Irish potato famine - Irish were really this hated??

Graces7

Acutally the real disease was the Catholic Church and its designs on Ireland . They were far more clever than the brits and far more dangerous as they took over education and health care and made the people scared of hellfire.

There was a parallel in Canada, when all 3 churches conspired together to rob the Inuits and First nation people of their land Google "Canadian Holocaust Kevin Annett"
He was a minister who outed the abuse and got thrown out . Upwards of 1/4 million children were killed. That too was genocide,

In Ireland it was genocide of the poorest sector of the population, very carefully defined.

Johnnydoe89 wrote: »

Famine my hole.. Genocide more fits the bill. The only disease we had in this country was the ****ing brits

partyguinness

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Why didnt the catholic church save the starving? Isnt that what they are supposed to do.....help the needy?

The CC as an institution is only interested in one thing only and that is consolidating and exercising power and control in the name of God.

Graces7

Neither statement has any foundation in truth! When eg Quakers came to the starving villages with soup, priests forbade the people to eat it on pain of excommunication

They did not help any needy,

Fritzbox wrote: »

Why should they - Irish Catholics didn't own much of their own country at that time.

But ultimately they did help the needy - it would hardly have been enough though.

Fritzbox

Graces7 wrote: »

Neither statement has any foundation in truth! When eg Quakers came to the starving villages with soup, priests forbade the people to eat it on pain of excommunication

I doubt if that is very true Grace. Have you a source for that?

Hoboo

Graces7 wrote: »

They were far more clever than the brits and far more dangerous as they took over education and health care

Took over? From who? Surely provided/founded would be more accurate?

Graces7

That is not true. They took over the provision of almost all education and hospitals and all but ruled ireland and made up the largest ratio of the population.

Fritzbox wrote: »

I doubt that very much. The actual number of Catholics in Ireland was halved between 1841 and 1921 - the Church of Rome became much weaker in Ireland during that period.

Graces7

I meant took over the provision of! Sorry; been a long day. There were eg hedge schools etc.

They did a mighty work with great efficiency. As some are saying now that in spite of the abuse, when the nuns ran the hospitals they were clean and well run

Hoboo wrote: »

Took over? From who? Surely provided/founded would be more accurate?

Boredstiff666

Fritzbox wrote: »

Why should they - Irish Catholics didn't own much of their own country at that time.

But ultimately they did help the needy - it would hardly have been enough though.

The wealthiest church in the world by far stocked to the hilt with stolen Aztec gold and weekly subs from poor folk who cant afford it.

They could have fed the starving of Ireland with prime rib steak every day if they wanted.

No priest starved to death in the Famine.

Graces7

Fritzbox wrote: »

I doubt if that is very true Grace. Have you a source for that?

Sadly true and recorded in many sources;

They were adamant that no one would be taken by any other church

There was a phrase they used as an accusation, " Taking the soup". google that as I just did and there are abundant sources. It was appalling.

The Quakers were just as adamant to feed people so they were worthy opponents! And on occasion the Church took advantage of that to avoid spending on the poor..

On some occasions, well recorded, the Quakers were forced to throw the food away as the priest forbade the folk to eat it.

Boredstiff666

partyguinness wrote: »

The CC as an institution is only interested in one thing only and that is consolidating and exercising power and control in the name of God.

Two things actually. ........and you cant blame the English for that either.:eek::eek:

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Fritzbox wrote: »

I doubt if that is very true Grace. Have you a source for that?

Somebody was obviously taking the aid provided by the Quakers, as just under 8,000 tons of food were distributed along with almost 300 soup boilers and nearly 80 tons of seed. Thousand of people were given employment by the Quakers in agriculture, fisheries and industry and many more were taught how to grow crops which had previously been unfamiliar to them.

Visit Letterfrack to see the schools they set up for the local children.

Historian Fr. Anthony Gaughan tells of how the Presentation Sisters, at their convent in Listowel, fed the starving people of North Kerry during the 1840s thanks to 'famine-pots', supplies and advice from the Quaker community.

Boredstiff666

Graces7 wrote: »

Sadly true and recorded in many sources;

They were adamant that no one would be taken by any other church

There was a phrase they used as an accusation, " Taking the soup". google that as I just did and there are abundant sources. It was appalling.

The Quakers were just as adamant to feed people so they were worthy opponents! And on occasion the Church took advantage of that to avoid spending on the poor..

On some occasions, well recorded, the Quakers were forced to throw the food away as the priest forbade the folk to eat it.

Its on Wiki....souperism.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Its on Wiki....souperism.

And to be perfectly clear it did NOT refer to the Quakers

and the Quakers, whose soup kitchens were concerned solely with charitable work, were never associated with the practice (which causes them to be held in high regard in Ireland even today, with many Irish remembering the Quakers with the remark "They fed us in the famine.

It was a Church of Ireland and Bible Societies practice to offer relief in exchange for conversion. A despicable practice really.

Graces7

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Its on Wiki....souperism.

Yep!

Meant to say this sooner.

When I first came to Ireland, I was commissioned to write a book on the church ie RC in Ireland at the start of the new millennium. Work I am very well qualified academically to do .

I was living in a lovely Catholic parish; very welcoming,, And I had contacts for the work in many places, local, national etc, and we have access to the Vatican library of course.

I lived near one of the famine graveyards and spent hours there and started going further back in the history of it all

Work was going well and then the child abuse scandal broke. No one had had any idea and my nearest neighbours has a sister who was a Mercy nun.

The shockwaves. We all thought the Goldenbridge episode was all there was.. then the floodgates opened and have stayed open since.

Next month the final govt report on the Mother and Baby homes will be out and it will shock all over again.

and I started connecting back to the famine. Hoping to find some glimmer of light. Some ….well, reason.

Again I had contacts, others who were as concerned as I was. I visited many places in connection, spoke with many fine Catholics living their faith, many too who had left the church, long talks with nuns eg Poor Clares who had never been involved/

In the end, all the hard things are true and as shocking as has been discussed here. the deliberate eradication, endorsed by Rome, of an entire section of Irish society. The establishing of almost all education etc here. And the double standards that emerged after the abuse scandals broke. In any town the children with families had an excellent education, strict but good, while outside the town as in Goldenbridge, an orphanage where abuse of orphaned children was happening.
That was the pattern. to incarcerate those who did not conform. Unmarried mothers, orphans …
I visited graveyards, row upon row of little ones, eg a small town in Connemara near Kylemore Abbey called Letterfrack where the Christian Brothers had an Industrial school, ie boys detention centre, in an old Quaker schoolhouse... Nearly 100 small graves, 6 years upwards, boys sent there for committing crimes. Deep in a forest, hidden but now adopted by the townfolk

I abandoned the book. It was all too dark, but first I explored to see if it was all as black as it seemed, and it was.

And we can only progress if we look at the darkness and see it for what it is

and the famine years and the aftermath are the darkest of times. Totally avoidable. No need for any deaths for lack of basic food. Politically motivated and carried out. As was the taking over of large parts of Irish society and the abuse that ensued.

Through darkness into light? Only if we admit to the darkness with no bitterness and with shame and regret

bo0li5eumx12kp

Graces7 wrote: »

Yep!

Meant to say this sooner.

When I first came to Ireland, I was commissioned to write a book on the church ie RC in Ireland at the start of the new millennium. Work I am very well qualified academically to do .

I was living in a lovely Catholic parish; very welcoming,, And I had contacts for the work in many places, local, national etc, and we have access to the Vatican library of course.

I lived near one of the famine graveyards and spent hours there and started going further back in the history of it all

Work was going well and then the child abuse scandal broke. No one had had any idea and my nearest neighbours has a sister who was a Mercy nun.

The shockwaves. We all thought the Goldenbridge episode was all there was.. then the floodgates opened and have stayed open since.

Next month the final govt report on the Mother and Baby homes will be out and it will shock all over again.

and I started connecting back to the famine. Hoping to find some glimmer of light. Some ….well, reason.

Again I had contacts, others who were as concerned as I was. I visited many places in connection, spoke with many fine Catholics living their faith, many too who had left the church, long talks with nuns eg Poor Clares who had never been involved/

In the end, all the hard things are true and as shocking as has been discussed here. the deliberate eradication, endorsed by Rome, of an entire section of Irish society. The establishing of almost all education etc here. And the double standards that emerged after the abuse scandals broke. In any town the children with families had an excellent education, strict but good, while outside the town as in Goldenbridge, an orphanage where abuse of orphaned children was happening.
That was the pattern. to incarcerate those who did not conform. Unmarried mothers, orphans …
I visited graveyards, row upon row of little ones, eg a small town in Connemara near Kylemore Abbey called Letterfrack where the Christian Brothers had an Industrial school, ie boys detention centre, in an old Quaker schoolhouse... Nearly 100 small graves, 6 years upwards, boys sent there for committing crimes. Deep in a forest, hidden but now adopted by the townfolk

I abandoned the book. It was all too dark, but first I explored to see if it was all as black as it seemed, and it was.

And we can only progress if we look at the darkness and see it for what it is

and the famine years and the aftermath are the darkest of times. Totally avoidable. No need for any deaths for lack of basic food. Politically motivated and carried out. As was the taking over of large parts of Irish society and the abuse that ensued.

Through darkness into light? Only if we admit to the darkness with no bitterness and with shame and regret

1st - what is your academic background, and your current employment/day job?
Are you at liberty to say?

2nd - in a nutshell, you contention as to the genuine instigators of the Irish famine; British elitists, or religious orders? A little of both?

Truth is stranger than fiction, and you paint a picture of horrific depravity.
Makes me wanna go all norwegian-death-metal on some churches, but then of course that might compromise my long term aim to have them collectively converted into a series of youth hostels and large scale bordellos.

bo0li5eumx12kp

Browsing some citations, certainly in terms of hindering relief efforts - it seems this motherless f$$k is the individual of the moment;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Charles_Trevelyan,_1st_Baronet

Trevelyan's most enduring mark on history may be the "quasi" genocidal anti-Irish racial sentiment he expressed during his term in the critical position of administrating relief for the millions of Irish peasants suffering under the potato blight as Assistant Secretary to HM Treasury (1840–1859) under the Whig administration of Lord Russell.[2]

He also wrote highly disparaging remarks about the Irish in a letter to an Irish peer[4], stating that that "the judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson".

Many members of the British upper and middle classes believed that the famine was a divine judgment—an act of Providence. A leading exponent of the providentialist perspective was Trevelyan, who was chiefly responsible for administering Irish relief policy throughout the famine years. In his book The Irish Crisis, published in 1848, Trevelyan later described the famine as "a direct stroke of an all-wise and all-merciful Providence", one which laid bare "the deep and inveterate root of social evil". The famine, he declared, was "the sharp but effectual remedy by which the cure is likely to be effected... God grant that the generation to which this great opportunity has been offered may rightly perform its part ..." This mentality of Trevelyan's was influential in persuading the government to do nothing to restrain mass evictions.

It is important to note that the large crops of oats and grain were not affected, and if those crops had been distributed to the Irish people rather than exported, mass starvation could have been avoided


Trevelyan wrote to Lord Monteagle of Brandon, a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the famine was an "effective mechanism for reducing surplus population", and was "the judgement of God". Further he wrote that "The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people


https://journals.openedition.org/rfcb/281

Further, I have called it an artificial famine: that is to say, it was a famine which desolated a rich and fertile island, that produced every year abundance and superabundance to sustain all her people and many more. The English, indeed, call that famine a “dispensation of Providence;” and ascribe it entirely to the blight of the potatoes. But potatoes failed in like manner all over Europe; yet there was no famine save in Ireland. The British account of the matter, then, is first, a fraud – second, a blasphemy. The Almighty, indeed, sent the potato blight, but the English created the famine

So basically - food exports continuing under protection of Royal guard was sanctioned directly from London, with the intent to starve the hands that produced it.

Whig policy was directed at getting the peasants off the land, and if it took mass death to achieve that objective, so be it’


I have no references for Irish priests pulling these stunts.

All fingers firmly point to London as to the implementation of these policies with the outcome being, intentional starvation of the Irish peasant class.

Graces7

Irish blame the English all the time..

Look up Paul Cardinal Cullen. I cannot give you access to Vatican Library documents but trust in this that it was the Catholic Church who gained most from the multi agency engendered famine and they all supported each other when they had things to gain.

But the Church was the main source; look at they way they took over education and health care and controlled through fear.

Of course the Brits waded in as well.. but it was " religion" within the country that held most sway


QUOTE=Paulina Fat Manganese;112340332]Browsing some citations, certainly in terms of hindering relief efforts - it seems this motherless f$$k is the individual of the moment;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Charles_Trevelyan,_1st_Baronet

Trevelyan's most enduring mark on history may be the "quasi" genocidal anti-Irish racial sentiment he expressed during his term in the critical position of administrating relief for the millions of Irish peasants suffering under the potato blight as Assistant Secretary to HM Treasury (1840–1859) under the Whig administration of Lord Russell.[2]

He also wrote highly disparaging remarks about the Irish in a letter to an Irish peer[4], stating that that "the judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson".

Many members of the British upper and middle classes believed that the famine was a divine judgment—an act of Providence. A leading exponent of the providentialist perspective was Trevelyan, who was chiefly responsible for administering Irish relief policy throughout the famine years. In his book The Irish Crisis, published in 1848, Trevelyan later described the famine as "a direct stroke of an all-wise and all-merciful Providence", one which laid bare "the deep and inveterate root of social evil". The famine, he declared, was "the sharp but effectual remedy by which the cure is likely to be effected... God grant that the generation to which this great opportunity has been offered may rightly perform its part ..." This mentality of Trevelyan's was influential in persuading the government to do nothing to restrain mass evictions.

It is important to note that the large crops of oats and grain were not affected, and if those crops had been distributed to the Irish people rather than exported, mass starvation could have been avoided


Trevelyan wrote to Lord Monteagle of Brandon, a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the famine was an "effective mechanism for reducing surplus population", and was "the judgement of God". Further he wrote that "The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people


https://journals.openedition.org/rfcb/281

Further, I have called it an artificial famine: that is to say, it was a famine which desolated a rich and fertile island, that produced every year abundance and superabundance to sustain all her people and many more. The English, indeed, call that famine a “dispensation of Providence;” and ascribe it entirely to the blight of the potatoes. But potatoes failed in like manner all over Europe; yet there was no famine save in Ireland. The British account of the matter, then, is first, a fraud – second, a blasphemy. The Almighty, indeed, sent the potato blight, but the English created the famine

So basically - food exports continuing under protection of Royal guard was sanctioned directly from London, with the intent to starve the hands that produced it.

Whig policy was directed at getting the peasants off the land, and if it took mass death to achieve that objective, so be it’


I have no references for Irish priests pulling these stunts.

All fingers firmly point to London as to the implementation of these policies with the outcome being, intentional starvation of the Irish peasant class.[/QUOTE]

Graces7

Look at motivation? Who had the most to gain given their area of reference? Directly?

Look at who took intimate control over the daily lives of Irish people? Education, health care, punishment?

Look at the endemic child abuse and the mother and baby homes etc.

Sure they piggybacked on the political and military power. But their guilt is the greater. And their influence all the greater.

Paulina Fat Manganese wrote: »

1st - what is your academic background, and your current employment/day job?
Are you at liberty to say?

2nd - in a nutshell, you contention as to the genuine instigators of the Irish famine; British elitists, or religious orders? A little of both?

Truth is stranger than fiction, and you paint a picture of horrific depravity.
Makes me wanna go all norwegian-death-metal on some churches, but then of course that might compromise my long term aim to have them collectively converted into a series of youth hostels and large scale bordellos.

bo0li5eumx12kp

Maybe a summation of my viewpoint on the famine at this time would be, "a calculated and insidiously implemented ethnic cleansing".

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

Irish blame the English all the time..

aah, that's not strictly true.

An old man in Rome was responsible for the Magdalene Laundries and the cover up of child abuse and "German Bond Holders" were responsible for bankrupting the country.

Boredstiff666

Paulina Fat Manganese wrote: »

Maybe a summation of my viewpoint on the famine at this time would be, "a calculated and insidiously implemented ethnic cleansing".

No that was done after 1916 when the good righteous catholics burnt any other out of there homes and forced them to leave.

Fritzbox

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

No that was done after 1916 when the good righteous catholics burnt any other out of there homes and forced them to leave. Including those of mixed marriages.

Don't talk nonsense. Read a history book instead.

Fritzbox

Paulina Fat Manganese wrote: »

"a calculated and insidiously implemented ethnic cleansing".

Maybe that was not the intention, but essentially what happened.

The real and fully intentional ethnic cleansing in Ireland were of course the plantations of Ulster and other parts of Ireland in the 16th and 17th centuries.

The conspiracy theories buzzing around this topic are a classic example of the proverb: 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.'

partyguinness

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

No that was done after 1916 when the good righteous catholics burnt any other out of there homes and forced them to leave. Including those of mixed marriages.

Now you are just trolling. There were a handful (and no more) of isolated examples where a few locals took matters into their own hands to make the lives of a few Protestant families difficult.

To suggest that it was some sort of widespread systematic policy of ethnic cleansing is just trolling and downright insulting in the context of the Famine- then again maybe that is your aim.

Boredstiff666

partyguinness wrote: »

Now you are just trolling. There were a handful (and no more) of isolated examples where a few locals took matters into their own hands to make the lives of a few Protestant families difficult.

To suggest that it was some sort of widespread systematic policy of ethnic cleansing is just trolling and downright insulting in the context of the Famine- then again maybe that is your aim.

No I even knew people of mixed religions who were together but said they had to move away because them being together wasnt accepted by local folk. This was in 40's/50's.

Was it an accident a lot of other churches than catholic ones fell into disrepair over the years?

How many other people do you see in a catholic graveyard? Even people washed up at sea were planted in other graveyards. Was this because their religion wasnt established?

partyguinness

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

No I even knew people of mixed religions who were together but said they had to move away because them being together wasnt accepted by local folk. This was in 40's/50's.

Was it an accident accident a lot of other churches than catholic ones fell into disrepair over the years?

How many other people do you see in a catholic graveyard? Even people washed up at sea were planted in other graveyards. Was this because their religion wasnt established?

You are mixing up several different issues here.

Yes as I said there isolated instances where local Protestants were made feel uncomfortable. Some decided to relocate.

You must remember that the Protestant population in the 'South' was very very small to begin although they had disproportionate land and wealth given to them over the centuries. I being polite- stolen and handed to them to allow them extract rent from the natives. Not overly surprising that a few natives decided a little pay back was in order in the years following re independence.

Protestant Churches falling into disrepair? You need to put that to the Church of Ireland.

So the Catholic Chruch only wanted Catholics in its graveyards...well that's hardly a shock.

Fritzbox

Boredstiff666 wrote: »

Was it an accident a lot of other churches than catholic ones fell into disrepair over the years?

Dublin's Christ Church Cathedral looked fine to me last time I saw it.

partyguinness

Fritzbox wrote: »

Dublin's Christ Church Cathedral looked fine to me last time I saw it.

I wonder will they hand it back?:D

Fritzbox

partyguinness wrote: »

I wonder will they hand it back?:D

Naah, to be fair it's been in very good hands these last 480 years - as has St. Pat's...;)

Snickers Man

vicwatson wrote: »

Read the words “potato famine”

So much wrong with that

Unfollowed

Yeah. Quite right.

WE don't call it the "Potato" Famine. We call it the Great Famine, the Great Hunger or simply The Famine.

It wasn't the potato's fault!!

Snickers Man

DrumSteve wrote: »

Still would though.

Dude! You're Sick!!! :eek::eek::eek:

Snickers Man

Fritzbox wrote: »

I doubt that very much. The actual number of Catholics people in Ireland was halved between 1841 and 19211911 - the Church of Rome became much weaker in Ireland during that period.

Don't know where you got 1921 from. There was supposed to be a census taken that year but it never was because of the, er, disturbances taking place at the time.

But the halving of the Irish population, or at least the population in the area now comprising the republic is a matter of verifiable record. Just look at the historical census data on the CSO website.

Fritzbox

Snickers Man wrote: »

Yeah. Quite right.

WE don't call it the "Potato" Famine. We call it the Great Famine, the Great Hunger or simply The Famine.

It wasn't the potato's fault!!

Googling the expression "Potato Famine" provides me with 4,490,000 different web sites - somebody calls it the potato famine.

I guess it's alright to use it in most non-academic circumstances.

Fritzbox

Snickers Man wrote: »

Don't know where you got 1921 from. There was supposed to be a census taken that year but it never was because of the, er, disturbances taking place at the time.

But the halving of the Irish population, or at least the population in the area now comprising the republic is a matter of verifiable record. Just look at the historical census data on the CSO website.

What are you trying to do - editing other people's posts - do you not think this is just a bit arrogant and offensive of you.

When I quoted the population figures for Irish catholics - I certainly meant it to mean the population figures for the Irish catholic population - why did you feel you had to change it for me?

I am also well aware that the population of the other denominations today is much reduced from that normally quoted for 1841.

Snickers Man

Fritzbox wrote: »

What are you trying to do - editing other people's posts - do you not think this is just a bit arrogant and offensive of you.

When I quoted the population figures for Irish catholics - I certainly meant it to mean the population figures for the Irish catholic population - why did you feel you had to change it for me?

.

Accuracy.

And I didn't "Edit your post" I replied to it. Your original post is intact.

Ash.J.Williams

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Now now don’t be upsetting all the superior beings. Where would we be if they couldn’t show is how much better they are?

The biggest lingering issue with Britain is that they have never faced up to their many many wrongs all over the world. Most other civilised nations have done it whereas they’d do it to us all again if they could because the empire mentality is still being ingrained.

The bigger country don’t have to, they barely know we exist. Same all over the world. NZ bang on about Australia all the time, Aussies don’t give a ****

Ash.J.Williams

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

The bigger country don’t have to, they barely know we exist. Same all over the world. NZ bang on about Australia all the time, Aussies don’t give a ****

That reply had absolutely zero to do with what you are replying to. Did you just want to say it and it was the closest you could get?