic money tree.

What brand of magic money tree pays for the NCH over run? 25 year leases for apartments? Buying houses? Allows low tax rates for vulture funds?
Plenty of money for the above. Try talk about something for the tax payer, 'magic money tree'.
Keep voting FF/FG it's true at least we know for a fact what we are getting. And if you're happy with that, fair enough.

Spanish Eyes

Sinn Fein will sort out all our problems. Wont they?

There is really no alternative to the status quo. But I'm OK with FG. Will shudder at FF TBH, but who knows what our country cousins will do?

markodaly

A very pertinent thread but the proof is in the pudding. If FF and FG are that bad, then why do people vote for them?
I created a thread about a collective left-wing block taking on the status quo, expecting the perpetual detractors and moaners of the government to post something constructive, but I was left disappointed. The thread kinda died, as they just want to post on what FG is doing wrong, not what their preferred parties could do right. Nub of the problem right there. Hurlers on the ditch.

People are not really interested in alternatives, but they want to rant and rave as if its light therapy. Probably because they know deep down, the other crowd are no better.

Just take a look at the multiple threads about the General Election. Bickering, inane points scoring, one up man-ship, its all very adversarial. That is all we have.
Yet, there is absolutely zero policy discussion, and I mean ZERO.

Don't like FG's economic policy fine?
What is your preferred policy and why? Saying something akin to 'FG suck blah blah blah' is akin to playground banter of 'You are smelly'. It is worth nothing and adds nothing.

Until we actually talk about policy, then things will remain the same and the people who think they are fighting 'da power' by posting perpetual inane stuff about 'da government' are part of the problem, it's just they are too stupid to realise it.

So yes, for the foreseeable future, I cannot see a government without either FG or FF. It's up to the other crowd to sort themselves out.

Spanish Eyes

OK, call me what you want, I don't care anymore.

So called refugees in DP should fkn stay there imo. The demands to house them elsewhere are ridiculous when you think of our own people. ok I will be called racist.

NO, I am a realist.

Calhoun

More than likely vote for some combination of FG/FF, the reality is id rather have options but i am in an income bracket where ill be taxed more and will be discounted for services ect required because of said income bracket.

So that pretty much discounts most of the left, it might be better if they had some sort of coherent message but they don't. Social democrats in particular as i have said before showed how capable they are in the local council elections when they fielded a candidate they shouldn't have, called anyone who questioned it a racist and fought with leadership.

Up until this point they were actually who i would have voted for because i was really impressed with how Catherine Murphy tackled the issue of DOB but now seem to be overshadowed by Gannon.

Its at a stage where most parties have their flaws, so its pick which one that we might come out better under.

CageWager

Most people in this country are never happy. Of course there are problems and hard cases but in general it is a great place to live. Lots of job opportunities and a raft of free public services. People bang on about housing, health etc. but lets keep it in context - people are giving out about how long they have to wait for their free operation or their taxpayer funded social house. Try living in America where it costs you 100k for an emergency operation, 100k for a basic college degree, etc. Better yet, go live in the 2nd or 3rd world where people don’t have a pot to piss in because their corrupt leaders pillage everything they can get their hands on before going into exile (probably in Ireland).

Housing and health are incredibly complex problems to solve but the left wing parties want to make it seem like it could all be solved overnight. It won’t. Irish people want to have their cake and eat it too. They want cheap houses built to a high quality standard but they also want them built within weeks. They want a world class health service without paying high tax. They want to consume massive quantities of water without paying for it. They want climate change while still driving their 2.4 kids around in the 4 litre diesel Range Rover.

Im no fan of FG, but I have no viable alternative. The left are nutters with incredibly destructive and deluded economic policies (remember Syriza?) and FF literally bankrupted this country only a little over 10 years ago. People will come on here and make pithy remarks about FG and get lots of thanks but at the end of the day they are the best option for the middle ground, which is the majority of people in Ireland.

Hercule Poirot

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Labour should really have been the buffer between the FFG and the Hard Left.

What happened there? Not that they will make a difference anymore anyway. Fight between Alan Kelly and Brendan Howlin beckons.

What are their policies?

You can thank Eamon Gilmore for the total decline of the Labour party - went into coalition in 2011, broke every single pre election promise they made, u-turns all over the place and I'm not surprised that people won't vote for them because there is no trust anymore

People may have short memories when it comes to politics but it'll be a while for the stains of 2011 to be washed away

Phoebas

Hercule Poirot wrote: »

People may have short memories when it comes to politics but it'll be a while for the stains of 2011 to be washed away

Gotta feel sorry for Labour.

FF almost sunk the country, had us begging the IMF and the EU for money to keep the lights on - the price of which was the inevitable austerity that followed - and they are now rehabilitated.

Labour could have sat on the fence and must have known it was going to damage them to oversee that austerity went into government.
And they continue get the flak for what FF did to us.

lawrencesummers

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

OK, call me what you want, I don't care anymore.

So called refugees in DP should fkn stay there imo. The demands to house them elsewhere are ridiculous when you think of our own people. ok I will be called racist.

NO, I am a realist.

No your a racist, and a racist who knows nothing about what you are talking about.

“So called” refugees can be split into two categories.
Legitimate refugees and those making spurious claims.

Legitimate refugees should (in agreed numbers) be allowed to stay, become part of society and start a new life here away from persecution, murder, mutilation or whatever horrible shti they are fleeing. False claims should be processed faster and sent home. We left our country in droves during hard times and settled elsewhere, this opportunity should be afforded to others.

The problem with Direct provision is the people who profit off it are the owners of the centers who get lucrative over priced government contracts, while the legal system grinds it’s gears to process the people in the system.

A lot of people complain about direct provision for a number of reasons, but I’m yet to hear a viable alternative to it.

Funkfield

Mongfinder General wrote: »

We have socialism right now. Tax rate of 40% + usc + prsi. Billions dumped into a health service every year that is not fit for purpose. A massive welfare state. God help us when our economy takes a turn and we have 10 or 15% unemployment. Open borders whereby anybody from the EU's population can relocate here legally - we are not prepared for this and this is borne out in the shortage of housing, transport and healthcare.
Irish people will eventually get fed up with watching their kids getting nowhere in life and if a downturn and election comes at the wrong time there will be a massive shift to the hard right - what form that takes is beyond my ken

The shift to the hard right is coming faster than people think. As Spanish Eyes said above FF and FG are pretty left now. If an actual moderate centrist/right party does not come along soon there will be a hard right reaction and it won't be pretty.

I think a lot of people are unaware just how high our standard of living is in this country. But for the taxes collected etc. We should have better services and infrastructure. Where we are failed e.g. health, education, it really shows.

Real change would be slow but I think it starts with not voting in the same people and parties cyclically ad nauseum.

Don't get me started on the whip system.....

Loafing Oaf

Funkfield wrote: »

The shift to the hard right is coming faster than people think. As Spanish Eyes said above FF and FG are pretty left now. If an actual moderate centrist/right party does not come along soon there will be a hard right reaction and it won't be pretty.

Can you be a bit more specific about 'soon'? If I were to quote this post back at you in five years and there has been no sign of this "shift to the hard right" will you accept you were wrong?

Funkfield

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Can you be a bit more specific about 'soon'? If I were to quote this post back at you in five years and there has been no sign of this "shift to the hard right" will you accept you were wrong?

Totally. But I think it can only really be measured in elections. How else do people show their preference? So 'soon'may still be a little while.
That being said there was some meeting on O'Connell St, Dublin a while back. (Pegida and Identity Ireland in 2016). Ended in failure but they felt they had enough public support and could garner more through launching publicly in Ireland.
I find people in general are more right wing in private.

Thought I'm no prophet or social commentator. I'm just here for the discussion.

Loafing Oaf

Funkfield wrote: »

Totally. But I think it can only really be measured in elections. How else do people show their preference? So 'soon'may still be a little while.

Okay, taking elections as the main metric, well if neither Peter Casey nor Verona Murphy are voted in this time, will you take that as a clear sign that 'soon' is a bit away yet?

Balmed Out

Phoebas wrote: »

Gotta feel sorry for Labour.

FF almost sunk the country, had us begging the IMF and the EU for money to keep the lights on - the price of which was the inevitable austerity that followed - and they are now rehabilitated.

Labour could have sat on the fence and must have known it was going to damage them to oversee that austerity went into government.
And they continue get the flak for what FF did to us.

Completely agree, as minor coalition partners they managed to do well by their vote and manifesto but their voters seem to have expectated results only manageable if they were the sole party in government and the tiger was ongoing.

Ger Roe

I have heard some commentators saying that the country needs a single party majority government to get anything done.

In recent years I have become firmly opposed to giving any single party the freedom to carry on regardless. Look what happened in the past when we handed the keys of the country over to a single pair of hands and just told them to drop them back in the letterbox when they were finished.... the country was rendered bankrupt and corrupt.

The struggle to form a government from multiple interests may not suit our overseers, but I think the compromises that have to be made are less of a risk than allowing power to go to someones head without any consequences.

The issue is not that coalition doesn't work, it's that our elected reps are incompetent, whether they are in on their own, or acting in coalition. Party politics always wins out over the good of the country or the electorate.

Until the performance standard of our elected reps improves, I will continue a tactic of voting to make government formation as difficult and diverse as possible for them. It cant be any worse than going back to a perpetual relay between FG and FF.

Phoebas

markodaly wrote: »

So yes, for the foreseeable future, I cannot see a government without either FG or FF. It's up to the other crowd to sort themselves out.

There was the beginning of some hope when the Social Democrats started up, but their light seems to have faded.

There might have been something started with the Right2Change alliance at the last election, but they didn't want the responsibility of government in the end.

There is a left leaning block out there every bit as popular as FF or FG, but for whatever reasons they aren't willing to risk their individual ideological purities to go into government together.

Funkfield

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Okay, taking elections as the main metric, well if neither Peter Casey nor Verona Murphy are voted in this time, will you take that as a clear sign that 'soon' is a bit away yet?

Sure.

amadangomor

CageWager wrote: »

Most people in this country are never happy. Of course there are problems and hard cases but in general it is a great place to live. Lots of job opportunities and a raft of free public services. People bang on about housing, health etc. but lets keep it in context - people are giving out about how long they have to wait for their free operation or their taxpayer funded social house. Try living in America where it costs you 100k for an emergency operation, 100k for a basic college degree, etc. Better yet, go live in the 2nd or 3rd world where people don’t have a pot to piss in because their corrupt leaders pillage everything they can get their hands on before going into exile (probably in Ireland).

Housing and health are incredibly complex problems to solve but the left wing parties want to make it seem like it could all be solved overnight. It won’t. Irish people want to have their cake and eat it too. They want cheap houses built to a high quality standard but they also want them built within weeks. They want a world class health service without paying high tax. They want to consume massive quantities of water without paying for it. They want climate change while still driving their 2.4 kids around in the 4 litre diesel Range Rover.

Im no fan of FG, but I have no viable alternative. The left are nutters with incredibly destructive and deluded economic policies (remember Syriza?) and FF literally bankrupted this country only a little over 10 years ago. People will come on here and make pithy remarks about FG and get lots of thanks but at the end of the day they are the best option for the middle ground, which is the majority of people in Ireland.

Totally agree- will repeat my post from the main election thread-

We've seen in other countries what can happen if the loonies get their hands on power. This country is far from perfect but it has a functioning economy largely based on a finely balanced niche of being an English speaking country in the EU- low corporation tax model. If people think things are bad now wait until they vote in someone who will **** that up and really see the money tree that keeps the whole show on the road wither and die

For example the greens are great in theory and I like their environmental policies but they have recently voted against Ireland keeping our veto on the EU changing tax policies. As someone that depends on FDI for their job like many do directly and indirectly in the country they can feck right off. For all their flaws - and there are many FG would at least keep the show on the road and make sure the majority of people keep earning a living.

Manach

The irony of the OP calling out FG which has been over double kowtowing to every leftist progressive cause up to seeking to censor opposing viewpoints is rather amusing. Given that economically the centre-to-conservative captialist system is what is keeping the current economy viable seems to have sailed over their heads. "True" socialism has bankrupted formally stable countries like Venezsula whilst state-common and control economies ( China and Russia ) only work with strict controls on public option and raw material.