General Election and Government Formation Megathread (see post #1)

ThunbergsAreGo

fergiesfolly wrote: »

If between them( FF, FG) they have nearly half the electorate voting for them. And with a third party(GP/SD) can form a government. Why is it undemocratic and undermining the will of the people to do so?
Why is it that only SF have a devine right to form a government?

It's not, we live in a democracy, not in a place where those who shout loudest win - thankfully.

Ireland will get the government it deserves, regardless of who it is.

An Ciarraioch

Interesting development, even if ultimately symbolic - Ógra FF reject a coalition with FG:

https://twitter.com/OgraFiannaFail/status/1234197693620260864

L1011

Labour Youth opposed going in with FG in 2011. It means nothing, except possibly some resignations.

Grab All Association

Michael Martin has betold tales to these newly elected FF TD’s of nepotism appointments to state boards, bribes and other perks of ministerial positions.

They had run out of relatives and friends that they were almost appointing their family pets to boards of NRA, arts council etc

is_that_so

fergiesfolly wrote: »

If between them( FF, FG) they have nearly half the electorate voting for them. And with a third party(GP/SD) can form a government. Why is it undemocratic and undermining the will of the people to do so?
Why is it that only SF have a divine right to form a government?

It's the tyranny of numbers and a claim that they "won" the election. In that context the spin is aided by the general cluelessness of the electorate about the challenges of government formation and the wrongheaded idea that it goes against democracy if it doesn't mirror how votes were cast.

WishUWereHere

Just watching The Week In Politics.

My oh my, but Irish politics is one BIG mess. Seems IF this bunch do form a government it certainly won't be lasting long. Also I wonder just how safe is ryans leadership?

charlie14

WishUWereHere wrote: »

Just watching The Week In Politics.

My oh my, but Irish politics is one BIG mess. Seems IF this bunch do form a government it certainly won't be lasting long. Also I wonder just how safe is ryans leadership?

The Greens at the minute remind me of Brendan Behan`s quote of any Irish republicans meeting where the first item on the agenda would be the split

WishUWereHere

charlie14 wrote: »

The Greens at the minute remind me of Brendan Behan`s quote of any Irish republicans meeting where the first item on the agenda would be the split

LOL, Good one!!

There's a movie doing the rounds on one of the Sony/TCM channels at the moment - Sleeping with The Enemy. Either of FFG jump into bed with the greens and this movie's title springs to mind.

Also, me being a lifelong Labour supporter but NEVER support them ever again after the way gilmaore and burton ( in particular) turned their ideals purely on power hungry mania, i somehow think the greens are basically following in liebours footsteps.

charlie14

WishUWereHere wrote: »

LOL, Good one!!

There's a movie doing the rounds on one of the Sony/TCM channels at the moment - Sleeping with The Enemy. Either of FFG jump into bed with the greens and this movie's title springs to mind.

Also, me being a lifelong Labour supporter but NEVER support them ever again after the way gilmaore and burton ( in particular) turned their ideals purely on power hungry mania, i somehow think the greens are basically following in liebours footsteps.

A Labour voter myself until the 2011 general election. Never again for exactly the same reasons

WishUWereHere

charlie14 wrote: »

A Labour voter myself until the 2011 general election. Never again for exactly the same reasons

I have put my faith in the SD's 'hands for the present. I am aware they effed up with that councillor in Blanchardstown ( I think ). But will give them another chance to see what they are made of. I do think Murphy & Shorthall are good politicians, also glad that dud Donnelly left them, they have far better credentials without him.

Whatever happens, interesting times ahead.

WishUWereHere

Also, who the hell is Pippa Hackett?

What is her role in the greens?

eire4

charlie14 wrote: »

The Greens at the minute remind me of Brendan Behan`s quote of any Irish republicans meeting where the first item on the agenda would be the split

That is just hilarious. Cracked me up when I read that. Like so much of the best that is funny its also true.

I hear what your saying on Labour as well. Do you think things will be any better with Alan Kelly?

elperello

WishUWereHere wrote: »

Also, who the hell is Pippa Hackett?

What is her role in the greens?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pippa_Hackett

There you go.

Well educated woman Phd no less and a Senator to boot..

markodaly

I think people have unwholly expectations on what a political party and thus a coalition government actually does.
It's kinda mind-bogglingly in a way, because for 42 years, we have been living in the age of coalition governments, yet we act as if single majority governments are the default and try and elect people on that basis where compromise is neither here nor there.

The Greens need to **** or get off the pot.
Similar to FF, they need to accept they lost the election and suck up either, going in with SF or FG. If SF is a step too far, then they need to suck up the FG option.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

I think people have unwholly expectations on what a political party and thus a coalition government actually does.
It's kinda mind-bogglingly in a way, because for 42 years, we have been living in the age of coalition governments, yet we act as if single majority governments are the default and try and elect people on that basis where compromise is neither here nor there.

The Greens need to **** or get off the pot.
Similar to FF, they need to accept they lost the election and suck up either, going in with SF or FG. If SF is a step too far, then they need to suck up the FG option.

Why does anyone 'have' to 'suck it up'?

if they are not compatible, they shouldn't be going in.

Taking a sledgehammer to your principles or buying/selling in return for Garda stations and bypasses etc is not proper coalition, it is sleeveen coalition invented by the power swap parties here primarily.

loyatemu

markodaly wrote: »

I think people have unwholly expectations on what a political party and thus a coalition government actually does.
It's kinda mind-bogglingly in a way, because for 42 years, we have been living in the age of coalition governments, yet we act as if single majority governments are the default and try and elect people on that basis where compromise is neither here nor there.

The Greens need to **** or get off the pot.
Similar to FF, they need to accept they lost the election and suck up either, going in with SF or FG. If SF is a step too far, then they need to suck up the FG option.

they're trying to get as many of their policies as possible into the programme. What's wrong with that?

They probably realise that they'll get screwed over when the next election happens and find themselves losing seats, as always happens to small parties. However they also realise that they'll achieve nothing in perpetual opposition and with the climate crisis they don't have time to wait.

Snow Garden

The election was on February 8th - 3 months later, are we still paying TDs that lost their seats?

Peregrinus

Snow Garden wrote: »

The election was on February 8th - 3 months later, are we still paying TDs that lost their seats?

No.

We're paying Ministers that lost their seats. But that's not unreasonable, since they are still doing the job. It's hardly their fault that they have to keep doing it because a Dail of which they are not members cannot agree on a new government.

charlie14

eire4 wrote: »

That is just hilarious. Cracked me up when I read that. Like so much of the best that is funny its also true.

I hear what your saying on Labour as well. Do you think things will be any better with Alan Kelly?

From his involvement in the water charge`s fiasco, reviled by many who call him AK47.

I would confidently expect he will shoot himself in at least one foot before too long.

BonnieSituation

Peregrinus wrote: »

No.

We're paying Ministers that lost their seats. But that's not unreasonable, since they are still doing the job. It's hardly their fault that they have to keep doing it because a Dail of which they are not members cannot agree on a new government.

Unless it's the Minister for Stepaside Garda Station who had done next to nothing since then. Or previously to that for that matter.

---

Despite that other thread that is seeking to find a solution to this "issue", and my disdain for said minister, I do think the way we have it set up for this scenario is rather elegant and straightforward.

WishUWereHere

elperello wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pippa_Hackett

There you go.

Well educated woman Phd no less and a Senator to boot..

Thanks for the heads up. I was however, thinking more along the lines of the other 4 'guests' who were there in conjunction with especially education. Surely the greens ought to have put forward their education spokesperson, whom I believe is
https://www.greenparty.ie/people/catherine-martin/

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why does anyone 'have' to 'suck it up'?

I thought I made that point clear in my post.

if they are not compatible, they shouldn't be going in.

You think FF and SF are more compatible I presume?

Taking a sledgehammer to your principles or buying/selling in return for Garda stations and bypasses etc is not proper coalition, it is sleeveen coalition invented by the power swap parties here primarily.

Well, that is one mighty cynical way of looking at it, but again, we have not had a majority government for 42 years and counting.
If you are looking for some supreme virtuous benevolent coalition government, then perhaps you should not follow politics.

Take the other example, say if SF and FF go into a coalition, will that not be the same type of coalition as you laid with a bit of horse-trading, or even a left-wing government if the numbers are ever there.
Or is it simply wholly virtuous because of your own personal preference on the matter on who is doing the negotiations?

markodaly

loyatemu wrote: »

they're trying to get as many of their policies as possible into the programme. What's wrong with that?

Nothing at all.
But either they are negotiationg really hard, or there is absolute division behind the scenes.

[
They probably realise that they'll get screwed over when the next election happens and find themselves losing seats, as always happens to small parties. However they also realise that they'll achieve nothing in perpetual opposition and with the climate crisis they don't have time to wait.

True and true. Another truth is that if they appear to bow out of government and with that force an election, then they will also lose seats. No matter what outcome, they are not going to win, so they are better off going in for now.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

I thought I made that point clear in my post.



You think FF and SF are more compatible I presume?



Well, that is one mighty cynical way of looking at it, but again, we have not had a majority government for 42 years and counting.
If you are looking for some supreme virtuous benevolent coalition government, then perhaps you should not follow politics.

Take the other example, say if SF and FF go into a coalition, will that not be the same type of coalition as you laid with a bit of horse-trading, or even a left-wing government if the numbers are ever there.
Or is it simply wholly virtuous because of your own personal preference on the matter on who is doing the negotiations?

MM opened the door to SF when he thought he was going to have 50ish seats on the night of the count.

That tells you how FF view coalitions. They need to wield the power in them. As soon as it became apparent that FF had won the same amount of seats as SF the door was shut again.

SF, I believe will only go in with FG or FF if they get their fair and equal share of the programme of government. They are not going in as the whipping boys and girls.
That has more to do with why FF and FG will not engage than any spurious high moral gounding.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

MM opened the door to SF when he thought he was going to have 50ish seats on the night of the count.

That tells you how FF view coalitions. They need to wield the power in them. As soon as it became apparent that FF had won the same amount of seats as SF the door was shut again.

I think you are reading an awful lot into an off the cuff comment made at a count centre. Simply put FF are divided on this but the FF parliamentary party is supporting MM's position, for now.

SF, I believe will only go in with FG or FF if they get their fair and equal share of the programme of government. They are not going in as the whipping boys and girls.
That has more to do with why FF and FG will not engage than any spurious high moral gounding.

This reads as if one is still fighting the election. We know you think FF and FG are awful and that SF are the second coming, but I think once/if SF get their chance at the wheel, that virtuosity you seem to hold in high regard may well come up against a granite wall of 'needs must'.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

I think you are reading an awful lot into an off the cuff comment made at a count centre. Simply put FF are divided on this but the FF parliamentary party is supporting MM's position, for now.

Martin is too long in the tooth to not know what he was saying.
I'm far from alone as the media and most here (if you look at the relevant election count thread) saw it for what it was.

This reads as if one is still fighting the election. We know you think FF and FG are awful and that SF are the second coming, but I think once/if SF get their chance at the wheel, that virtuosity you seem to hold in high regard may well come up against a granite wall of 'needs must'.

I don't think FF and FG are 'awful' as it happens. I think they are the same and that we need a change in how politics is done in that context.
SF are positioning themselves to bring that change about.(have done it already as the usual power swap is no longer available) They have forced..first C&S and now a coalition between two civil war parties.
I have no doubt that they will have their own issues and mistakes in government.

Good loser

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Martin is too long in the tooth to not know what he was saying.
I'm far from alone as the media and most here (if you look at the relevant election count thread) saw it for what it was.





I don't think FF and FG are 'awful' as it happens. I think they are the same and that we need a change in how politics is done in that context.
SF are positioning themselves to bring that change about.(have done it already as the usual power swap is no longer available) They have forced..first C&S and now a coalition between two civil war parties.
I have no doubt that they will have their own issues and mistakes in government.

I'm around for a long time and I think the last Govt was the most talented we've ever had.
There are, at most, 3 SF TDs from the last Dail who could have done a decent job in Cabinet. Setting aside their infantile macro economic policies.

maura2e

Just curious what this portends for MM/FF? Is there a move underfoot to challenge him for leadership? Is this the way the wind is blowing as the Greens may not go in unless they get a substantial part of forming a program for govt?

"TD John McGuinness @JMcGuinnessTD) tells #TodayRTE: "I see no difficulty whatsoever in doing business with other parties, including Sinn Féin, if we’re determined and passionate about getting this country moving again". From yesterdays show #TodayRTE with Sarah McInernney

Banner fights back

One of the silliest rows in Irish political history is threatening the collapse of the govt formation talks. FF and FG row over planning for GE 2020 2.0 has escalated after an bizarre statement from FG who this afternoon have claimed that comments from Barry Cowen and Thomas Byrne about this issue are "unhelpful" and have damaged the govt formation talks.

What will also erk FF is that FG didn't put the fada in their name.

An GE again is inevitable in the not too distant future. Leo and MM are meeting tomorrow to discuss this most nonsensical of rows. If anything this petty squabble will have the effect to benefit SF which is ironic given that these talks were taking place to effectively try to form an govt to ensure that SF don't reach sight of govt.

Mary Lou in the driving seat I feel. What must Eamon Ryan and the greens are thinking at this stage.

windy shepard henderson

Banner fights back wrote: »

One of the silliest rows in Irish political history is threatening the collapse of the govt formation talks. FF and FG row over planning for GE 2020 2.0 has escalated after an bizarre statement from FG who this afternoon have claimed that comments from Barry Cowen and Thomas Byrne about this issue are "unhelpful" and have damaged the govt formation talks.

What will also erk FF is that FG didn't put the fada in their name.

An GE again is inevitable in the not too distant future. Leo and MM are meeting tomorrow to discuss this most nonsensical of rows. If anything this petty squabble will have the effect to benefit SF which is ironic given that these talks were taking place to effectively try to form an govt to ensure that SF don't reach sight of govt.

Mary Lou in the driving seat I feel. What must Eamon Ryan and the greens are thinking at this stage.

the best thing FG could do here is not enter government which would leave a hung dail and another election , there popularity has soared in the last 8 weeks and it would hamper FF's vote in the process , SF would be strong again in the next election too but FG would probably regain nearly 20 seats lost in the last election if another was called now

markodaly

The latest spat is interesting but I feel there is a lot of heat on FF as they see the sands of time-shifting against them. Vocal outbursts by Barry Cowen aside, it will be hard for them to stop.
People say MM is done, and someone else should be leader of FF, but whom exactly. Their front bench is not exactly swimming with talent.

ThunbergsAreGo

windy shepard henderson wrote: »

the best thing FG could do here is not enter government which would leave a hung dail and another election , there popularity has soared in the last 8 weeks and it would hamper FF's vote in the process , SF would be strong again in the next election too but FG would probably regain nearly 20 seats lost in the last election if another was called now

If the election was now I'd agree. I think by the time lock down is over we will see a lot of anger towards FG

rob316

markodaly wrote: »

The latest spat is interesting but I feel there is a lot of heat on FF as they see the sands of time-shifting against them. Vocal outbursts by Barry Cowen aside, it will be hard for them to stop.
People say MM is done, and someone else should be leader of FF, but whom exactly. Their front bench is not exactly swimming with talent.

Martin is an awful choice for leader, he's from that old corrupt FF gaurd but he is hell-bent on been taoiseach. McGrath would be a better choice as leader but I agree its low on talent.

rob316

Good loser wrote: »

I'm around for a long time and I think the last Govt was the most talented we've ever had.
There are, at most, 3 SF TDs from the last Dail who could have done a decent job in Cabinet. Setting aside their infantile macro economic policies.

Talented? I guess when you ignore the housing, health, transport, sport and social protection ministers.

Infini

windy shepard henderson wrote: »

the best thing FG could do here is not enter government which would leave a hung dail and another election , there popularity has soared in the last 8 weeks and it would hamper FF's vote in the process , SF would be strong again in the next election too but FG would probably regain nearly 20 seats lost in the last election if another was called now

Honestly the minging from FF on the whole planning for another election is just a waste of time, of course there's going to be planning for another election if these talks go nowhere they have to have a backup plan and the truth is that no new laws can currently be passed due to the current limbo, they know they will do even less better next time than last time so that should focus their minds more. There's plenty of things you can criticize FG on but planning for another election is not one of them, it makes absolute sense considering the circumstances and it's just pointless posturing.

Claw Hammer

it is very suspicious when you see civil servants planning something in advance. They invariably wait for something to happen and then make it up as they go along and claim nobody could have foreseen it and they have no choice but to do whatever stupid thing they do to try and get out of the problem.

markodaly

rob316 wrote: »

Martin is an awful choice for leader, he's from that old corrupt FF gaurd but he is hell-bent on been taoiseach. McGrath would be a better choice as leader but I agree its low on talent.

McGrath would probably be a competent minister but a Taoiseach to rally the troops and get public support? I just don't see it. He has the charisma of a stone and has lots of baggage.

Geuze

Peregrinus wrote: »

No.

We're paying Ministers that lost their seats. But that's not unreasonable, since they are still doing the job. It's hardly their fault that they have to keep doing it because a Dail of which they are not members cannot agree on a new government.

I assume we are paying the ministerial allowance to these Ministers, but not the TD salary?

Quin_Dub

Geuze wrote: »

I assume we are paying the ministerial allowance to these Ministers, but not the TD salary?

I'd imagine they are getting their full salary etc.

Why wouldn't they? - They are essentially working an extended notice period.

If you were made redundant in the morning , but the company said they wanted you to stay on for X weeks/months , would you not expect to get paid?

Peregrinus

IIRC they continue to get the same basic salary (TD + Ministerial) that they did before, but they no longer get a TD's allowances (office, staff, travel, expenses, etc).

ninebeanrows

Is the result of this election not pretty much null and void at this stage?

To create a new government with a mandate which was given before the biggest crisis of our times would be strange.

Things have changed so much. A new election is needed.

I thought Olivia OLeary was off point in her piece yesterday about the people not forgiving FG if they went to the people.

Many people have a totally different perspective on the world and now understand the importance of competent government.

salmocab

Sleety_Rain wrote: »

Is the result of this election not pretty much null and void at this stage?

To create a new government with a mandate which was given before the biggest crisis of our times would be strange.

Things have changed so much. A new election is needed.

I thought Olivia OLeary was off point in her piece yesterday about the people not forgiving FG if they went to the people.

Many people have a totally different perspective on the world and now understand the importance of competent government.

I’d say campaigning and expecting voters to go to vote Centers is the last thing we should have now. Your substantive point might be right although the null and void bit is a stretch.

Good loser

rob316 wrote: »

Talented? I guess when you ignore the housing, health, transport, sport and social protection ministers.

Health and Social Protection were good enough. Housing okay too.


Don't know the others.


Finance, Foreign Affairs and Justice as good as we've ever had.


Also rate Creed in Ag excellent

oceanman

Good loser wrote: »

Health and Social Protection were good enough. Housing okay too.


Don't know the others.


Finance, Foreign Affairs and Justice as good as we've ever had.


Also rate Creed in Ag excellent

health and housing were a total shambles...

Bannasidhe

oceanman wrote: »

health and housing were a total shambles...

Social Protection wasn't exactly well run either - there was a complete cock-up with Illness Benefit that ran for several months and many many Livelines.

Sam Russell

Good loser wrote: »

Health and Social Protection were good enough. Housing okay too.


Don't know the others.


Finance, Foreign Affairs and Justice as good as we've ever had.


Also rate Creed in Ag excellent

Health was a disaster ever since the regional health boards were joined to form the HSE with no rationalisation. Instead of reducing staff, they have steadily increased managerial staff at the higher levels. That dates back many governments. Why was the Children's Hospital such a fiasco?

Housing has been a disaster for decades. The failure to build ANY local authority houses for decades has moved housing into the private sector, and that means private landlords. That again goes back many governments, but no attempt to reverse this with the current administration.

Finance has been good in that we have recovered (well some have) from the crash of 2008. Revenue have performed well collecting tax.

Social Protection has been OK, but the continuing increases are draining the public purse. Childrens Allowance should be taxed as income at some level, but at least they have moved away from increased amounts per child for the larger number of children, and stopped paying for fictional children abroad. Bit of an own goal with the Public Service Card.

Transport was a total disaster with a useless minister, who was more interested in the Justice job, getting involved in Garda stations and judge appointments. No Metro, no Dart Underground, no Dart expansion, and no M20.

Not a great Government, but we have had worse. The caretaker one is making massive decisions and commitments without a mandate - hope we can unravel the bad ones..

Hope the next Gov will be better.

is_that_so

I see #NotMyTaoiseach is still trending on Twitter. Never let a dusty old Constitution get between reasoning faculties and outrage!

Nody

Biden has asked Amy Klobuchar to start the vice president vetting sticking to his promise of a female vice president.

markodaly

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Social Protection wasn't exactly well run either - there was a complete cock-up with Illness Benefit that ran for several months and many many Livelines.

Interesting point.
So, is this the fault of the minister himself, or the department? Or both?

Ministers come and go, every few years, so really its the fault of the department.
If there are system failures within it and they cannot implement a new scheme or they mess something up, what should be done?

A Minister cannot come in and fire half the department overnight, or at all ever... Unions will not have it.

It's a genuine question by the way. I would like to know why a minister is responsible for people, he/she did not hire, cannot replace, cannot discipline and cannot change their work practices or rules.

BonnieSituation

Ministers are responsible for policy. Civil servants are responsible for implementing said policy.