Is it not time EVERYONE considers not voting for FF or FG in the upcoming election

smurgen · 09-02-2020 7:59pm

christy c wrote: »

What are you waffling about? You mentioned the beginning of the end, not much is going to change if the people you vote in for change just run to opposition.

Are you there Christy?

Eric Cartman · 09-02-2020 8:01pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Someone's rattled.

Thankfully it wasnt the green wave they had hoped for, everyone decided to vote for the no carbon tax increase shinners instead, so I can continue to commute in my range rover, just specially adapted as ill no longer have kneecaps.

smurgen · 09-02-2020 11:38pm

So Varadkar in on the 5th count and Martin on the 6th hahahahaha

Bannasidhe · 09-02-2020 11:49pm

smurgen wrote: »

So Varadkar in on the 5th count and Martin on the 6th hahahahaha

And Regina Doherty is unemployed.

Auguste Comte · 09-02-2020 11:52pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And Regina Doherty is unemployed.

She'll probably have to get a public services card now so she can sign on.

Bannasidhe · 10-02-2020 12:05am

Auguste Comte wrote: »

She'll probably have to get a public services card now so she can sign on.

Hope her drivers licence don't need renewal before she gets her mandatory but not compulsory card.

Idbatterim · 10-02-2020 12:11am

Lads you can’t have usc abolition etc and this world class welfare state , free social housing etc , the insane majority of us will never benefit from! Luxury apartments now thrown out to those on social housing list. It’s very expensive. We aren’t an oil rich gulf state. The workers pay for this and do you get a medical card ? Freee transport ? Free housing? Christmas bonus ? Over two hundred euro a week ? Nah , didn’t think so !

Bannasidhe · 10-02-2020 12:45am

Idbatterim wrote: »

Lads you can’t have usc abolition etc and this world class welfare state , free social housing etc , the insane majority of us will never benefit from! Luxury apartments now thrown out to those on social housing list. It’s very expensive. We aren’t an oil rich gulf state. The workers pay for this and do you get a medical card ? Freee transport ? Free housing? Christmas bonus ? Over two hundred euro a week ? Nah , didn’t think so !

There. is. no. free. housing. and NO-ONE. is. calling for/promising. free. housing.

€700m a year and rising in HAP payments to private landlords is insane too but that's what's been happening.

I agree that the 25 year lease by Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council of an apartment block from a German cuckoo fund is not good value for money.
Even though we don't actually know how much rent tenants will be paying or how much the lease will cost.

I understand that Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council has over 4,500 people on their housing waiting list and that these units are intended to be offered to some of those people and to people already in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council housing that wish to downsize thereby releasing a larger property more suited to a growing family.

Obviously Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council needs to do something to reduce it's housing list...
My questions are - what other properties are available to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council? Are there any other properties?
What happens in 25 years to the tenants when the lease is up?
This seems to be a Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council decision - what does it have to do with who is in government unless whomever is in government is reluctant to enable Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council to build housing units itself (or engage builders to do so on a contract basis) leaving Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council no option but to look to the private market.

FG promised to abolish USC just saying like.

I Am The Law · 13-02-2020 4:55pm

Looks like this thread is needed again,

The arrogance of FF and FG means they won’t accept the peoples vote last Saturday and intend to sulk until they get their own way.

Yet another reason to end the reign of the civil war parties.

Fol20 · 13-02-2020 5:07pm

I Am The Law wrote: »

Looks like this thread is needed again,

The arrogance of FF and FG means they won’t accept the peoples vote last Saturday and intend to sulk until they get their own way.

Yet another reason to end the reign of the civil war parties.

Not sure why you think it’s arrogance or sulking. Ff and fg have their own constituents that voted them in to look after. If they are seen to support mandates by other parties that are very different to their own, then why bother voting for ff/fg in first place and everyone should just vote in sf.

since sf got the popular vote, it’s up to them to try and form a government. If they can’t do that. It’s no one’s fault but their own. There is more than just ff not accepting to be in party with them. I think labour are not keen as well.

Panda Killa · 13-02-2020 5:28pm

I Am The Law wrote: »

Looks like this thread is needed again,

The arrogance of FF and FG means they won’t accept the peoples vote last Saturday and intend to sulk until they get their own way.

Yet another reason to end the reign of the civil war parties.

3/4 of the populace didn't vote for Sinn Féin....this is the problem with the sympathisers and apologists...they only accept a version of democracy that suits them

Sean.3516 · 13-02-2020 5:43pm

I Am The Law wrote: »

Looks like this thread is needed again,

The arrogance of FF and FG means they won’t accept the peoples vote last Saturday and intend to sulk until they get their own way.

Yet another reason to end the reign of the civil war parties.

I’m baffled by this idea that because Sinn Fein have risen from 13% to 24% that the other party leaders are somehow obligated to just “give them a go”

Neither Micheal Martin or Leo Varadkar are obligated to make a compromise they believe to be against the national interest, especially if another option is available.

As a believer in the Edmund Burke line that “a representative owes you not only his industry but his judgement and he betrays you if he sacrifices it to your opinions” it would be irresponsible for Martin to just give Sinn Fein a go if he has fundamental political disagreements with them.

His disagreements with Fine Gael aren’t quite as fundamental and the prospects for a coalition govt. are a lot better.

Also I don’t see Sinn Fein as being fit to go into govt. putting aside their detestable socialism, they had one job. It was to prove that they’ve matured beyond this disgraceful “Ooh Aah up the RA” infantile gob****tery.

Bannasidhe · 13-02-2020 5:44pm

Fol20 wrote: »

Not sure why you think it’s arrogance or sulking. Ff and fg have their own constituents that voted them in to look after. If they are seen to support mandates by other parties that are very different to their own, then why bother voting for ff/fg in first place and everyone should just vote in sf.

since sf got the popular vote, it’s up to them to try and form a government. If they can’t do that. It’s no one’s fault but their own. There is more than just ff not accepting to be in party with them. I think labour are not keen as well.

Why is it up to SF?
Why is it not up to FF who technically have the most seats?
Why is it not up to FG to try and continue the good work they assured us they have been doing?

If they believe their policies are the answer then prove it - get allies on board and form a govt! That goes for all of them equally.

I didn't vote for SF - neither did I vote for FF or FG.
I think that given the number of seats the 3 of them got is close enough they should all be trying to form a govt.

And Labour aren't keen on being in govt at all - possibly as the last time they went in they got decimated in th next election.

Fol20 · 13-02-2020 6:29pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why is it up to SF?
Why is it not up to FF who technically have the most seats?
Why is it not up to FG to try and continue the good work they assured us they have been doing?

If they believe their policies are the answer then prove it - get allies on board and form a govt! That goes for all of them equally.

I didn't vote for SF - neither did I vote for FF or FG.
I think that given the number of seats the 3 of them got is close enough they should all be trying to form a govt.

And Labour aren't keen on being in govt at all - possibly as the last time they went in they got decimated in th next election.

The way the comment was phrased showed signs of bias towards sf. I just wanted to provide a level playing field.

Whomever wants to get in be it sf,ff or fg have to fight and compromise for that position if they want it. No point blaming others. Sf views are extreme so some parties may not join their parade. I’m not a sf support but if I did see my party support them, it would make me question my support.

Similar to this, if I was a sf supporter. I would be rightly angry if they supported ff or fg.

Billcarson · 13-02-2020 6:38pm

Panda Killa wrote: »

3/4 of the populace didn't vote for Sinn Féin....this is the problem with the sympathisers and apologists...they only accept a version of democracy that suits them

Nearly 60% of people didn't vote for either FF or FG .
Just saying

is_that_so · 13-02-2020 6:40pm

Billcarson wrote: »

Nearly 60% of people didn't vote for either FF or FG .
Just saying

More empty stats saying nothing except rebutting someone else's empty stats!

Billcarson · 13-02-2020 6:55pm

is_that_so wrote: »

More empty stats saying nothing except rebutting someone else's empty stats!

Yeh whatever. Well it's not as if FF and FG combined got 80% + of the votes like they used to get back in the day now is it?

is_that_so · 13-02-2020 6:57pm

Billcarson wrote: »

Yeh whatever. Well it's not as if FF and FG got 80% + of the votes like they used to get back in the day now is it?

Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination -Mark Twain

Billcarson · 13-02-2020 6:58pm

Well maybe FF and FG should not have taken more note of the polls then lol

smurgen · 14-02-2020 10:18am

https://www.irishlegal.com/article/government-refuses-again-to-provide-breakdown-of-payments-to-lawyers

Government hiding behind GDPR despite FOI application.not a bit suspicious.

Field east · 14-02-2020 11:55am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why is it up to SF?
Why is it not up to FF who technically have the most seats?
Why is it not up to FG to try and continue the good work they assured us they have been doing?

If they believe their policies are the answer then prove it - get allies on board and form a govt! That goes for all of them equally.

I didn't vote for SF - neither did I vote for FF or FG.
I think that given the number of seats the 3 of them got is close enough they should all be trying to form a govt.

And Labour aren't keen on being in govt at all - possibly as the last time they went in they got decimated in th next election.

As a matter of interest, who did you give your second and third preference to?

Idbatterim · 14-02-2020 12:02pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

There. is. no. free. housing. and NO-ONE. is. calling for/promising. free. housing.

€700m a year and rising in HAP payments to private landlords is insane too but that's what's been happening.

I agree that the 25 year lease by Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council of an apartment block from a German cuckoo fund is not good value for money.
Even though we don't actually know how much rent tenants will be paying or how much the lease will cost.

I understand that Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council has over 4,500 people on their housing waiting list and that these units are intended to be offered to some of those people and to people already in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council housing that wish to downsize thereby releasing a larger property more suited to a growing family.

Obviously Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council needs to do something to reduce it's housing list...
My questions are - what other properties are available to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council? Are there any other properties?
What happens in 25 years to the tenants when the lease is up?
This seems to be a Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council decision - what does it have to do with who is in government unless whomever is in government is reluctant to enable Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council to build housing units itself (or engage builders to do so on a contract basis) leaving Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council no option but to look to the private market.

FG promised to abolish USC just saying like.

I know a lad who has got a one bed apartment in that new block in dundrum and says he pays E50 a week. That would barely cover the fcuking management fee in that block! Those morons in the council, have enough land in the area, what is it doing? sitting idle! central government should take the bull by the horns, they arent allowed to compete with private buyers, that means buying up stock or renting it, the state should be building its own property and increasing supply!

I received a reply from a councillor in the area, when I contacted them about this dundrum farce ( a councillor who I respected up to this point) he said, "we have to house them somewhere" no **** and this farce has gone on years, where they build nothing themselves, or does it take decades for them to achieve this? :rolleyes: Its a slap in the face for a few "early risers" living in that area, living in converted garages! We didnt all have lack of ambition or foresight, to throw our names on the housing list fifteen years ago! But I can tell you what, I would strongly advise anyone, to put their name down on the list now, with the massive lists and the situation they have created, expect the flood gates to now open with luxury apartments being handed out. The are spineless here, they would happily keep the current system, before daring to actually help out taxpayers, with a roof over their head!

Bannasidhe · 14-02-2020 12:02pm

Field east wrote: »

As a matter of interest, who did you give your second and third preference to?

Why?

SF, FF, FG got no preference off me. For the purposes of this discussion who I did vote for is immaterial - but my 2nd and 3rd (parties - the candidates were not elected) are being courted - as is my 1st pref who did get elected.

I voted 1-3 for the 'kingmakers'. :P

Idbatterim · 14-02-2020 12:04pm

I Am The Law wrote: »

Looks like this thread is needed again,

The arrogance of FF and FG means they won’t accept the peoples vote last Saturday and intend to sulk until they get their own way.

Yet another reason to end the reign of the civil war parties.

its a farce, one way or another! The SF vote has done a great service to all in this country. FFG will either massively up their effort (and if things improve quickly) is it acceptable that they took the piss since their foundation, simply because they could?

option 2, and a lot of people feel this way, nothing will change under FFG and they will be obliterated at the next election. A win / win , in a way, HOWEVER many people cannot afford another few likely wasted years, with the axis of failure at the helm

https://www.dlrcoco.ie/en/housing/housing-provision-applicants/housing-allocations

look at this farce, you can earn up 35k and be eligible for social housing, where they will give you an apartment of E1800 a month market rent, no management fee or LPT. That is €2000 a month (throw in management fee and the lpt pittance), the 35k figure, is the point at which you hit the marginal rate, so that apartment, if you are paying over the marginal rate, is €48,000 a year gross, to pay for it. So basically, you can live with no massive debt, stress etc, keep salary at 35k and live a lifestyle, of a single earner, earning in the mid eighty thousands!!! LOL! LOL!

Field east · 14-02-2020 12:08pm

Billcarson wrote: »

Nearly 60% of people didn't vote for either FF or FG .
Just saying

We can now add Labour to the ‘NO CHANGE’ parties/ independents - as per SF and the media in general.. that brings seat numbers to 79. I would expect that a number of independents would be classed by the above as ‘ NO CHANGERS ‘also such as Lowry, two Healy Reas, Naughton, Wexford independent lady - Murphy, Grealish , Ill stop there. We are now up to 85 seats - a majority in my estimation. So how can we say that the people voted for change.
Some board ie might have a shot at converting the above to 1st preference votes

Bannasidhe · 14-02-2020 12:14pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I know a lad who has got a one bed apartment in that new block in dundrum and says he pays E50 a week. That would barely cover the fcuking management fee in that block! Those morons in the council, have enough land in the area, what is it doing? sitting idle! central government should take the bull by the horns, they arent allowed to compete with private buyers, that means buying up stock or renting it, the state should be building its own property and increasing supply!

I received a reply from a councillor in the area, when I contacted them about this dundrum farce ( a councillor who I respected up to this point) he said, "we have to house them somewhere" no **** and this farce has gone on years, where they build nothing themselves, or does it take decades for them to achieve this? :rolleyes: Its a slap in the face for a few "early risers" living in that area, living in converted garages! We didnt all have lack of ambition or foresight, to throw our names on the housing list fifteen years ago! But I can tell you what, I would strongly advise anyone, to put their name down on the list now, with the massive lists and the situation they have created, expect the flood gates to now open with luxury apartments being handed out. The are spineless here, they would happily keep the current system, before daring to actually help out taxpayers, with a roof over their head!

The Councillor was correct - they do have to house them somewhere. The issue is where?

You and I seem to be in broad agreement that government/local authorities shouldn't be interfering in the private housing market either by subsiding rents via HAP or buying/leasing thereby competing against first time buyers and pushing up prices.
We both think the State/LAs should be building and supplying affordable housing to those on low incomes.

The thing is - this lad might be paying €50 a week and you think that's outrageous given the estimated cost the council are paying. BUT he is paying rent. His rent is being subsidised- exactly the same as the rent of people on HAP. If he was homeless the State would be paying out more to a B&b/Hotel.

The homeless aren't the ones who caused the lack of housing - they are the ones who literally lack housing. And the lack of affordable accomodation is down to government policies going back decades.

Council houses were sold and not replaced.
Bedsits were made illegal.

Where did the geniuses who came up with these policies think people on low incomes were going to find housing in the future?

Idbatterim · 14-02-2020 12:17pm

The homeless aren't the ones who caused the lack of housing - they are the ones who literally lack housing. And the lack of affordable accomodation is down to government policies going back decades.

Council houses were sold and not replaced.
Bedsits were made illegal.

Where did the geniuses who came up with these policies think people on low incomes were going to find housing in the future?

all of this is true and I agree. We are in broad agreement, here is what I have a big issue with 1. the rents they pay (totally unacceptable contribution towards the high cost of the accomodaiton, and this massively hinders how much more social and affordable housing they can provide) There is no middle ground here, you have the lottery ticket of social housing or hap or you are still poor and FCUKED with outrageous market rents.

of course they have to house them, but what have they been doing the last few years? Sitting around drinking tea and eating biscuits, this situation has been a farce for years and towards the end of 2019, the best they can come up with, is "they have to be housed somewhere" what the hell are those incompetent fools being paid to do?

You hit the nail on the head there with the bedsits, absolute MORONS, some possibly well intentioned, but still MORONS!

Knowing the system here, how useless it is and how useless those operating it are... Tell them going forward, they are not leasing or buying private property. They develop their own! That is the only way I can see us being ripped off, addressed. So they provide housing in a criminally expensive way and then those that get it, get if for next to nothing. This kind of BS, would never be tolerated outside of this banana republic!

I think a new national housing agency should be formed, transfer everything over to it, all exisiting stock, the management etc. The coucils couldnt run a corner shop. Let them build their own accomodation for people, at appropriate rents and they collect the rent, none of this "cant be arsed paying" stuff...

Fol20 · 14-02-2020 12:35pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

all of this is true and I agree. We are in broad agreement, here is what I have a big issue with 1. the rents they pay (totally unacceptable contribution towards the high cost of the accomodaiton, and this massively hinders how much more social and affordable housing they can provide) There is no middle ground here, you have the lottery ticket of social housing or hap or you are still poor and FCUKED with outrageous market rents.

of course they have to house them, but what have they been doing the last few years? Sitting around drinking tea and eating biscuits, this situation has been a farce for years and towards the end of 2019, the best they can come up with, is "they have to be housed somewhere" what the hell are those incompetent fools being paid to do?

You hit the nail on the head there with the bedsits, absolute MORONS, some possibly well intentioned, but still MORONS!

Knowing the system here, how useless it is and how useless those operating it are... Tell them going forward, they are not leasing or buying private property. They develop their own! That is the only way I can see us being ripped off, addressed. So they provide housing in a criminally expensive way and then those that get it, get if for next to nothing. This kind of BS, would never be tolerated outside of this banana republic!

I think a new national housing agency should be formed, transfer everything over to it, all exisiting stock, the management etc. The coucils couldnt run a corner shop. Let them build their own accomodation for people, at appropriate rents and they collect the rent, none of this "cant be arsed paying" stuff...

There are reasons around leasing and hap vs building. The former go into current expenses on their budget while the latter would come under capital. Our government Cannot go over a certain amount of capital expense as they would be in breach of their bailout. Yes it might sound trivial but from an accounting perspective. This spending difference Is major.

Bannasidhe · 14-02-2020 12:39pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

all of this is true and I agree. We are in broad agreement, here is what I have a big issue with 1. the rents they pay (totally unacceptable contribution towards the high cost of the accomodaiton, and this massively hinders how much more social and affordable housing they can provide) There is no middle ground here, you have the lottery ticket of social housing or hap or you are still poor and FCUKED with outrageous market rents.

You hit the nail on the head there with the bedsits, absolute MORONS, some possibly well intentioned, but still MORONS!

Knowin the system here, how useless it is and how useless those operating it are... Tell them going forward, they are not leasing or buying private property. They develop their own! That is the only way I can see us being ripped off, addressed. So they provide housing in a criminally expenseive way and then those that get it, get if for next to nothing. This kind of BS, would never be tolerated outside of this banana republic!

As far as I know there is some formula that determines how much rent a person in LA housing pays - as there is for someone receiving HAP.
Again the person being subsidised doesn't make the rules, they pay the proportion of their income deemed affordable. It would be pointless housing people then charging them more than they can afford so they end up homeless again.

The issue all comes down to the lack of affordable, secure, accomodation. Non- homeowners regardless of income are largely at the mercy of the private market.
This is the result of successive FF and FG housing policies.
They have put people on SW in competition with earners on low incomes and allowed market forces to determine rent with some token tinkering around the edges with rent pressure zone etc.
The fact remains - rents where employment is available are too high.

It's all very well saying the 'unemployed' should be housed where housing is cheap (Leitrim usually is the place suggested) but the reason housing is cheap is due to lack of jobs - do we therefore make Leitrim (for example) a ghetto of unemployed people in cheap housing?

That still won't 'solve' the problem of where those on low incomes live?
Do people want the childcare workers minding their kids to have a commute of a few hours into Dublin and then care for little Fiachra all day while Mammy and Daddy work their well paid jobs in finance and IT?
Is it ok if the Carer for Mummy in the Nursing Home in Foxrock is exhausted because she drives from Roscommon every morning?

Cities need people to do the minimum wage jobs. Those people need to live somewhere they can afford to get to work from. The Barista is the tres trendy bijou coffee shop that sells divine gluten free crostini cannot be expected to drive a few hours into work, pay for city centre parking, tolls etc on a salary of just over €10 ph. It's not feasible.

Decent and affordable public transport would help too...

Idbatterim · 14-02-2020 12:39pm

Fol20 wrote: »

There are reasons around leasing and hap vs building. The former go into current expenses on their budget while the latter would come under capital. Our government Cannot go over a certain amount of capital expense as they would be in breach of their bailout. Yes it might sound trivial but from an accounting perspective. This spending difference Is major.

I get that, I totally disagree with our system. and one way around the lack of borrowing ability? let those in social housing, pay more and we can build more housing without borrowing ... there should be a council tax too, to replace LPT!

Is it not time EVERYONE considers not voting for FF or FG in the upcoming election

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