Is it not time EVERYONE considers not voting for FF or FG in the upcoming election

Calhoun

amadangomor wrote: »

Totally agree- will repeat my post from the main election thread-

We've seen in other countries what can happen if the loonies get their hands on power. This country is far from perfect but it has a functioning economy largely based on a finely balanced niche of being an English speaking country in the EU- low corporation tax model. If people think things are bad now wait until they vote in someone who will **** that up and really see the money tree that keeps the whole show on the road wither and die

For example the greens are great in theory and I like their environmental policies but they have recently voted against Ireland keeping our veto on the EU changing tax policies. As someone that depends on FDI for their job like many do directly and indirectly in the country they can feck right off. For all their flaws - and there are many FG would at least keep the show on the road and make sure the majority of people keep earning a living.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/green-party-meps-back-proposal-to-remove-irelands-eu-tax-veto-38805187.html

This one seemed to have slipped under the radar I wonder if will get more press attention with the election underway or will they be given a pass.

James Brown

Phoebas wrote: »

Gotta feel sorry for Labour.

FF almost sunk the country, had us begging the IMF and the EU for money to keep the lights on - the price of which was the inevitable austerity that followed - and they are now rehabilitated.

Labour could have sat on the fence and must have known it was going to damage them to oversee that austerity went into government.
And they continue get the flak for what FF did to us.

We'd expected better from Labour. FF are no surprise. And now we know FG haven't changed since before the crisis.

FG have brought FF back from the bottom. Put them in the top two far quicker than would have happened. And here we are weighing up two waster parties only out for them and theirs once again.

efanton

Manach wrote: »

The irony of the OP calling out FG which has been over double kowtowing to every leftist progressive cause up to seeking to censor opposing viewpoints is rather amusing. Given that economically the centre-to-conservative captialist system is what is keeping the current economy viable seems to have sailed over their heads. "True" socialism has bankrupted formally stable countries like Venezsula whilst state-common and control economies ( China and Russia ) only work with strict controls on public option and raw material.

Would you like to explain that again in English?

The irony of the OP calling out FG which has been over double kowtowing to every leftist progressive cause up to seeking to censor opposing viewpoints is rather amusing.

^^^Try explaining that again.

martingriff

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Okay, taking elections as the main metric, well if neither Peter Casey nor Verona Murphy are voted in this time, will you take that as a clear sign that 'soon' is a bit away yet?

You call Veronica Murphy and Casey hard right.

Loafing Oaf

martingriff wrote: »

You call Veronica Murphy and Casey hard right.

Nope, but they're trying to play to that gallery, in the hope that it actually exists in a significant way in Ireland...

I'd be tempted to give SF a lash, to be honest. See if they can get their magic money tree together and fix all our woes.


I've gotten fed up with FG because of Leo. I actually didn't mind Enda, at least he was a person. Leo is just soundbites (and blatantly so) and really gives off a 'couldn't care less' vibe about pretty much every issue that approaches him.

Funkfield

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Leo is just soundbites (and blatantly so) and really gives off a 'couldn't care less' vibe about pretty much every issue that approaches him.

Exactly. It's like having a meme as Taioseach.

martingriff

martingriff wrote: »

You call Veronica Murphy and Casey hard right.

But I would not say if these 2 get voted in as they are independents. If a party starts getting traction then yes but not before then. Paul Murphys party has only got so far and then they stalled

RandomName2

efanton wrote: »

We vote FF in, they make a balls up, then we vote FG in and they make another balls up, but by then we are told to forgive FF for their mistakes and the cycle repeats and repeats.

Look you have to be realistic.

FF and FG are going to be the two largest parties, virtually guaranteed.

Then you have to say 'who are they going to go into coalition with'. They are not going to go into coalition with either themselves or SF.

SF aren't going to be big enough to form a government (either with hard left or hard right parties). If they hold the balance of power again things are going to be a mess.

If I saw a party worth voting for I would give them a vote. As I don't think that that's going to happen, at least I want a semi-sane, stable government, which is why I'll vote for either FF or FG (whichever is leading in the polls). It's frustrating, but that's life.

tdf7187

RandomName2 wrote: »

Look you have to be realistic.

FF and FG are going to be the two largest parties, virtually guaranteed.

Then you have to say 'who are they going to go into coalition with'. They are not going to go into coalition with either themselves or SF.

SF aren't going to be big enough to form a government (either with hard left or hard right parties). If they hold the balance of power again things are going to be a mess.

If I saw a party worth voting for I would give them a vote. As I don't think that that's going to happen, at least I want a semi-sane, stable government, which is why I'll vote for either FF or FG (whichever is leading in the polls). It's frustrating, but that's life.

It's interesting that you think that we currently have a 'semi-sane, stable' government. I see out-of-control corruption with a thinly disguised veneer of civility.

James Brown

RandomName2 wrote: »

Look you have to be realistic.

FF and FG are going to be the two largest parties, virtually guaranteed.

Then you have to say 'who are they going to go into coalition with'. They are not going to go into coalition with either themselves or SF.

SF aren't going to be big enough to form a government (either with hard left or hard right parties). If they hold the balance of power again things are going to be a mess.

If I saw a party worth voting for I would give them a vote. As I don't think that that's going to happen, at least I want a semi-sane, stable government, which is why I'll vote for either FF or FG (whichever is leading in the polls). It's frustrating, but that's life.

I say vote for who is the better party, politician.
Just voting for people because they'll likely win is one of the reasons FG and FF are almost untouchable. If enough people take a chance it could free us.

FG are arrogant and I can see why but it's not a good quality. Also record breaking crises can't be dismissed with 'but at least you know what you're getting'. Yes worsening crises.

CageWager

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've gotten fed up with FG because of Leo. I actually didn't mind Enda, at least he was a person. Leo is just soundbites (and blatantly so) and really gives off a 'couldn't care less' vibe about pretty much every issue that approaches him.

Agree about Leo. All fur coat and no knickers. In an ideal world I’d love to see a FG led government with Coveney as Taoiseach minus the dross (Eoghan Murphy, Mary Mitchell O’Connor, Regina Doherty, etc.).

efanton

RandomName2 wrote: »

Look you have to be realistic.

FF and FG are going to be the two largest parties, virtually guaranteed.

Then you have to say 'who are they going to go into coalition with'. They are not going to go into coalition with either themselves or SF.

SF aren't going to be big enough to form a government (either with hard left or hard right parties). If they hold the balance of power again things are going to be a mess.

If I saw a party worth voting for I would give them a vote. As I don't think that that's going to happen, at least I want a semi-sane, stable government, which is why I'll vote for either FF or FG (whichever is leading in the polls). It's frustrating, but that's life.

All you have said is true.

But here's the problem as I see it. In ten years time we will be exactly the same place if we are lucky, the same two parties and the same electorate voting for those same two parties because voters seem to think nothing will ever change. If voters are not prepared to simply withdraw their vote as a show of protest to those parties or individual TD's that obviously have failed then there will never be an alternative.

I dont think anyone can claim that any government or party has delivered the program they campaigned and got elected on in the last 20 years, for the most part they haven't even come close.

Until enough people are prepared to refuse to vote for failures, there will never be any change. If enough Failed TD's lost there seats maybe FF FG (and for that matter any party) would be far more selective as to who they put forward and who they selected for ministerial posts and be more willing to enforce some sort of meaningful standards and actually learn the lesson that the program they get elected on has to be delivered and is not just window dressing for an election.

I dont think anyone could hand on heart agree that Zappone, Ross, Eoghan Murphy or Simon Harris have actually got a grip on their departments, delivered what they have promised or shown that they have any competence at all in their respective positions. If we had just had a FF government no doubt there would be four or five of them that would be equally incompetent.
But this will continue, government after government, while the major parties know they can act with impunity as far as the electorate goes. The moment the penny drops that TD's or ministers that dont deliver will guarantee significant lost votes to a party things would change dramatically.

If there were another world economic crash, which isnt totally unrealistic to consider, in the next ten years God help us. We are hardly in the position to pay the astronomical debts this country already has thanks to a bailout that was ill considered and decided upon by a very few (certainly not an entire government, party or the Dail). It was the incompetence of individual ministers and Taoiseach's that predominantly cause the mess this country is in, I dont think it could be blamed specifically on one particular governments policies although they might have been a contributing factor

Even if people just refused to vote for individuals that have made a complete balls up, but FF and FG remained in place as the two strongest parties they would be in a better place, and the country would be better for it.
But no, people will vote for a party despite their local TD being a walking catastrophe, instead of being brave enough to give the 1st preference vote to someone else completely and maybe a transfer to the party instead. That message would be heard loud and clear, and personally I believe that's the only way things would change for the better.

Calhoun

Problem with all that is we have seen a glimpse of others in government and what did they do when they go in power? Not what they said when out canvassing people.

People aren't stupid this isn't a eureka moment you have had that they haven't. The voting is for which one of the mess we have will least impact on their lives. Adding on to this allot if not most of the voting in Ireland is based on local issues, look at the likes of the healy-raes, or Lowry ect and they still get back in.

efanton

Calhoun wrote: »

Problem with all that is we have seen a glimpse of others in government and what did they do when they go in power? Not what they said when out canvassing people.

People aren't stupid this isn't a eureka moment you have had that they haven't. The voting is for which one of the mess we have will least impact on their lives. Adding on to this allot if not most of the voting in Ireland is based on local issues, look at the likes of the healy-raes, or Lowry ect and they still get back in.

No I am not naive. I know I have not come up with a unique idea. Nothing is going to change until enough people decide it has to change and actually do something about it. It really would not take a lot, a few thousand in any constituencies would swing a vote totally. In most constituencies you might be talking only hundreds.


We see these new parties being invented every election, it's them who are totally naive. They are never going to get close to being in a position to form a government even as a junior partner. They would be far more effective throwing their weight behind an existing smaller party if they really wanted a change of government rather than diluting the opposition vote.

So really it does come down on us as individual voters. If a handful did it nothing would change but if a moderate but still significant number of voters did it things would start changing rapidly. It might take an election or two to actually produce results, but we could be fairly certain that when the tally men see their parties votes being affected action would be taken even if it was only for selfish reasons.
All it would take is to refuse to give a 1st preference to those individual TD's and ministers that have failed, but if people wished they could instead give a transfer if they were that intent in supporting a party to some degree

Calhoun

As i said its down to who people think they will do better under, new parties aren't necessarily a bad idea but they have to resonate with voters. Allot of the existing opposition don't have a clear and coherent message but what is getting through always isn't something i would vote for.

As always in Irish politics most of the time the opposition over commit and under deliver. Look at the likes of labour, the every hurt helps type tesco ad came back to bite them in the arse.

markodaly

It is down to the alternatives to show up and be counted and act reasonably and responsibly.
The main reason FF are back is due to the incompetence of the alternatives, outside of government.

Fann Linn

markodaly wrote: »

It is down to the alternatives to show up and be counted and act reasonably and responsibly.
The main reason FF are back is due to the incompetence of the alternatives, outside of government.

No. The incompetence and arrogance of FG is at fault here. EG Scrapping USC, looking after people who get up early in the morning etc etc,

markodaly

Fann Linn wrote: »

No. The incompetence and arrogance of FG is at fault here. EG Scrapping USC, looking after people who get up early in the morning etc etc,

I mentioned already.

FG is at fault for losing FG votes, but they cannot be blamed when that vote goes to FF. That vote had the option of going to many other places. If that vote doesn't go to Labour, SD, PBP, SF, etc... then blame those parties for not grabbing that vote. It is quite simple.

Fann Linn

markodaly wrote: »

I mentioned already.

FG is at fault for losing FG votes, but they cannot be blamed when that vote goes to FF. That vote had the option of going to many other places. If that vote doesn't go to Labour, SD, PBP, SF, etc... then blame those parties for not grabbing that vote. It is quite simple.

Sorry didn't see your earlier post but you're right. I used to be a card carrying member of the LP up until the time of Gilmore.
Now I revel in their demise.

Ashleigh1986

Politics is all about THE PARTY .
It's all about getting elected .
It's all about getting into government .... FOR THE PARTY .
Look at " the greens " in the past .
Look at " labour " in the past .
Both had chances to make real change in Irish politics , but their leaders in each party let the grassroots down big time .
This election will be a disaster for fianna Gael and especially varadkar .
Fianna Fáil voters ( they haven't gone away ) will come out in force .
Sinn Fein and labour will have a disastrous election .
It will be the end of Mary Lou as leader .

pwurple

Fann Linn wrote: »

No. The incompetence and arrogance of FG is at fault here. EG Scrapping USC, looking after people who get up early in the morning etc etc,

Has USC been scrapped? I need a refund.

Why stop at FF/FG? They're all as bad as each other as far as I can see. Everyone is aware of the country's problems yet everyone is afraid to discuss both the cause of the problem and the solution needed. I cant even discuss it here because I'll be called a racist. My problem is not which party will I vote for, its will I vote at all.

Eric Cartman

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Okay, taking elections as the main metric, well if neither Peter Casey nor Verona Murphy are voted in this time, will you take that as a clear sign that 'soon' is a bit away yet?

And if they both get elected will you take it as a sign that Ireland has an apetite for moderate right wing views

Sleeper12

efanton wrote:

As stated at the very top, Im not advocating any particular party, I'm hoping that people will simply post their views in a non party way (or as near as you can get on a political forum). Keep it civilised and as non party and non-partisan as possible. Is there a mood there for significant change, or are we doomed to what essentially is a two part state with very little difference between them both in policy and standards?

I see many, many Facebook posts begging me/you not to vote for the main parties. Labour & SF are included as main parties. Vote only independent candidates.

The message preached is that all party candidates are bad & all independent candidates are good. Blindly voting for independent candidates just because they are independent is no different to voting for FF or FG candidates just because they belong to the party.

I don't understand this way of thinking. Life isn't as black and white as this. There are good independent & good party candidates.

Fann Linn

pwurple wrote: »

Has USC been scrapped? I need a refund.

No. But FG said they would.

Idbatterim

Fann Linn wrote: »

No. But FG said they would.

Health and housing are black holes now. Getting rid of usc will be problematic. Apply a one percent lpt, usc can be scrapped

Eric Cartman

Fann Linn wrote: »

No. But FG said they would.

They had a decade to cut taxes and didnt, wont trust them to cut taxes at all, theyll probably promise it this time and then spend alltheir time legalising beastiality or giving subsidies to drag queens or whatever new social issue the twitter left would clap for.

MadYaker

No matter who gets in they can’t realistically cut taxes much. We’re still paying for the crash and we need to maintain a wide tax base in case another crash happens. USC is going nowhere. The gov will continue to take half of my salary for the foreseeable future I think.

Eric Cartman

MadYaker wrote: »

No matter who gets in they can’t realistically cut taxes much. We’re still paying for the crash and we need to maintain a wide tax base in case another crash happens. USC is going nowhere. The gov will continue to take half of my salary for the foreseeable future I think.

We dont have a wide tax base, almost 1 million people here dont pay income tax