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People like SF candidates but won't vote for SF
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facehugger99 wrote: »Frequently, I'd imagine.
I do get it wrong sometimes
Well in other SF news, actress Fionnula Flanagan helped launch Sinn Féin's election candidates0 -
Where are the numbers, has each policy position been argued fully with the appropriate published costings, and if not why should anyone expect me to vote for them on such an issue
Figures in this article about 2/3 the way down, covers pensions aswell as the headline info. It's a good read overall however.0 -
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I think you might have posted a wrong link
Nothing mentioned there about pensionable age increase, or associated costs nor indeed any statistics
Read the article in full before you comment. It's all in there and fully costed by the department of finance.”
Sinn Féin’s proposal to abolish the USC for the first €30,000 of salary would cost €1.2 billion while ensuring that everyone has the right to retire at 65 would cost €368 million, the party says. Increasing the State pension by €20 a week would cost €750 million.
Abolishing the property tax would cost €485 million and cutting the 5 per cent insurance premium levy would cost €330 million.
Mr Doherty insisted that their proposals were absolutely affordable as there was a €1.4 billion surplus and their measures had been fully costed by the Department of Finance.0 -
How do you think it is being paid for at the moment?
All those people currently forced to retire at 65 are now drawing dole for a few years until they get a pension.
Did I miss something or is someone else or another country paying dole payments in this country?
You don't know that being on the dole isn't a mandatory obligation?
Like it or not, with increasing life expectancy, we will be working longer and pension costs cannot be sustained. It's not just in this country but across Europe. Witness the protests in France.0 -
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Read the article in full before you comment. It's all in there and fully costed by the department of finance.
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Sinn Féin pledges to cut salaries of TDs and Ministers if elected
Doherty defends party policy on pensions after members retire with pots of up to €1.72m
Finance spokesman Pearse Doherty at Sinn Féin’s general election candidate launch in the Mansion House, Dublin, on Monday. Photograph: Gareth Chaney/Collins
Finance spokesman Pearse Doherty at Sinn Féin’s general election candidate launch in the Mansion House, Dublin, on Monday. Photograph: Gareth Chaney/Collins
Marie O'Halloran
Updated: Wed, Jan 22, 2020, 18:50
Sinn Féin has defended its approach to pensions as it emerged that four of its TDs will retire from the Dáil with pension pots varying from €495,000 to €1.72 million.
Finance spokesman Pearse Doherty insisted that his party would reduce the salaries of TDs and ministers and the pensions that would be available to them on retirement.
Mr Doherty said the party would prevent TDs drawing pensions early, “that people should only be able to receive their pensions at full retirement age”.
Other parties did not support its initiative because “they are not there for ordinary working people”, he claimed.
“They voted to increase the pension age for ordinary workers while allowing a section of TDs to draw down full pensions at the age of 50.”
He said his party had gifted money back to the State in the past. “We haven’t accepted any of the increases that we’ve seen over the last number of years.”
Mr Doherty added that he had also given back about €9,000 to the State, something he had not previously made public.
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He was responding to the revelations of substantial pension pots of retiring TDs including the party’s four deputies who are not running for re-election and who will receive annual pensions ranging from €26,000-€46,000 a year and lump sums of €63,000-€140,000.
Mr Doherty was asked about his party colleagues’ pensions as he launched a series of proposals worth more than €3 billion to put money back in workers’ pockets, including a pledge to bring the retirement age back to 65; to increase the State pension by €20 over a government term; end USC payments for the first €30,000 of all incomes; abolish the property tax and the 5 per cent levy imposed on every insurance policy premium which he described as “immoral”.
Pension pot
A report by the Irish Independent showed that Sinn Féin’s longest-serving TD Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin retires with a pension pot of €1.726 million and annual payment of €46,800 while former leader Gerry Adams will receive €21,060 annually. Kerry TD Martin Ferris retires with €42,120 annually while Cork TD Jonathan O’Brien will receive €21,060 a year.
Former taoiseach Enda Kenny has the largest pension pot of €3.25 million and an annual pension of €46,800.
Former minister for finance Michael Noonan and former ceann comhairle Seán Barrett will also receive €46,800 annually. Former minister of state Dara Murphy receive a lump sum of €63,00 and annual payment of €21,060.
Minister of State Finian McGrath retires on €42,120 a year, Labour’s Willie Penrose will receive €46,800 annually and one-term Independent TD Dr Michael Harty will receive €9,360 a year.
Mr Doherty said of the pension revelations that “this is the system that currently exists”. The first piece of legislation he introduced as a TD was to cut the pay for TDs, ministers and officeholders, he added.
“And Sinn Féin are committed to do that if we get into government.”
Sinn Féin’s proposal to abolish the USC for the first €30,000 of salary would cost €1.2 billion while ensuring that everyone has the right to retire at 65 would cost €368 million, the party says. Increasing the State pension by €20 a week would cost €750 million.
Abolishing the property tax would cost €485 million and cutting the 5 per cent insurance premium levy would cost €330 million.
Mr Doherty insisted that their proposals were absolutely affordable as there was a €1.4 billion surplus and their measures had been fully costed by the Department of Finance.
Ha Ha, now I know who the FG village idiot is.
Do you realise how stupid you have just made yourself look. Probably not you might have to think.
I was not supporting any party, I was actually questioning whether SF could afford to keep the pensionable age set at 65 among other things.
I was asking for facts, if they exist, but apparently you are happy to ignore any that might be at all relevant, even if they might be of benefit to you
Had you been any way intelligent, because obviously you are far from it, you might have sought them too.
It's people like you that has got me seriously thinking of giving SF a 1st preference vote. I am slowly coming to the conclusion that FG have just become a soundbite and wise crack party. Every time they are asked a serious question in the media its a soundbite carefully crafted by headquarters to be meaningless, or it's idiotic attacks on the opposition because it all their fault despite them not being in government.
Carry on, you have done you party no service whatsoever, I'm sure they will be very pleased with your little performance. That might even qualify you as a future FG minister.0 -
Ha Ha, now I know who the FG village idiot is.
Do you realise how stupid you have just made yourself look. Probably not you might have to think.
I was not supporting any party, I was actually questioning whether SF could afford to keep the pensionable age set at 65 among other things.
I was asking for facts, if they exist, but apparently you are happy to ignore any that might be at all relevant, even if they might be of benefit to you
Had you been any way intelligent, because obviously you are far from it, you might have sought them too.
It's people like you that has got me seriously thinking of giving SF a 1st preference vote. I am slowly coming to the conclusion that FG have just become a soundbite and wise crack party. Every time they are asked a serious question in the media its a soundbite carefully crafted by headquarters to be meaningless, or it's idiotic attacks on the opposition because it all their fault despite them not being in government.
Carry on, you have done you party no service whatsoever, I'm sure they will be very pleased with your little performance. That might even qualify you as a future FG minister.
https://web.actuaries.ie/sites/default/files/2018-05/Measuring%20the%20cost%20of%20the%20State%E2%80%99s%20pension%20promises.pdf
According to this presentation, which assumes we increase to 67 in 2021, the "the excess of expenditure over income of the Fund will increase significantly over the medium to long term. The modest 2020 projected shortfall of €0.2 billion is expected to increase to €3.3 billion by 2030 and to €22.2 billion by 2071"
So, we can take the Sinn Fein approach and pretend everything is fine, but that only increases the long-term problems.0 -
facehugger99 wrote: »Yes, it would be "so bad".
It's the equivalent of burning down your house because you don't like the colour your kitchen's been painted.
SF are state-subversives. They do not believe in the legitimacy of our country and will attempt to undermine its democratic freedoms if they're let anywhere near the levers of power.
Mary Lou's getting fed her lines by shadowy murderers up in NI.
Do you really want people like that having a say in our justice system or policing?
I have no love for FF or FG, but this line of reasoning, that because they're so crap we should just hand SF the keys to the State is dangerous in the extreme.
I won't even go into the lunacy of their economic policies because it's really beside the point.
Oh FFS!!! :rolleyes:0 -
In fairness there is a million reports on pension funding produced by the civil service and assorted economic think-thanks.As normal the electorate are expected to agree to something without being given a clear, point by point case, with clear costings of the varying scenarios. Once that information was published surely we the electorate should be allowed to decide which is the best course of action.
We live in a representative democracy, we elect people on our behalf to read those million reports and make decisions on our behalf. You can choose to read all those reports yourself if you wish, or like most you can choose to elect politicians who you feel best represent your interests.
If you want to elect politicians who will choose what they think is the best populist soundbite without caring what the reports say, you have lots of choice.0 -
https://web.actuaries.ie/sites/default/files/2018-05/Measuring%20the%20cost%20of%20the%20State%E2%80%99s%20pension%20promises.pdf
According to this presentation, which assumes we increase to 67 in 2021, the "the excess of expenditure over income of the Fund will increase significantly over the medium to long term. The modest 2020 projected shortfall of €0.2 billion is expected to increase to €3.3 billion by 2030 and to €22.2 billion by 2071"
So, we can take the Sinn Fein approach and pretend everything is fine, but that only increases the long-term problems.
thanks very much Blanch152. Much appreciated.
A sensible reply for a change.
Now for much reading but it will be worth it to get a real grasp of the situation.0 -
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In fairness there is a million reports on pension funding produced by the civil service and assorted economic think-thanks.
We live in a representative democracy, we elect people on our behalf to read those million reports and make decisions on our behalf. You can choose to read all those reports yourself if you wish, or like most you can choose to elect politicians who you feel best represent your interests.
If you want to elect politicians who will choose what they think is the best populist soundbite without caring what the reports say, you have lots of choice.
Sound all very good in theory. But in practice it just is not working.
I cant abide people or politicians that tell you they are going to do one thing for you and then it turns out they do something totally different.
If you cant tell the truth, and be honest about a problem, then as far as I am concerned its better to say nothing. If you cant do a job then step aside there's others that can.
There was a time when we had politicians that were brutally frank, sometime to much so, but they were respected because they were not worried about sounding good in the media, or how many likes they got on ar$ebook.
Its a shame that too many TD's and ministers (and I include all parties here) are more concerned about the likes than actually delivering as best as possible what was promised.
Would I vote for a TD that get more likes in social media or would I vote for the guy that delivered or that I saw did everything he could to deliver? I think the answer to that would be obvious.0 -
thanks very much Blanch152. Much appreciated.
A sensible reply for a change.
Now for much reading but it will be worth it to get a real grasp of the situation.
https://web.actuaries.ie/sites/default/files/2018-05/Measuring%20the%20cost%20of%20the%20State%E2%80%99s%20pension%20promises.pdf
Well given it a quick speed read, will read it in finer detail tomorrow.
Very sober reading, definitely something everyone should flick through
But it is very very clear there is no way to sustain pensions the way they are.
Thing will be ok till about 2026 (there would still be a deficit before this point but possibly one that could be absorbed).
Beyond that the deficit starts climbing toward 4 billion per year, which is simply not possible.
When we get to 2045 the deficit is over 11 billion a year.
The only way it would be possibly to deliver a pension at 65 at this time is if we increased PRSI contributions from now, not then, by 74% or there about's.
I dont think anyone would consider that sustainable or even possible.
I will dig more tomorrow, try verify some numbers, but I cant see them being that far off.
thanks Blanch152 for the link,0 -
Ha Ha, now I know who the FG village idiot is.
Do you realise how stupid you have just made yourself look. Probably not you might have to think.
I was not supporting any party, I was actually questioning whether SF could afford to keep the pensionable age set at 65 among other things.
I was asking for facts, if they exist, but apparently you are happy to ignore any that might be at all relevant, even if they might be of benefit to you
Had you been any way intelligent, because obviously you are far from it, you might have sought them too.
It's people like you that has got me seriously thinking of giving SF a 1st preference vote. I am slowly coming to the conclusion that FG have just become a soundbite and wise crack party. Every time they are asked a serious question in the media its a soundbite carefully crafted by headquarters to be meaningless, or it's idiotic attacks on the opposition because it all their fault despite them not being in government.
Carry on, you have done you party no service whatsoever, I'm sure they will be very pleased with your little performance. That might even qualify you as a future FG minister.
I think you have quoted the wrong person here??0 -
Sinn Féin’s proposal to abolish the USC for the first €30,000 of salary would cost €1.2 billion while ensuring that everyone has the right to retire at 65 would cost €368 million, the party says. Increasing the State pension by €20 a week would cost €750 million.
Abolishing the property tax would cost €485 million and cutting the 5 per cent insurance premium levy would cost €330 million.
Mr Doherty insisted that their proposals were absolutely affordable as there was a €1.4 billion surplus and their measures had been fully costed by the Department of Finance.
There is a surplus in year 1. What funds it in in year 2, 3, 4.....
SF pull this crap every time, saying they've costed it, which is technically true, but they've never shown the effect long term of their proposals, which is the sort of recklessness that lands the exchequer in the sh1t down the line.0 -
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For Forks Sake wrote: »There is a surplus in year 1. What funds it in in year 2, 3, 4.....
SF pull this crap every time, saying they've costed it, which is technically true, but they've never shown the effect long term of their proposals, which is the sort of recklessness that lands the exchequer in the sh1t down the line.
I may be mistaken but my understanding is that this is an annual surplus due to higher than expected tax receipts. I'm pretty sure the department of finance wouldn't stand over a single year forecast.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 14815
I may be mistaken but my understanding is that this is an annual surplus due to higher than expected tax receipts.
It's not an "annual surplus" - There just happened to be a surplus this year , absolutely no guarantee that there would be a surplus at any other time.I'm pretty sure the department of finance wouldn't stand over a single year forecast.
Also - That's exactly how those "Costings" work.
The Dept are asked - "How much would it cost to remove the USC?" or "How much money would be made by adding a 3rd tax rate of X on those earning more than 100k?" etc. and they provide that singular answer.
They are not asked "Can we afford this?" or "What happens to our plan if tax receipts drop by 5%" or "How hard will it be to hire Hospital consultants if we increase PRSI for those earning more than 100k?"
All Parties talking about their proposals being "fully costed" is utterly disingenuous.
The idea that each parties economic manifesto has been fully pressure tested and evaluated in terms of its 5 or 10 year impact is laughable.0 -
It's not an "annual surplus" - There just happened to be a surplus this year , absolutely no guarantee that there would be a surplus at any other time.
Also - That's exactly how those "Costings" work.
The Dept are asked - "How much would it cost to remove the USC?" or "How much money would be made by adding a 3rd tax rate of X on those earning more than 100k?" etc. and they provide that singular answer.
They are not asked "Can we afford this?" or "What happens to our plan if tax receipts drop by 5%" or "How hard will it be to hire Hospital consultants if we increase PRSI for those earning more than 100k?"
All Parties talking about their proposals being "fully costed" is utterly disingenuous.
The idea that each parties economic manifesto has been fully pressure tested and evaluated in terms of its 5 or 10 year impact is laughable.
As Regina Doherty says...'Nobody reads manifestos'.0 -
I have worked on various community projects locally with the Local SF candidate here when she was a councillor. I think she's a lovely woman, dedicated public rep buy I will not vote for her next week.
Not only did she campaign for Jerry McCabes killers to be released, not only did she welcome them home as POWS, She ****ing married and had a kid with him while he was on the inside.
What cheek do SF have to be asking us to elect somebody who not only condoned the murder but started a relationship with the man when he was behind bars for murdering an agent of the state.
If SF gets enters government do you think the Gardai would like her as minister for Justice ?
SF are not a.normal party.0 -
I have worked on various community projects locally with the Local SF candidate here when she was a councillor. I think she's a lovely woman, dedicated public rep buy I will not vote for her next week.
Not only did she campaign for Jerry McCabes killers to be released, not only did she welcome them home as POWS, She ****ing married and had a kid with him while he was on the inside.
What cheek do SF have to be asking us to elect somebody who not only condoned the murder but started a relationship with the man when he was behind bars for murdering an agent of the state.
If SF gets enters government do you think the Gardai would like her as minister for Justice ?
SF are not a.normal party.
At least you know who she is and what she stands for and can decide not to vote for her.
If the Garda are professional they'll serve under whom ever. We need to stop seeing the Garda like a private members club and treating them as such. The work for the state.0 -
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I have worked on various community projects locally with the Local SF candidate here when she was a councillor. I think she's a lovely woman, dedicated public rep buy I will not vote for her next week.
Not only did she campaign for Jerry McCabes killers to be released, not only did she welcome them home as POWS, She ****ing married and had a kid with him while he was on the inside.
What cheek do SF have to be asking us to elect somebody who not only condoned the murder but started a relationship with the man when he was behind bars for murdering an agent of the state.
If SF gets enters government do you think the Gardai would like her as minister for Justice ?
SF are not a.normal party.
What you people seem to forget is that Sinn Fein/IRA were murdering under the conditions of a war. It's different when you murder in war and innocent people get murdered in war all the time. People who hark on about SF being murderers seem to forget many people have condoned that murder because of the occupation in the North of the country. If you come here as a solider of a foreign country to consolidate your power here expect to get killed. It;s not only forgivable - it is warranted.0 -
I have worked on various community projects locally with the Local SF candidate here when she was a councillor. I think she's a lovely woman, dedicated public rep buy I will not vote for her next week.
Not only did she campaign for Jerry McCabes killers to be released, not only did she welcome them home as POWS, She ****ing married and had a kid with him while he was on the inside.
What cheek do SF have to be asking us to elect somebody who not only condoned the murder but started a relationship with the man when he was behind bars for murdering an agent of the state.
If SF gets enters government do you think the Gardai would like her as minister for Justice ?
SF are not a.normal party.
Neither were FG or FF a 'normal' party at one time either. They sat opposite one another having tried to kill or wipe the other out.
Look who the Gardai have now at the top of the tree? If that can happen why can't a SF minister for justice?
There was nothing right or desirable about what happened during a conflict/war. There never is.
I doubt very much that there is a SF rep anywhere condoning what happened to Jerry McCabe.
The question is, can something be built from all that destruction of life?
If you have any pride in what we achieved since independence then the answer is 'yes'.0 -
What you people seem to forget is that Sinn Fein/IRA were murdering under the conditions of a war. It's different when you murder in war and innocent people get murdered in war all the time. People who hark on about SF being murderers seem to forget many people have condoned that murder because of the occupation in the North of the country. If you come here as a solider of a foreign country to consolidate your power here expect to get killed. It;s not only forgivable - it is warranted.
Also little to do with southern politics in the 2020 election IMO, but it's a handy go to for FF/FG apologists who would be pissing against the wind if they spoke on their party's record.0 -
What you people seem to forget is that Sinn Fein/IRA were murdering under the conditions of a war. It's different when you murder in war and innocent people get murdered in war all the time. People who hark on about SF being murderers seem to forget many people have condoned that murder because of the occupation in the North of the country. If you come here as a solider of a foreign country to consolidate your power here expect to get killed. It;s not only forgivable - it is warranted.
You’ll have to explain how blowing kids up in a place like Warrington is warranted.0 -
JohnnyFlash wrote: »You’ll have to explain how blowing kids up in a place like Warrington is warranted.
I hope they bring that Mary Lou to justice :rolleyes:0 -
What you people seem to forget is that Sinn Fein/IRA were murdering under the conditions of a war. It's different when you murder in war and innocent people get murdered in war all the time. People who hark on about SF being murderers seem to forget many people have condoned that murder because of the occupation in the North of the country. If you come here as a solider of a foreign country to consolidate your power here expect to get killed. It;s not only forgivable - it is warranted.
Conditions of war ? Between who ? A group of thugs that had no mandate from anybody carrying out bombings on civilian targets ? Don't give me that it was war nonsense. It's was a group of thugs fighting against another group of thugs that's all it was.....
What mandate did IRA/SF have ?0 -
Matt Barrett wrote: »I hope they bring that Mary Lou to justice :rolleyes:
Perhaps she could be “apprehended” while she attends one of the bomber’s funeral?“It is not blood that makes you Irish but a willingness to be part of the Irish nation” - Thomas Davis
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SF have stated that they will lower the retirement age back to 65, this is a huge deal, it will win them many votes, people will think of themselves and vote for more money in their pockets
The problem is that the state, like other countrues now, cannot afford to keep the pension age at 65. It's paid for by the wording person so they're going to have to raise taxes for it instead.
Many other voters recognise that governments have to implement unpopular decisions out of necessity. It's the government's job. This just shows that SF are willing to try to sell is anything just for the sole opportunity to push for a border poll that is too early.
It's the army councils objective and they say the objectives when they offer the sun Fein membership their sole choice of leader to follow through.0 -
jimmycrackcorm wrote: »The problem is that the state, like other countrues now, cannot afford to keep the pension age at 65. It's paid for by the wording person so they're going to have to raise taxes for it instead.
Many other voters recognise that governments have to implement unpopular decisions out of necessity. It's the government's job. This just shows that SF are willing to try to sell is anything just for the sole opportunity to push for a border poll that is too early.
It's the army councils objective and they say the objectives when they offer the sun Fein membership their sole choice of leader to follow through.
It's funny how the government engage in policies that damage society and enrich private business who pay little tax and it's sold as necessity or making the hard choices and anyone doing anything positive for the average working tax payer is being frivolous.0 -
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JohnnyFlash wrote: »You’ll have to explain how blowing kids up in a place like Warrington is warranted.
I said if you come as an occupying soldier its warranted.0
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