General Election and Government Formation Megathread (see post #1)

Sam Russell

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The Sinn Fein toner cartidges is a bit dated at this stage.

It was dated but it was a lot of money wasted. €50,000 on printer cartridges is a lot of cartridges - so I doubt they were for normal TDs use.

awec

Don't know if it was already posted but read elsewhere that there is unhappiness in the FF ranks that Calleary got no ministerial position while Donnelly got Health.

Reckon Donnelly was promised a position in exchange for coming aboard?

Water John

Calleary is at the Cabinet table. If you sulk like O'Callaghan, you lose.

il gatto

hardybuck wrote: »

I think there has to be a realisation that SF didn't appear to enter Government formation talks with anyone, nor where they genuinely interested in doing so. FG led a minority Government for the last four years so they could have done similar.

You can't blame FG and FF for having an objection to SF, both on a policy level and in terms of the darkness which they can't quite shake, and seemingly don't want to. Some of that has to lie at SF's door.

And for all the “biggest party” stuff, they got a vote share well below what the opposition party normally gets. We’ve had FF and FG get 40% and be in opposition. Their messaging has convinced a lot of people because the standard of journalism is abysmal.

il gatto

BonnieSituation wrote: »

All the more reason to not give a crap about a particular region for a ministry and break the cycle.

How does it break the cycle? Dublin ministers are just as culpable for pork barrel politics as any other. It just seems to an issue when the ministers are from the sticks. All this will do is make people even more demanding of ministers the next time round.
It shouldn’t matter but it does. Ministers look after their own patch better and not having one for decades retards investment and growth.

mariaalice

il gatto wrote: »

How does it break the cycle? Dublin ministers are just as culpable for pork barrel politics as any other. It just seems to an issue when the ministers are from the sticks. All this will do is make people even more demanding of ministers the next time round.
It shouldn’t matter but it does. Ministers look after their own patch better and not having one for decades retards investment and growth.

Your faith in politicians and the decisions they make effecting investment and growth in an area is touching.

Things happen despite politicians not because of them, a good example would be when home workign becomes the norm for some individual or at least part home working it may help with reviewing rural decline, it evolved naturally as technology developed and has nothing to do with politicians.

No doubt you will still get politicians demanding a visit from the IDA and new roads because it goes down will with the local base.

awec

awec wrote: »

Don't know if it was already posted but read elsewhere that there is unhappiness in the FF ranks that Calleary got no ministerial position while Donnelly got Health.

Reckon Donnelly was promised a position in exchange for coming aboard?

Not a good way to start a new government. Regardless of how he feels, he should have kept this quiet for now when speaking to “colleagues” who have been liberally quoted in today’s papers, without names obviously.

Is he considered a future leader and is this MM’s way of keeping him down or is it that he’s skills lie firmly as a “back room boy” and doesn’t have the qualities required for full ministry? Given his longevity and previous junior minister experience and obvious geographic location in west Ireland, it does seem a strange decision

crossman47

I think Donnelly has been given a poisoned chalice. Watch him sink without trace. He has no experience and will be targetted by SF, Soc Dems and Labour.

Wanderer78

crossman47 wrote:

I think Donnelly has been given a poisoned chalice. Watch him sink without trace. He has no experience and will be targetted by SF, Soc Dems and Labour.

Ah he ll be grand

On reflection, I think the cabinet appointees has been mainly about putting forward a clean slate- it’s not about capability. It’s all about creating distance from previous administrations - new faces means “change”- at least that’s their rationale I’d say- while Calleary only held a junior ministry under Cowan, there’s “history” there of a govt MM certainly doesn’t want to be reminded of- ironic considering his own past history in that government.

We do need though to train up the leaders of the future too- that’s politics and it’s a difficult time so “change” , purely for the optics alone, is probably the key factor in the appointments

awec

crossman47 wrote: »

I think Donnelly has been given a poisoned chalice. Watch him sink without trace. He has no experience and will be targetted by SF, Soc Dems and Labour.

Donnelly has certainly talked up a good game on health.

I think FG have played a blinder in landing FF with both the Housing and Health portfolios.

jmayo

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

How exactly did you work out that it was total overkill?

I should have known you would be along to excuse public funds wastage. :rolleyes:

I do wonder what part of public service you work in.

As was discussed actually on here, the printer bought is for industralised printing.
The type of printing a print shop would be doing, not the houses of the oireachtas.
But carry on telling us what value we get for our taxes.

Water John wrote: »

Calleary is at the Cabinet table. If you sulk like O'Callaghan, you lose.

Wippe he gets to go to the meetings.

He gets to sit at cabinet, hasn't a vote and has no ministry.
He might as well be the note taker.

It is a total slap in the face for him.
And even worse he seems to be given the gig as junior minister at department of an taoiseach.
I hate to use this analogy, but he is now like the King's cupbearer out of Game of Thrones.

Although if Calleary is smart and a real politician he could use his chief whip status to royally shaft Martin down the road.

Then again I don't know if Calleary is that capable. :rolleyes:

blanch152

jmayo wrote: »

I should have known you would be along to excuse public funds wastage. :rolleyes:

I do wonder what part of public service you work in.

As was discussed actually on here, the printer bought is for industralised printing.
The type of printing a print shop would be doing, not the houses of the oireachtas.
But carry on telling us what value we get for our taxes.



Wippe he gets to go to the meetings.

He gets to sit at cabinet, hasn't a vote and has no ministry.
He might as well be the note taker.

It is a total slap in the face for him.
And even worse he seems to be given the gig as junior minister at department of an taoiseach.
I hate to use this analogy, but he is now like the King's cupbearer out of Game of Thrones.

Although if Calleary is smart and a real politician he could use his chief whip status to royally shaft Martin down the road.

Then again I don't know if Calleary is that capable. :rolleyes:

Having a vote isn't as important as you think at the cabinet table, but having a voice, which he does, most certainly is.

jmayo

blanch152 wrote: »

Having a vote isn't as important as you think at the cabinet table, but having a voice, which he does, most certainly is.

So does your wan from Galway, but it still isn't the same.
Optics can mean a lot.

You can try spin any way you want, or any way that FG wants , it is a slap in the face for Calleary.

FFS he is the junior in Martin's department.

How much more humiliating than that can you get.

If Calleary has a backbone he will knife Martin first chance he gets.

BTW seen as you seem to be in the know, what departmental supports does Chief Whip get?
Other ministers get advisers, their own personal ones, other departments have a whole slew of civil servants.
What does the Chief Whip get?

https://westernpeople.ie/2020/06/29/emotional-calleary-recounts-very-difficult-conversation-with-micheal-martin/#.XvnMDG1KjX4

He was interviewed on local radio this morning.

Very bad start for MM, the knives are out for him already in almost half the country and thats just FF supporters.

Seth Brundle

I'd say Leo and FG are delighted that FF have walked themselves into an internal dispute over who gets the top jobs

Bass Reeves

awec wrote: »

Don't know if it was already posted but read elsewhere that there is unhappiness in the FF ranks that Calleary got no ministerial position while Donnelly got Health.

Reckon Donnelly was promised a position in exchange for coming aboard?

Calleary is one of a number of FF TD's that cost the party seats. They polled too strong and did not split there vote with running mates add Niall Collins and O'Dea to this list in this election and the last one. Until FF start to be ruthless with these individuals who consider there constituency's as personnel fifedoms then they will always struggle to maximize there vote to seats ratio

maynooth_rules

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I'd say Leo and FG are delighted that FF have walked themselves into an internal dispute over who gets the top jobs

Particularly when it easily should have been FG in this position. Leo had to essentially sack half the cabinet, Martin has an open goal.
My guess is to prevent the sexism card, he picked Foley when he should have had Calleary

jmayo

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Particularly when it easily should have been FG in this position. Leo had to essentially sack half the cabinet, Martin has an open goal.
My guess is to prevent the sexism card, he picked Foley when he should have had Calleary

It might play well to the medja and on twitter, but it alienates a lot of grass roots and not just in Mayo.
The second in command, the guy a TD for 13 years including holding his seat in slaughter of 2011, the guy who was part of the negotiating team for the formation of government left out so that someone that is in the Dail for a few months gets the kick.

I guess it just shows Martin for the muppet he is.

Himself and Leo will make a great pair altogether.

Leonard Hofstadter

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Particularly when it easily should have been FG in this position. Leo had to essentially sack half the cabinet, Martin has an open goal.
My guess is to prevent the sexism card, he picked Foley when he should have had Calleary

He should have picked Rabbitte if that was his concern, would deal with the 'no Senior Minister West of the Shannon' issue straight away. It's even more surprising when she was one of the FF negotiators for the programme for Government.

Itssoeasy

jmayo wrote: »

So does your wan from Galway, but it still isn't the same.
Optics can mean a lot.

You can try spin any way you want, or any way that FG wants , it is a slap in the face for Calleary.

FFS he is the junior in Martin's department.

How much more humiliating than that can you get.

If Calleary has a backbone he will knife Martin first chance he gets.

BTW seen as you seem to be in the know, what departmental supports does Chief Whip get?
Other ministers get advisers, their own personal ones, other departments have a whole slew of civil servants.
What does the Chief Whip get?

Why would FG need to spin something that MM made a balls of. Watching Dara Calleary in the convention centre on Saturday evening, you could tell by the body language and head on him that he was pissed. I mean you'd have to wonder how a deputy leader of FF isn't a government minister. I don't normally feel sorry of politicians but even I felt sorry for him.

Coillte_Bhoy

[QUOTE=Bass Reeves;113884042]Calleary is one of a number of FF TD's that cost the party seats. They polled too strong and did not split there vote with running mates add Niall Collins and O'Dea to this list in this election and the last one. Until FF start to be ruthless with these individuals who consider there constituency's as personnel fifedoms then they will always struggle to maximize there vote to seats ratio[/QUOTE]

I dont agree, it would have taken a miracle for them to get 2 seats in Mayo on their FPF vote, no matter what vote management they had come up with

Quin_Dub

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Why would FG need to spin something that MM made a balls of. Watching Dara Calleary in the convention centre on Saturday evening, you could tell by the body language and head on him that he was pissed. I mean you'd have to wonder how a deputy leader of FF isn't a government minister. I don't normally feel sorry of politicians but even I felt sorry for him.

Equally though you have to wonder how an experienced politician and deputy leader of the party can't manage to keep internal party disagreements private?

Totally get his feelings of frustration etc. but he's just handed everyone a stick to be his party with..

blanch152

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

I dont agree, it would have taken a miracle for them to get 2 seats in Mayo on their FPF vote, no matter what vote management they had come up with

I have just had a look at the figures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayo_(D%C3%A1il_constituency)#2020_general_election

There were two candidates - Calleary(FF) and Dillon (FG) elected on the last count with Chambers (FF) losing out.

Combined, the two FF candidates had 22,547 votes. Divided equally, that would have given them 11,273 each. Dillon only had 10,977 votes.

It was a longshot but it would have been a lot closer had Calleary split the vote better, criticism of him is justified from that perspective.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

https://westernpeople.ie/2020/06/29/emotional-calleary-recounts-very-difficult-conversation-with-micheal-martin/#.XvnMDG1KjX4

He was interviewed on local radio this morning.

Very bad start for MM, the knives are out for him already in almost half the country and thats just FF supporters.

The "chief whip is going to be a big job in this government" talk sounds really patronising.

seligehgit

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

I dont agree, it would have taken a miracle for them to get 2 seats in Mayo on their FPF vote, no matter what vote management they had come up with

Totally agree.Lisa Chambers had more or less a free run in the a large portion of the county.Dara Calleary does not strike me as the sort of an individual who treats a constituency as his personal fiefdom.

I genuinely feel sorry for Dara Calleary.The deputy leader of the party is not seen worthy of a ministry,illogical in the extreme.He was worthy of a seat at cabinet when you look at the talent/lack of same in the Fianna Fail ranks.

Irrespective of the ideals that a senior minister serves the national interest the perception exists that the western seaboard has been treated with contempt in the cabinet selection.

An Ciarraioch

EPP backs Pascal Donohue to be Eurogroup president, which gives him a numerical edge over the Spanish Finance Minister:

https://twitter.com/EPP/status/1277644820614385666

Coillte_Bhoy

blanch152 wrote: »

I have just had a look at the figures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayo_(D%C3%A1il_constituency)#2020_general_election

There were two candidates - Calleary(FF) and Dillon (FG) elected on the last count with Chambers (FF) losing out.

Combined, the two FF candidates had 22,547 votes. Divided equally, that would have given them 11,273 each. Dillon only had 10,977 votes.

It was a longshot but it would have been a lot closer had Calleary split the vote better, criticism of him is justified from that perspective.

Combined they had 15.5k fpf, FG combined had 27.3k, im sorry but it was never happening. Chambers defeat was largely down to her losing a sizeable chunk of her own vote in the Castlebar area. Its easy to say in hindsight it was Calleary's fault but thats simply not the case

Water John

Being Chief Whip gives you real hands on with all the back benchers. A great position to build support if you have leadership ambitions.
Calleary by publicly sulking has done damage. The senior people in the party won't be thankful to him.

eagle eye

Seth Brundle wrote:

I'd say Leo and FG are delighted that FF have walked themselves into an internal dispute over who gets the top jobs

Why? They need years to recover from their disastrous last few years in government and their horrific approach early on to covid-19.
The parties not in government will grow if there's an early election.

Water John

Water John wrote: »

Being Chief Whip gives you real hands on with all the back benchers. A great position to build support if you have leadership ambitions.
Calleary by publicly sulking has done damage. The senior people in the party won't be thankful to him.

He’s absolutely blown it- once a western deputy takes a senior ministerial portfolio over the next year he’ll be dumped - a pathetic spoiled brat performance over last few days and from listening to him on radio and tv this evening I think he knows that now.

markodaly

If Lisa Chambers was elected she would probably be Minister for Education now. It was a big blow for FF not to have her on board.

il gatto

mariaalice wrote: »

Your faith in politicians and the decisions they make effecting investment and growth in an area is touching.

Things happen despite politicians not because of them, a good example would be when home workign becomes the norm for some individual or at least part home working it may help with reviewing rural decline, it evolved naturally as technology developed and has nothing to do with politicians.

No doubt you will still get politicians demanding a visit from the IDA and new roads because it goes down will with the local base.

Your attempt at condescension is appreciated. But my “faith” is based in actuality. TDs promise the earth and deliver nothing. Ministers get stuff done in their constituency. It shouldn’t work like that but it does. As someone who’s seen their area without a minister for 30 years, it’s abundantly clear how this negatively affects a region.

mariaalice

il gatto wrote: »

Your attempt at condescension is appreciated. But my “faith” is based in actuality. TDs promise the earth and deliver nothing. Ministers get stuff done in their constituency. It shouldn’t work like that but it does. As someone who’s seen their area without a minister for 30 years, it’s abundantly clear how this negatively affects a region.

I wasn't being condescended, I pointed out the reality of how little influence politicians and political decisions have ( not no influence ) in the modern interconnected world particularly absurd claims that they will halt rural decline.

seamus

eagle eye wrote: »

Why? They need years to recover from their disastrous last few years in government and their horrific approach early on to covid-19.
The parties not in government will grow if there's an early election.

FG?

If there had been an election called instead of a new government, FG would have walked away with it; probably with an overall majority.

That's why FF have gone into this seemingly conceding some of the top spots. FG have Tainaiste, Finance, Justice and Foreign Affairs.

FF need time now to lick their wounds, see the economy come back to normal, repair their reputation and hope that some of the shine will be gone from FG in the meantime.

eagle eye

seamus wrote:

FG?
If there had been an election called instead of a new government, FG would have walked away with it; probably with an overall majority.

I know there are some Irish people that are stupid but the last election showed where FG were at.
Since then they let people off to Cheltenham, let skiers come home and not have to self-isolate, let in Italian rugby fans even though there was no match.
How on earth anybody would think they'd improve their position is beyond me unless you think Irish people are really stupid?

seamus wrote:

That's why FF have gone into this seemingly conceding some of the top spots. FG have Tainaiste, Finance, Justice and Foreign Affairs.

It's not like FF are a huge party. They are not winning, neither are FG, it's the Greens who are winning sadly.

seamus wrote:

FF need time now to lick their wounds, see the economy come back to normal, repair their reputation and hope that some of the shine will be gone from FG in the meantime.

FF need Martin gone and they'll probably stay ahead of FG.

guyfawkes5

seamus wrote: »

If there had been an election called instead of a new government, FG would have walked away with it; probably with an overall majority.

That's extremely far from certain. FG also led in polls prior to the election, almost certainly due to their handling of Brexit. Once the election started, voters started to think of who they wanted to shape the country for the next five years and FG's lead fell away.

We don't know how the 'green jersey' effect we're seeing right now would pan out in a post-crisis election.

Roanmore

guyfawkes5 wrote: »

That's extremely far from certain. FG also led in polls prior to the election, almost certainly due to their handling of Brexit. Once the election started, voters started to think of who they wanted to shape the country for the next five years and FG's lead fell away.

We don't know how the 'green jersey' effect we're seeing right now would pan out in a post-crisis election.

They were falling before the election, ever since the RIC commemoration debacle when SF successfully portrayed it as a Black and Tans commemoration. SFs numbers went up after that.

seamus

eagle eye wrote: »

How on earth anybody would think they'd improve their position is beyond me unless you think Irish people are really stupid?

The only data we have right now is an opinion poll on 20th June that gave Varadkar a 75% approval rating and FG 35% of the vote.

These things do drift in an election, but Martin would have been looking at that data and realising the strong position that FG were in. Even if an election were called, it would be very difficult for any party to justify going on the attack against FG in the morning and then in the evening standing up and repeating the government advice about Coronavirus.

Water John

The RIC debacle by Flanagan created a visceral gut reaction that some FG people just didn't see coming or indeed what was wrong with it.
It was a turning point.

Sam Russell

Water John wrote: »

The RIC debacle by Flanagan created a visceral gut reaction that some FG people just didn't see coming or indeed what was wrong with it.
It was a turning point.

I think you have it exactly.

Suddenly the old blue shirt became visible for all as the mask sliped.

The Brexit handling was brilliant, but suddenly we could see the real FG.

Shudder.

beggars_bush

Hope everyone saw the footage of SF leadership at a funeral for an IRA person in west Belfast

Surely Mary Lou should not be travelling to the north?

Sam Russell

beggars_bush wrote: »

Hope everyone saw the footage of SF leadership at a funeral for an IRA person in west Belfast

Surely Mary Lou should not be travelling to the north?

She has to follow orders.

il gatto

mariaalice wrote: »

I wasn't being condescended, I pointed out the reality of how little influence politicians and political decisions have ( not no influence ) in the modern interconnected world particularly absurd claims that they will halt rural decline.

Then I’m afraid your naivety is touching. How it’s supposed to work (funds allocated due to need and potential upside) as opposed to how it actually works (Castlebar tennis club having an all weather dome and Stepaside Garda Station reopening) are very different things. This country is totally run on pork barrel politics and areas without ministerial clout get the scraps.

elperello

beggars_bush wrote: »

Hope everyone saw the footage of SF leadership at a funeral for an IRA person in west Belfast

Surely Mary Lou should not be travelling to the north?

Sam Russell wrote: »

She has to follow orders.

I don't see why she wouldn't travel to the North after all they are an all - Ireland party.

Peregrinus

il gatto wrote: »

Then I’m afraid your naivety is touching. How it’s supposed to work (funds allocated due to need and potential upside) as opposed to how it actually works (Castlebar tennis club having an all weather dome and Stepaside Garda Station reopening) are very different things. This country is totally run on pork barrel politics and areas without ministerial clout get the scraps.

Yes, but whether having an all-weather dome or a a reopened garda station in Stepaside make any difference at all to the long-term health, happiness, welfare, prosperity and success of the citizens of Mayo or Dublin South is open to question. Ministers distribute baubles like these and voters value them, but they would be fools to think that these are the decisions that matter.

mariaalice

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes, but whether having an all-weather dome or a a reopened garda station in Stepaside make any difference at all to the long-term health, happiness, welfare, prosperity and success of the citizens of Mayo or Dublin South is open to question. Ministers distribute baubles like these and voters value them, but they would be fools to think that these are the decisions that matter.

The politician themselves like to think the constitutions will reward them for the babuals. The days of the fat chief politician are dying off due to the education levels of most of the population. The media love to whip it up a bit though.

The media always seem to be behind the curve on cultural change in rural Ireland.

beggars_bush

elperello wrote: »

I don't see why she wouldn't travel to the North after all they are an all - Ireland party.

Foreign travel isn't advised

Peregrinus

beggars_bush wrote: »

Foreign travel isn't advised

Overseas travel isn't advised. The advice explicitly states that this applies to Great Britain, but does not apply to Northern Ireland.

Hermy

elperello wrote: »

I don't see why she wouldn't travel to the North after all they are an all - Ireland party.

Perhaps it's the event rather than the location that's the issue.