Glitching from new simulcast freqs from Kippure

Ger Roe

I am living in north wicklow and have a simple contract aerial on the roof that has been used to receive digital TV from Kippure, since the early tests and full Saorview service launch. It is working well, with no issues - signal strength at 80% and quality at 75%.

Recently, I have scanned and stored the simulcast new frequencies and with similar signal strength and quality readings, I am getting a lot of glitching - picture freeze while sound carries on and random short breakup of picture.

Not sure why this might be... monitoring the currently used freqs at the same time shows no issues. Could it be something to do with the higher frequencies being used that they might be more sensitive to local electrical interference?.

I am not sure what the reason is, but using the same equipment, I certainly seem to have an issue with viewing on the new simulcast frequencies. It's probably local conditions, maybe even house related, but what could it be?

Any ideas?

Elvis Hammond

Ger Roe wrote: »

I am living in north wicklow and have a simple contract aerial on the roof that has been used to receive digital TV from Kippure, since the early tests and full Saorview service launch. It is working well, with no issues - signal strength at 80% and quality at 75%.

Recently, I have scanned and stored the simulcast new frequencies and with similar signal strength and quality readings, I am getting a lot of glitching - picture freeze while sound carries on and random short breakup of picture.

Not sure why this might be... monitoring the currently used freqs at the same time shows no issues. Could it be something to do with the higher frequencies being used that they might be more sensitive to local electrical interference? ...

The new freqs. at Kippure are lower than the old, like everywhere else, since it's the top of the band that's being cleared; I think it's the biggest change, going from 54 & 58, to 34 & 35.

I'd say it's just weak signal, even if the TV is telling you it's similar to the old freqs. Your aerial, whether it's group C/D or W, would be better suited to the top end of the band.

Ger Roe

Thanks for the clarification Elvis. I'll do some aerial experimentation between now and March. I didn't realise that the freq change was so wide.

I have to say that between freq changes, service updates and new filler transmitters being added, there has been a fair bit of technical adjustment required in the Wicklow area within the relatively short life of Saorview.

I don't remember having to make so many adjustments back in the old days of a coat hanger out the back of the TV when living in Sandyford and picking up Three Rock with a piece of damp string

The Cush

A Group A red tip aerial would now be recommended for Kippure. You may be able to identify the current aerial by the colour of the plastic bung at the tip of the aerial but as posted already the aerial is likely to be a Group C/D (green tip) or Group W (black tip)

http://www.2rn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/2RN-DTT-Television-Transmission-Network-Sept-2019-Rev.1.2.pdf

Ger Roe wrote: »

I have to say that between freq changes, service updates and new filler transmitters being added, there has been a fair bit of technical adjustment required in the Wicklow area within the relatively short life of Saorview.

I don't remember having to make so many adjustments back in the old days of a coat hanger out the back of the TV when living in Sandyford and picking up Three Rock with a piece of damp string

In the last 10 years there's been 2 blocks of TV spectrum released for mobile services and expect at least another one in the next decade. Unlike analogue TV much more digital TV can be squeezed into a smaller amount of spectrum resulting in a financial return for the exchequer when the spectrum is auctioned off.

Ger Roe

I looked at the Saorview coverage map and it said I was in a challenging area and to consult a local aerial installer.

I have been watching tv from Kippure since the late 80's and Saorview since the early tests. I sent an email off to saorview , just asking if they would recommend sticking with Kippure or swinging around to the filler in Greystones and they just put my address into the same online coverage checker and sent me the same response. They even suggested I consider Saorsat .... for north east Wicklow ??

I'll pick up a group A aerial and see what happens, I really don't think the reception level is as bad as they seem to expect... afterall, I have no issues with the current frequencies.

The Cush

Ger Roe wrote: »

I have been watching tv from Kippure since the late 80's and Saorview since the early tests. I sent an email off to saorview , just asking if they would recommend sticking with Kippure or swinging around to the filler in Greystones and they just put my address into the same online coverage checker and sent me the same response. They even suggested I consider Saorsat .... for north east Wicklow ??

Coverage prediction I believe is desktop modeled on an aerial at 10m above ground level, but of course on the ground things can be different that effect reception, such as aerial height, aerial location, obstacles in the area.

Coverage from Kippure I would have thought should be better than before as it got a height extension for the run in to the frequency change.

Ger Roe

I would be confident that a change of antenna to the new group will be fine.

It's very inconvenient that there has been so much technical change in the relatively short time since the service was launched and the lack of a more considered response to my current question is also disappointing.

Anyway, I will do some experimenting and then report back.

Elvis Hammond

Ger Roe wrote: »

... It's very inconvenient that there has been so much technical change in the relatively short time since the service was launched and the lack of a more considered response to my current question is also disappointing.

There hasn't really been much change though; any equipment that met the 1st official specs. will still work, & I don't think previous retunes went outside aerial groups.

I'm not sure what help you were expecting from them, since they're at the same remove as us here, & it's really the kind of thing where you need someone 'on the ground'. Where reception is affected by terrain, trees etc., something as simple as moving the aerial vertically might do the trick, even if the group isn't right.

Re. Greystones; it isn't getting as big a frequency change as Kippure, so might be worth a go with your current aerial, if you're in the right area. (Don't forget it's vertical polarisation.)

Antenna

The Cush wrote: »

In the last 10 years there's been 2 blocks of TV spectrum released for mobile services and expect at least another one in the next decade. Unlike analogue TV much more digital TV can be squeezed into a smaller amount of spectrum resulting in a financial return for the exchequer when the spectrum is auctioned off.

Though repacking the Freeview services in the UK into smaller amount of spectrum (due to 700MHz clearance) is creating much greater probability and severity of reception loss (from nearer co-channel transmitters) during atmospheric 'lift' conditions for a sizeable percentage of viewers.

There has been an unprecedented level of severity of disruption to Freeview reception due to atmospheric conditions in recent weeks, one report here:
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50945421

and made worse by occurring around peak time of year for TV viewing, and also disproportionally morseo affecting elderly people who are less likely to have other services for TV viewing.

Ger Roe

Antenna wrote: »

Though repacking the Freeview services in the UK into smaller amount of spectrum (due to 700MHz clearance) is creating much greater probability and severity of reception loss (from nearer co-channel transmitters) during atmospheric 'lift' conditions for a sizeable percentage of viewers.

There has been an unprecedented level of severity of disruption to Freeview reception due to atmospheric conditions in recent weeks, one report here:
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50945421

and made worse by occurring around peak time of year for TV viewing, and also disproportionally morseo affecting elderly people who are less likely to have other services for TV viewing.

That's interesting.

I'm not sure if weather is a factor with me, but one evening last week I noticed that the new frequencies were off (no signal being received) but the current (original) frequencies were operating normally. The next evening, the new freqs were back on and without any issue. They have been fine since (no glitching) nothing has changed at my location, the same antenna and cable and receivers are still in use.

I am going to hold off making any antenna changes and monitor for a while longer to see what happens.

mrdtv2010

The possible explanation: Winter Hill is changing its post 700Mhz clearance frequencies some of which are cochannel with the NEW Kippure frequencies. They are Group A too.It has been reported on digitalspy that Arqiva have been testing the new Winter Hill frequencies this week. In North Wicklow I would not be surprised if you were on high ground that CCI would be a possibility as that transmitter reaches all the way to Anglesey and South Down in normal conditions. Welcome to the new 700Mhz clearance world. That transmitter is a belter, has very high HAAT, and now its a Group A station from April...

Ger Roe

That's very interesting. The glitching is back in the past few days. Looks like some testing with a new group a antenna is now required.

mrdtv2010

https://www.freeview.co.uk/sites/default/files/2019-11/700mhz-clearance-events-granada-region.pdf

Just look at the new Winter Hill frequencies from April. E34 and E35 are to be used, currently E32 is confirmed testing and the others are likely to be as well as Winter Hill is switching from C/D to Group A then. A highly directional antenna might be needed then for you or another transmitter.Current weather conditions are very good for lift propagation.

Ger Roe

Just to add to the confusion.... I have been monitoring the new frequencies in more detail this week and it seems that the glitching is only on one of the two new frequencies from Kippure.

The new RTE 1 HD freq 666000/8 Mhz is glitching badly, especially since the strong winds recently.

The 642000/8 Mhz (RTE2 HD) is fine, as are both current frequencies.


Why would my antenna be causing problems on only one out of four frequencies?
Could there be an issue with the transmission antenna at Kippure for the 666 freq? Is there anyone here monitoring the new freqs from Kippure that can say all is well with them?

I am at a loss as to what to do at this stage, since I had thought the glitching was happening at random times and I assumed on both new freqs, but now I can certainly say that it is only on one of the two new frequencies, and certainly much worse in the last few windy days. My antenna seems to be rock solid and has perfect reception on the other three frequencies.

Elvis Hammond

Ger Roe wrote: »

Just to add to the confusion.... I have been monitoring the new frequencies in more detail this week and it seems that the glitching is only on one of the two new frequencies from Kippure.

The new RTE 1 HD freq 666000/8 Mhz is glitching badly, especially since the strong winds recently.

The 642000/8 Mhz (RTE2 HD) is fine, as are both current frequencies.


Why would my antenna be causing problems on only one out of four frequencies?
Could there be an issue with the transmission antenna at Kippure for the 666 freq? Is there anyone here monitoring the new freqs from Kippure that can say all is well with them? ...

666 MHz is ch. 45, 642 is ch. 42, so that's Greystones, not Kippure.

The Cush

@Ger Roe
To avoid any confusion use the coverage checker find the transmitter recommended for your location - https://www.saorview.ie/en/get/coverage

If Greystones, different aerial group to Kippure - Group K

Elvis Hammond

A group C/D aerial should be alright for chs. 42 & 45, if that's what he has already.

The Cush

Elvis Hammond wrote: »

A group C/D aerial should be alright for chs. 42 & 45, if that's what he has already.

If it works interference free no problem, but Group C/D and Group W overlap both the current 4G mobile band and future 5G mobile band and could be susceptible to inward interference

If an aerial has to be changed or installed it would be recommended to fit the correct Group for the local transmitter.

Ger Roe

The Cush wrote: »

@Ger Roe
To avoid any confusion use the coverage checker find the transmitter recommended for your location - https://www.saorview.ie/en/get/coverage

If Greystones, different aerial group to Kippure - Group K

The coverage checker and a direct email to Saorview, both advise that I am in a 'difficult coverage area'. Neither source would recommend what transmitter to point at. Most houses in the area (just north of Newtownmounteknnedy and adjacent to the N11) have always used kippure - even when the filler in Greystones was introduced. It looks like I am picking up greystones off the antenna pointed at Kippure.

To try and reduce my confusion - what are the new actual frequencies for Kippure? My receiver doesn't display channel numbers.

I am gong to delete all stored channels at the moment and scan again from scratch. I can then scan for the actual frequencies of the new Kippure services and hopefully clear my confusion then.

I will sort this... eventually.

Elvis Hammond

Ch. 34 is 578 MHz, ch. 35 is 586 MHz.

The Cush

Have you used a professional aerial installer to check your setup?

Ger Roe

No. But I am reasonably technical and have been experimenting and viewing without issue since the early digital tests and on into the service launch.

Thanks for the freq clarifications - I will look into it all again... after the election coverage binge that I am currently undertaking.

The Cush

Ger Roe wrote: »

No. But I am reasonably technical and have been experimenting and viewing without issue since the early digital tests and on into the service launch..

Maybe consider a higher-gain aerial.

Ger Roe

Got it now...

The auto scan was not picking up the new frequencies from Kippure. When I entered the specific frequencies and searched for them individually, they came in and are glitch free. Looks like I don't have to change anything.

My confusion was being caused by the auto scan pulling in the Greystones frequencies. It's the problem of being in a challenging area and receiving two set's of frequencies from two different locations. Even when the correct frequencies were received the advisory prompt to retune remained - that confused me again, until I rebooted the box and it corrected itself.

It would all have been easier if the advisory prompt indicated which transmitter it was coming from and if it was the current or future frequency.

Thanks for the help guys.