Is it not time EVERYONE considers not voting for FF or FG in the upcoming election

Loafing Oaf

Eric Cartman wrote: »

And if they both get elected will you take it as a sign that Ireland has an apetite for moderate right wing views

Not definitive proof that such an appetite exists countrywide but, yes, a sign...

efanton

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I see many, many Facebook posts begging me/you not to vote for the main parties. Labour & SF are included as main parties. Vote only independent candidates.

The message preached is that all party candidates are bad & all independent candidates are good. Blindly voting for independent candidates just because they are independent is no different to voting for FF or FG candidates just because they belong to the party.

I don't understand this way of thinking. Life isn't as black and white as this. There are good independent & good party candidates.

In your first sentence you disagree with me and you last you agree, make up your mind.

I never said dont vote for the main parties, I suggested we dont vote for parties that fail in government or more specifically we dont vote for those individual TD's that fail, and that should be enough for parties to take action to weed out those that fail. But if we vote for a local candidate simply because he/she is a member of a particular party nothing ever will change.

I totally agree there's good and bad everywhere, but until we the electorate the actually do something about it the bad will just keep coming back to cause even more harm. You cant blame politicians for using voter apathy to their advantage.

James Brown

markodaly wrote: »

It is down to the alternatives to show up and be counted and act reasonably and responsibly.
The main reason FF are back is due to the incompetence of the alternatives, outside of government.

It's more to do with Varadjar, Harris, Murphy and Flanagan and FG power sharing with FF after telling us how toxic they were. Thanks to FG when MM sneezed it made the papers so they got a lot of coverage instead of wallowing in the bottom a little longer.

FG only get in when FF screw up. FG are matching their sh*te reputation so it's time to go. The majority of floaters go between the two that's the curse and also how FF and FG like it.

Maybe if FF weren't in this deal and FG weren't so bad we might see SF, SD, others raise their profile enough but FG want FF and nobody else getting a look in.
It's best of a bad lot and it looks like that's FF at the moment and thats in no small part thanks to FG.

efanton

Eric Cartman wrote: »

We dont have a wide tax base, almost 1 million people here dont pay income tax

Yes this country does have pensioners, children, disabled and unemployed (but our unemployment rate is far less than most countries). Even these pay considerable amounts of taxes in VAT, levies, LPT, fuel taxes and other stealth charges in proportion to what they receive.

I dont thinks its width of the tax band thats the problem. I think it is that certain groups pay a disproportionate amount of tax. But the only way to fix that is to tax the extremely wealthy more (single income of €120k for arguments sake) so that the stress is removed from the middle. You cant tax the pensioners, disabled, children or the unemployed any more unless you are prepared that their benefits increase somehow, which defeats the whole point.


The problem is far too many people buy into this madness that claims if you tax the extremely wealthy that the jobs will disappear. This logic is just lunacy but suits the wealthier and interested parties to propagate. Personal taxes on income are not and never will be taxes on business. These people will never leave while there is significant profit to be made, and rip off Ireland is still doing very nicely indeed. The worst that will happen is that they will adjust their business costs to absorb their personal loss if they have the power to do so, and if they don't then they certainly don't have the power to shut shop and relocate to another country.

Microsoft, Apple, Intel or any of the other multinationals will not leave the country because any change in income tax simply does not affect them. If any party advocated raising our corporation tax then it would be a completely different matter, but thankfully all major parties (FG, FF, SF, LAB, SD) are in agreement that our corporation tax is set at the right level.

The biggest problem this country has is that we have a civil service, state agencies and other bodies that simply do not get best value for money. They are spending state money, which equates to them as someone else's money, so they simply do not care. Our competitive tendering is a joke, if every company overcharges (as they do) when tendering there will never be good value. Also its very apparent that our biggest services and agencies are extremely lazy when it comes to tendering. We have a children's hospital tendered at a certain price and suddenly its now nearly double. No penalty clauses, no fixed price tendering, no time limits, no legal stipulation, in fact nothing that a typical private sector corporation or business would ensure were in place before they put pen to contract. personally I would like to see a system similar to a dutch auction put in place where the state offers a price and the first business that accepts that price (as long as all conditions of the tender are met), gets the contract. If no provider accepts then simply go another round.

We also have absolutely no incentive whatsoever for these agencies to save money. If they save 50 million this year, the result is next years budget is reduced by that amount. Having worked for a company that did a lot of work for state bodies and county councils I can tell you that the sales guys cleaned up every year simply calling them a few weeks before their financial year was up, as the managers of these agencies were keen to ensure their entire budget was used and any surplus spent.

Phoebas

efanton wrote: »

Yes this country does have pensioners, children, disabled and unemployed (but our unemployment rate is far less than most countries).

You've completely glossed over the fact that we have a large proportion of workers who pay no income tax at all.

The 1m people EC referred to are not pensioners, children and unemployed, but working people.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/more-than-1-million-workers-will-not-pay-income-tax-this-year-1.3544848%3fmode=amp

Dravokivich

Phoebas wrote: »

You've completely glossed over the fact that we have a large proportion of workers who pay no income tax at all.

The 1m people EC referred to are not pensioners, children and unemployed, but working people.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/more-than-1-million-workers-will-not-pay-income-tax-this-year-1.3544848%3fmode=amp

So?

I probably pay more on VAT over the year, than I would on income tax.

Eric Cartman

efanton wrote: »

Yes this country does have pensioners, children, disabled and unemployed (but our unemployment rate is far less than most countries). Even these pay considerable amounts of taxes in VAT, levies, LPT, fuel taxes and other stealth charges in proportion to what they receive.

I dont thinks its width of the tax band thats the problem. I think it is that certain groups pay a disproportionate amount of tax. But the only way to fix that is to tax the extremely wealthy more (single income of €120k for arguments sake) so that the stress is removed from the middle. You cant tax the pensioners, disabled, children or the unemployed any more unless you are prepared that their benefits increase somehow, which defeats the whole point.


The problem is far too many people buy into this madness that claims if you tax the extremely wealthy that the jobs will disappear. This logic is just lunacy but suits the wealthier and interested parties to propagate. Personal taxes on income are not and never will be taxes on business. These people will never leave while there is significant profit to be made, and rip off Ireland is still doing very nicely indeed. The worst that will happen is that they will adjust their business costs to absorb their personal loss if they have the power to do so, and if they don't then they certainly don't have the power to shut shop and relocate to another country.

Microsoft, Apple, Intel or any of the other multinationals will not leave the country because any change in income tax simply does not affect them. If any party advocated raising our corporation tax then it would be a completely different matter, but thankfully all major parties (FG, FF, SF, LAB, SD) are in agreement that our corporation tax is set at the right level.

The biggest problem this country has is that we have a civil service, state agencies and other bodies that simply do not get best value for money. They are spending state money, which equates to them as someone else's money, so they simply do not care. Our competitive tendering is a joke, if every company overcharges (as they do) when tendering there will never be good value. Also its very apparent that our biggest services and agencies are extremely lazy when it comes to tendering. We have a children's hospital tendered at a certain price and suddenly its now nearly double. No penalty clauses, no fixed price tendering, no time limits, no legal stipulation, in fact nothing that a typical private sector corporation or business would ensure were in place before they put pen to contract. personally I would like to see a system similar to a dutch auction put in place where the state offers a price and the first business that accepts that price (as long as all conditions of the tender are met), gets the contract. If no provider accepts then simply go another round.

We also have absolutely no incentive whatsoever for these agencies to save money. If they save 50 million this year, the result is next years budget is reduced by that amount. Having worked for a company that did a lot of work for state bodies and county councils I can tell you that the sales guys cleaned up every year simply calling them a few weeks before their financial year was up, as the managers of these agencies were keen to ensure their entire budget was used and any surplus spent.

120k a year .... extremely wealthy... i just dont even know where to start.

This BuT ThEy PaY VaT aNd ExCiSe crap needs to die a death, when people say taxpayers they mean income tax and nothing else. Most other taxes are pissing into the wind in comparison.

Its the people in the 33-150k a year bracket that are really squeezed here, those are the ones we need to help. The higher tax rate which is an abomination should be reduced to a marginal 40% including USC if not abolished , it should kick in at 100-150k and everyone below that from minimum wage up should be on 20% with the current tax credits left in place. That would make a much fairer playing field

Gunmonkey

Im not to vote for FG/FF then? Ok so help me out here:

Deputy Marcella Corcoran-Kennedy (Fine Gael)
Deputy Charlie Flanagan (Fine Gael)
Deputy Barry Cowen (Fianna Fáil)
Deputy Sean Fleming (Fianna Fáil)
Cllr. Peter Ormond (Fianna Fáil)
Pauline Flanagan (Fianna Fáil)
Deputy Brian Stanley (Sinn Féin)
Senator Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
Stephen Tynan (People Before Profit)
Cllr. Ken Smollen (Irish Democratic Party)
John Daly (National Party)
Deputy Carol Nolan (Independent)
Cllr. John Leahy (Independent)

This is the lineup here in Laois/Offaly. Cutting out FG/FF leaves me 7 candidates to give 5 votes. And running through some of the wonderful options open to me:

Smollen is the sole IDP candidate nationwide, so essentially an Ind looking to bring in public votes on almost every action the Gov takes, which will never happen and slow the country to a crawl.
National Party is a beautiful group of anti-immigration, anti-abortion, United Ireland, Eurosceptic/Irexiters, anti-gay marriage (according to their leader, they dont hate the gays but think them marrying is "unnatural and wrong") so....yeah....wonderful people there!
PBP would just drive this country into the ground, ignotring Venezuela or other failed socialist countries and having not used "the right kind of socialism" or "it will work this time, lads.....honest!"
Same for Sinn Fein, but probably at a slower speed, theres been enough people online tearing their policies to bother listing here.
Nolan is former SF after she voted against the party in opposition to abortions. Cant find any policy from her apart from "yay country life" so mainly local parish pump stuff.
Leahy is former Renua and seems the same (rabble rabble country values rabble rabble hands off me turf!)

So who the **** am I to vote for then?

efanton

Phoebas wrote: »

You've completely glossed over the fact that we have a large proportion of workers who pay no income tax at all.

The 1m people EC referred to are not pensioners, children and unemployed, but working people.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/more-than-1-million-workers-will-not-pay-income-tax-this-year-1.3544848%3fmode=amp

Only people earning up to €16,501 per year pay no income tax whatsoever

if someone only earns €16,501 a year are they in a position to pay income tax?
according to the PWC tax calculator they earn
Monthly disposable income €1,363
Weekly disposable income €314

Subtract rent for a very modest single room in a shared house which will vary from anywhere between €100 and €175 per week depending on what part of the country you are living in and that immediately halves the disposable income straight away in many cases. I would imagine that this cost might be slightly more if living in Dublin.
Then include transport costs (€180.00 per month in Dublin, with a leap card in Cork fares are nearly €2 each way so a minimum of €80 a month if bus is only used for getting to work but this is unrealistic the card will also be used for shopping and social trips so lets be reasonable can call that closer to €100 per month) , groceries, and other living expenses and that leaves very little indeed as actual disposable income for 'luxuries' such as a night out in a pub, going to the cinema or a meal with friends in a restaurant once a week. In fact the majority of these people would be better of on the dole but it is good to see that they prefer to work.

The minute income tax is demanded from these very low income workers a large number will revert back to living on the dole, which would totally defeat the purpose of applying income tax in the first place.

So are you really trying to suggest they are even capable of also paying income tax?
Do you actually want to see you own income tax increase to cover the cost of those that no longer work because it is no longer a viable option for these people.

Geuze

efanton wrote: »

Lets be honest the country is in a total shambles.
We have 'services' that hardly merit the term. the health service, education, housing, special needs, childcare all far below the standard of what any developed country should expect.

The starting point of your statement is false.

The country is not a "total shambles"

Geuze

MadYaker wrote: »

The gov will continue to take half of my salary for the foreseeable future I think.

Nobody in Ireland pays 50% effective income tax rate.

Winning_Stroke

So I've the choice of:

FF/FG
Far left nutjobs
Green loons
Incompetent independents


Great options.

Edgware

Gunmonkey wrote: »

Im not to vote for FG/FF then? Ok so help me out here:



This is the lineup here in Laois/Offaly. Cutting out FG/FF leaves me 7 candidates to give 5 votes. And running through some of the wonderful options open to me:

Smollen is the sole IDP candidate nationwide, so essentially an Ind looking to bring in public votes on almost every action the Gov takes, which will never happen and slow the country to a crawl.
National Party is a beautiful group of anti-immigration, anti-abortion, United Ireland, Eurosceptic/Irexiters, anti-gay marriage (according to their leader, they dont hate the gays but think them marrying is "unnatural and wrong") so....yeah....wonderful people there!
PBP would just drive this country into the ground, ignotring Venezuela or other failed socialist countries and having not used "the right kind of socialism" or "it will work this time, lads.....honest!"
Same for Sinn Fein, but probably at a slower speed, theres been enough people online tearing their policies to bother listing here.
Nolan is former SF after she voted against the party in opposition to abortions. Cant find any policy from her apart from "yay country life" so mainly local parish pump stuff.
Leahy is former Renua and seems the same (rabble rabble country values rabble rabble hands off me turf!)

So who the **** am I to vote for then?

You are being very hard on PBP. They have developed an excellent magic beans policy to cover expenditure

galwayllm

FF & FG will be the very very last parties I'd ever vote for ..

They need to be gone... They'll make us a failed state..

Billcarson

Thank God I dont suffer from Stockholm syndrome . My deepest sympathies to those that do .

Winning_Stroke

galwayllm wrote: »

FF & FG will be the very very last parties I'd ever vote for ..

They need to be gone... They'll make us a failed state..

Can we stop with all the hyperbole. Ireland is one of the best countries in the world to live in. It's not perfect, there's plenty of issues but bringing in American style hyper-partisan nonsense won't end well for anyone.

suicide_circus

efanton wrote: »

Only people earning up to €16,501 per year pay no income tax whatsoever

if someone only earns €16,501 a year are they in a position to pay income tax?
according to the PWC tax calculator they earn
Monthly disposable income €1,363
Weekly disposable income €314

Subtract rent for a very modest single room in a shared house which will vary from anywhere between €100 and €175 per week depending on what part of the country you are living in and that immediately halves the disposable income straight away in many cases. I would imagine that this cost might be slightly more if living in Dublin.
Then include transport costs (€180.00 per month in Dublin, with a leap card in Cork fares are nearly €2 each way so a minimum of €80 a month if bus is only used for getting to work but this is unrealistic the card will also be used for shopping and social trips so lets be reasonable can call that closer to €100 per month) , groceries, and other living expenses and that leaves very little indeed as actual disposable income for 'luxuries' such as a night out in a pub, going to the cinema or a meal with friends in a restaurant once a week. In fact the majority of these people would be better of on the dole but it is good to see that they prefer to work.

The minute income tax is demanded from these very low income workers a large number will revert back to living on the dole, which would totally defeat the purpose of applying income tax in the first place.

So are you really trying to suggest they are even capable of also paying income tax?
Do you actually want to see you own income tax increase to cover the cost of those that no longer work because it is no longer a viable option for these people.

But its a too high percentage of workers. A million. A MILLION. There are 2.3m working people in Ireland and 1m of them pay no income tax. That is utterly unsustainable. No wonder services are crumbling. And yes I know this is not the only cause but its pretty stark.

lawred2

galwayllm wrote: »

FF & FG will be the very very last parties I'd ever vote for ..

They need to be gone... They'll make us a failed state..

bit of an exaggeration

galwayllm

lawred2 wrote: »

bit of an exaggeration

To you maybe, but you obviously are a supporter of either FF or FG ..

Everything is a matter of opinion, and this is mine.

If you ask me it's a failed state to a large degree already with what leo and his goones have done and given away to the EU..

You fall in line, like a good boy. I'll oppose what I think is a massive wrong on good honest hard WORKING Irish people.

lawred2

galwayllm wrote: »

To you maybe, but you obviously are a supporter of either FF or FG ..

Everything is a matter of opinion, and this is mine.

If you ask me it's a failed state to a large degree already with what leo and his goones have done and given away to the EU..

You fall in line, like a good boy. I'll oppose what I think is a massive wrong on good honest hard WORKING Irish people.

obviously

:rolleyes:

listen - go look up what a failed state is defined as and where Ireland ranks with regards to failed states and the likelihood of becoming a failed state... or you know... don't bother and just keep on howling at the moon.

Ulysses Gaze

galwayllm wrote: »

To you maybe, but you obviously are a supporter of either FF or FG ..

Everything is a matter of opinion, and this is mine.

If you ask me it's a failed state to a large degree already with what leo and his goones have done and given away to the EU..

You fall in line, like a good boy. I'll oppose what I think is a massive wrong on good honest hard WORKING Irish people.

This is laughable.

Somalia is a failed state. Liberia is a failed state. Venezuela is a failed state. The Congo is a failed state.

Ireland is not a failed state.

And before you rant at me, I don't vote for either of the two main parties.

I don't vote in general elections.

efanton

Eric Cartman wrote: »

120k a year .... extremely wealthy... i just dont even know where to start.

This BuT ThEy PaY VaT aNd ExCiSe crap needs to die a death, when people say taxpayers they mean income tax and nothing else. Most other taxes are pissing into the wind in comparison.

Its the people in the 33-150k a year bracket that are really squeezed here, those are the ones we need to help. The higher tax rate which is an abomination should be reduced to a marginal 40% including USC if not abolished , it should kick in at 100-150k and everyone below that from minimum wage up should be on 20% with the current tax credits left in place. That would make a much fairer playing field

Nearly two thirds of households in Ireland have a gross income below €60k (in 2016 sorry could find more up to date figures from CSO but that figure will not have jumped significantly).
In fact significantly more households earn less than €40k than those earning €60k total before taxes and deductions.
Also its the other charges and deductions from wages (PRSI, USC etc) that significantly impact middle and lower income earners.

I think you are being totally disingenuous by suggesting an individual earning €150k is some how being squeezed. Most are married or are living with partners and their total disposable household income after deductions, monthly bills, mortgage or rent, etc, will be multiples of the total income for for majority of households in the country which still have to pay their monthly bills, mortgage or rent, etc.
Their surplus spending or pocket money is significant (certainly in excess of $2000 per month) where as for many (possibly the majority) such a thing does not exist at all.

The simple fact is those with single individual earning of in excess of €120k could easily afford a very modest increase in income tax on earnings over €120k and this could be used to raise the threshold of the 40% tax which would benefit the middle income earners. I keep hearing people crying about the squeezed middle, but without being able to apply additional taxation to the very low income earners where else will it come from.

shesty

It's pretty depressing.
I think most people like to complain but don't want to hear they might have to pay more tax to fund better public services, or have to take a reduction in benefits or allowances (I see FF already talking about raising children's allowance, FFS).
It's easier to keep voting in the familiar than to accept any form of change as far as I can see.People are very resistant to change.It's a bit of a "better the devil you know" scenario.

ChikiChiki

shesty wrote: »

It's pretty depressing.
I think most people like to complain but don't want to hear they might have to pay more tax to fund better public services, or have to take a reduction in benefits or allowances (I see FF already talking about raising children's allowance, FFS).
It's easier to keep voting in the familiar than to accept any form of change as far as I can see.People are very resistant to change.It's a bit of a "better the devil you know" scenario.

This old chestnut. Maybe if the current tax we pay was not wasted in so many areas then people would happily pay more tax.

lawred2

ChikiChiki wrote: »

This old chestnut. Maybe if the current tax we pay was not wasted in so many areas then people would happily pay more tax.

or indeed wouldn't even need to pay more tax

Geuze

efanton wrote: »

Nearly two thirds of households in Ireland have a gross income below €60k (in 2016 sorry could find more up to date figures from CSO but that figure will not have jumped significantly).
In fact significantly more households earn less than €40k than those earning €60k total before taxes and deductions.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2018/income/


Median household income is 49,260.

So half earn below this, half above.



After direct taxes and transfers, the median disposable income is 42,865 per household.

Billcarson

shesty wrote: »

It's easier to keep voting in the familiar than to accept any form of change as far as I can see.People are very resistant to change.It's a bit of a "better the devil you know" scenario.

They haven't got the balls is what it largely comes down to ,pure and simple.

Snow Garden

efanton wrote: »

The biggest problem this country has is that we have a civil service, state agencies and other bodies that simply do not get best value for money. They are spending state money, which equates to them as someone else's money, so they simply do not care. Our competitive tendering is a joke, if every company overcharges (as they do) when tendering there will never be good value. Also its very apparent that our biggest services and agencies are extremely lazy when it comes to tendering. We have a children's hospital tendered at a certain price and suddenly its now nearly double. No penalty clauses, no fixed price tendering, no time limits, no legal stipulation, in fact nothing that a typical private sector corporation or business would ensure were in place before they put pen to contract. personally I would like to see a system similar to a dutch auction put in place where the state offers a price and the first business that accepts that price (as long as all conditions of the tender are met), gets the contract. If no provider accepts then simply go another round.

We also have absolutely no incentive whatsoever for these agencies to save money. If they save 50 million this year, the result is next years budget is reduced by that amount. Having worked for a company that did a lot of work for state bodies and county councils I can tell you that the sales guys cleaned up every year simply calling them a few weeks before their financial year was up, as the managers of these agencies were keen to ensure their entire budget was used and any surplus spent.

Yep that is still happening if every single council. It's criminally wasteful to be honest.

efanton

Geuze wrote: »

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-silc/surveyonincomeandlivingconditionssilc2018/income/


Median household income is 49,260.

So half earn below this, half above.



After direct taxes and transfers, the median disposable income is 42,865 per household.

49,260 is not even mentioned on that page unless you are talking about table 2.1 b and yet it clearly states MEAN.
You do realise the difference between MEAN and MEDIAN?

if there were ten people at a table and nine earned approximate €30k a year but one earned €120k a year, then the average or mean would be (9x30k + 1x€120k / 10) which works out at €39k. All of a sudden these nine workers are suddenly €9k a year (or 13%) better off without even knowing it.
Ask you employer for a 13% pay rise and give us the reaction, I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that one

If we were to calculate the MEDIAN for those same ten people it would simply be €30k being that €30k was the most typical income earned.
As stated in a previous post the average is a terrible metric to use with regards to incomes because only a very few extreme outliers will affect the majority adversely and give a totally unrealistic picture of reality as clearly demonstrated in the example above . The median is a far better metric because it relates to real world applications and is not affected extreme outliers

from the same page

The nominal mean equivalised disposable income was €26,766 and 63.4% of individuals had an equivalised disposable income that was less than this amount.

Here again some degree of rounding was used, that adversely affects the results.


But here is the reality. Nominal mean and real mean are two totally different things altogether

Real median equivalised disposable income for males was €22,991 in 2018, 4.6% higher than the corresponding 2018 figure for females (€21,973).

so using that as a basis for a typical households disposable income, where generally there is a male and female partner, not withstand that there are now many same sex partners, the median household income is typically not €49,260 as you stated incorrectly but in reality only €44,964 by using those figures, but somehow the CSO states

National income definition: total disposable household income Nominal Median 42,865

which happens to be even less.

I suggest you brush up on you elementary maths. If you cant understand them then why should anyone believe what you have to say about anything else.

galwayllm

Failed state I tell ya