People like SF candidates but won't vote for SF

efanton

piplip87 wrote: »

Conditions of war ? Between who ? A group of thugs that had no mandate from anybody carrying out bombings on civilian targets ? Don't give me that it was war nonsense. It's was a group of thugs fighting against another group of thugs that's all it was.....

What mandate did IRA/SF have ?

You could equally argue what mandate did the British government have being that they, the police, and the armed forces consistently operated outside the law.
If a government operates outside the law it has no mandate.

Would it not be possible for people to get over this tit for tat. Yes many many people were injured, killed and had their lives totally disrupted. that happened on both sides and running up a tally of who did what doesn't help any of those people whatsoever.

When I hear people down here in the republic condemning SF or the actions of the Provisional IRA but yet never have lived a single day North of the border, or been North of the border frequently during the troubles, I ask them what did you do to help? The answer is usually absolutely nothing. The Irish governments were well aware of the violence, victimisation and discrimination taking place in Northern Ireland BEFORE the Provisional IRA even existed. They did nothing to help, except make sure that it remained north of the border.

I knew a few people that were rounded up and imprisoned and I can categorically assure you that they had absolutely nothing to do with either side. I dont hear those crying about SF mentioning them. There were lots of innocent people affected and unfortunately we simply have to accept that, we have to accept that there has been some sort of resolution with the GFA and carry on. The best we can do is ensure that it never happens again on this Island and that those charged with responsibility of ensuring the peace process and the new devolved government with power sharing are held to account and carry out their duties, and that not only includes those parties currently in Stormont it includes our government and the British government too

Calling out SF TD's that are now in the Dail for something that had nothing to do with them 30 years ago is just plain wrong. Destroy any argument they have regarding their policies. criticise their economic plans if you can find fault, criticise their actions and the action of other parties in Stormont, but reverting back to historical arguments about historical violence and events is to me not only ridiculous but wrong.

The reason there was sectarian violence in northern Ireland is because people were not prepared to let go of old and established hatreds. Don't tell me we should be just the same, or that is acceptable in the Republic of Ireland in 2020.

James Brown

The next time the Queen or Boris comes over we should be sure to give out to them about the atrocities carried out in their name.
And people say those not wanting a Tan commemoration have hang ups?

I'm pretty sure the IRA are stood down and they signed up to some kind of peace dealy, but beats discussing the myriad national crises doesn't it?

maccored

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The next time the Queen or Boris comes over we should be sure to give out to them about the atrocities carried out in their name.
And people say those not wanting a Tan commemoration have hang ups?

I'm pretty sure the IRA are stood down and they signed up to some kind of peace dealy, but beats discussing the myriad national crises doesn't it?

no no - sure they're in belfast running SF or something arent they? Them, the aliens and Shergar.

James Brown

Imagine Boris coming over to discuss trade and our new Taoiseach Willie O'Dea refusing to speak to him because of the atrocities carried out by the British army?

flutered

piplip87 wrote: »

Conditions of war ? Between who ? A group of thugs that had no mandate from anybody carrying out bombings on civilian targets ? Don't give me that it was war nonsense. It's was a group of thugs fighting against another group of thugs that's all it was.....

What mandate did IRA/SF have ?

bombay street for one

christy c

Matt Barrett wrote: »

anyone doing anything positive for the average working tax payer is being frivolous.

That's the point though, the retirement age idea isn't positive. It's stupid.

frillyleaf

piplip87 wrote: »

I have worked on various community projects locally with the Local SF candidate here when she was a councillor. I think she's a lovely woman, dedicated public rep buy I will not vote for her next week.

Not only did she campaign for Jerry McCabes killers to be released, not only did she welcome them home as POWS, She ****ing married and had a kid with him while he was on the inside.


What cheek do SF have to be asking us to elect somebody who not only condoned the murder but started a relationship with the man when he was behind bars for murdering an agent of the state.

If SF gets enters government do you think the Gardai would like her as minister for Justice ?

SF are not a.normal party.

I find this hard to believe . What is the candidates name please ?

frillyleaf

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Neither were FG or FF a 'normal' party at one time either. They sat opposite one another having tried to kill or wipe the other out.
Look who the Gardai have now at the top of the tree? If that can happen why can't a SF minister for justice?

There was nothing right or desirable about what happened during a conflict/war. There never is.
I doubt very much that there is a SF rep anywhere condoning what happened to Jerry McCabe.

The question is, can something be built from all that destruction of life?
If you have any pride in what we achieved since independence then the answer is 'yes'.

Can you explain more about the head of Garda please ?

piplip87

frillyleaf wrote: »

I find this hard to believe . What is the candidates name please ?

Pauline Tully Cavan/Monaghan
Married Pearse McAuley

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Neither were FG or FF a 'normal' party at one time either. They sat opposite one another having tried to kill or wipe the other out.
Look who the Gardai have now at the top of the tree? If that can happen why can't a SF minister for justice?

There was nothing right or desirable about what happened during a conflict/war. There never is.
I doubt very much that there is a SF rep anywhere condoning what happened to Jerry McCabe.

The question is, can something be built from all that destruction of life?
If you have any pride in what we achieved since independence then the answer is 'yes'.

There were plenty of Sinn Fein reps around to welcome Jerry McCabe's killers home and celebrate at their party. It was sickening.

As for ancient history regarding FF and FG, this isn't the 1920s, a very different time. You sound like a unionist talking about the plantations.

Whelo79

efanton wrote: »

You could equally argue what mandate did the British government have being that they, the police, and the armed forces consistently operated outside the law.
If a government operates outside the law it has no mandate.

Would it not be possible for people to get over this tit for tat. Yes many many people were injured, killed and had their lives totally disrupted. that happened on both sides and running up a tally of who did what doesn't help any of those people whatsoever.

When I hear people down here in the republic condemning SF or the actions of the Provisional IRA but yet never have lived a single day North of the border, or been North of the border frequently during the troubles, I ask them what did you do to help? The answer is usually absolutely nothing. The Irish governments were well aware of the violence, victimisation and discrimination taking place in Northern Ireland BEFORE the Provisional IRA even existed. They did nothing to help, except make sure that it remained north of the border.

I knew a few people that were rounded up and imprisoned and I can categorically assure you that they had absolutely nothing to do with either side. I dont hear those crying about SF mentioning them. There were lots of innocent people affected and unfortunately we simply have to accept that, we have to accept that there has been some sort of resolution with the GFA and carry on. The best we can do is ensure that it never happens again on this Island and that those charged with responsibility of ensuring the peace process and the new devolved government with power sharing are held to account and carry out their duties, and that not only includes those parties currently in Stormont it includes our government and the British government too

Calling out SF TD's that are now in the Dail for something that had nothing to do with them 30 years ago is just plain wrong. Destroy any argument they have regarding their policies. criticise their economic plans if you can find fault, criticise their actions and the action of other parties in Stormont, but reverting back to historical arguments about historical violence and events is to me not only ridiculous but wrong.

The reason there was sectarian violence in northern Ireland is because people were not prepared to let go of old and established hatreds. Don't tell me we should be just the same, or that is acceptable in the Republic of Ireland in 2020.

Fantastic post, well said.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

There were plenty of Sinn Fein reps around to welcome Jerry McCabe's killers home and celebrate at their party. It was sickening.

Far as I know all prisoners received welcome home parties blanch. I am sure Loyalists ones got one as well.
I, as a republican, didn't require to see them in sackcloth. Everybody had to swallow hard and accept things that were hard.

As for ancient history regarding FF and FG, this isn't the 1920s, a very different time. You sound like a unionist talking about the plantations.

Men who had tried to kill one another sat opposite one another in Dail Eireann long after the 1920's.
A conflict/war happened here for the same reasons it happened in the 1920's. People died, in exactly the same way.

The Rape of Lucretia

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Matt Barrett wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the IRA are stood down and they signed up to some kind of peace dealy, but beats discussing the myriad national crises doesn't it?

You are correct. Its not what SF/IRA are doing today that deters people from voting for them. Its the knoweldge that SF candidates having shown themselves are people who are murderers, terrorists, and support that kind of illegality, have shown them to be fundamentally repulsive to peace minded people, and beyond voting for as national representatives.
Any SF candidate or party member is undoubtedly of despicable moral character and as someone willing to turn to violence, regardless of the law, if they themselves believe it to be OK. Anyone voting for them is equally questionable by virtue of the association.

James Brown

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

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You are correct. Its not what SF/IRA are doing today that deters people from voting for them. Its the knoweldge that SF candidates having shown themselves are people who are murderers, terrorists, and support that kind of illegality, have shown them to be fundamentally repulsive to peace minded people, and beyond voting for as national representatives.
Any SF candidate or party member is undoubtedly of despicable moral character and as someone willing to turn to violence, regardless of the law, if they themselves believe it to be OK. Anyone voting for them is equally questionable by virtue of the association.

The last thing the IRA did was sign up to a peace agreement.
You should accept the democratic views of your fellow country men, even if you don't agree. It's how society functions.
I'd put SF ahead of FG/FF any day and I'm not even giving SF a number 1. You should really consider the 2020 election. I don't think the postman will start petrol bombing letter boxes if SF win some seats.

Hamsterchops

Granny15 wrote: »

I said if you come as an occupying soldier its warranted.

This is the problem with all Sinn Fein threads.....

Unsavoury baggage & all that goes with it, from the PIRA being the enemy of this State to being the enemy of the vast majority of the people of NI, to being the enemy of the people of Great Britain .... and yet you get the PIRA fan boys on here justifying their own brand of terrorism "call it a war" then you can kill who you like (Warrington) raid as many post offices, do loads of Bank jobs, kidnappings, disappearances + kill a few Garda too, all with impunity.

This is the underlying problem with SF and their supporters who have their own take on history, and their own corrupt & twisted version of events, in a universe where Seamus Mallon & the SDLP accounted for nothing while Gerry & the boys were the heroes of the AK-47 & Semtex :mad:

For the day that's in it, and the of memory of Seamus Mallon, I really hope Sinn Fein lose lots of seats in this election.

Granny15

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

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You are correct. Its not what SF/IRA are doing today that deters people from voting for them. Its the knoweldge that SF candidates having shown themselves are people who are murderers, terrorists, and support that kind of illegality, have shown them to be fundamentally repulsive to peace minded people, and beyond voting for as national representatives.
Any SF candidate or party member is undoubtedly of despicable moral character and as someone willing to turn to violence, regardless of the law, if they themselves believe it to be OK. Anyone voting for them is equally questionable by virtue of the association.

Every man / nation has a right to self defense. If you find self defense morally questionable or despicable you need to have a closer look at the law. Reprisals and all sorts of injustices and crimes happen in war. Mistakes also happen. To paint yourself as a peace lover and that all violence is despicable look a bit closer at the occupier who buy, rape and kill the Irishman for centuries.

Hamsterchops

Granny; Sounds like you're totally brainwashed and wrapped up in the folklore of hard-line blood-letting Republicanism, no doubt it's a phase you'll hopefully grow out of.

Whelo79

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/01/24/news/mod-documents-link-robert-niarac-linked-to-miami-showband-massacre-1823416/

I'd happily stand by people who stood up against British collusion in the murder of innocent Irish citizens.

Wrongs were done on both sides. It's time for people to leave the past in the past and move on. It's a new generation and a new era of politics.

Hamsterchops

If you read #346 you'll note that the IRA were not just the enemy of Great Britain, they were also the enemy of the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland, and finally you'll note that they were our enemy too (here in this State)!

Sinn Fein have always defended the PIRA, hence why they're so toxic to so many Irish people.

Granny15

It’s all in the past and we’ll be a better country with it all kept in the past. I don’t like some people taking the moral high ground and felt it needed a riposte.

maccored

Hamsterchops wrote: »

If you read #346 you'll note that the IRA were not just the enemy of Great Britain, they were also the enemy of the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland, and finally you'll note that they were our enemy too (here in this State)!

Sinn Fein have always defended the PIRA, hence why they're so toxic to so many Irish people.

as posted, its the past. leave it there.

youve a very onesided view btw. many people in the north supported the IRA. Easy to talk **** about it living on this side of the border. If you had lived through it your attitude would no doubt be completely different.

then again - its great having a high horse.

ressem

Reasons not to vote for the party? What is their role model?
Because their behaviour and foreign visits associate them with idealizing Maduro and Chavez in Venezuela, rather than Sweden. And in past years, the Castro brothers.
Vive la revolution, **** GNP, all are subservient to the party.

Venezuelan pensioners getting increases being paid in Cryptocurrency? Wouldn't that be a nice solution on SFs posters.
(yeah I know Maduro had to backtrack on that one)

Is that ideological linking out-of-date? Well Sinn Fein for all it's "media savvy" is proving pretty bad at informing the public and demonstrating otherwise.



The problem with voting for a good person from a bad party?
As Finian McGrath described it recently

I’ve always been independent. But at times I had to go against policy issues I would advocate for,” he said, stating you get to say your piece at the Cabinet table, and give your view but ultimately a decision is made by the majority.

And in Sinn fein, that party decision-making is much more murky than the other parties.

Granny15 wrote: »

Every man / nation has a right to self defense. If you find self defense morally questionable or despicable you need to have a closer look at the law. Reprisals and all sorts of injustices and crimes happen in war. Mistakes also happen. To paint yourself as a peace lover and that all violence is despicable look a bit closer at the occupier who buy, rape and kill the Irishman for centuries.

And their excuse for attacks and threats on southern Ireland civilians and their families? For things as small as an uncomplimentary probation report on one of their violent convicted imprisoned brethren, some families had a surprise visit in the middle of the night. Irish midlands, within the last 30 years.
Ignore our atrocities, focus on the external adversary. Plenty of examples of regimes around the world that play that tune.

Granny15

The problem with right wingers is that they are so vein and narcissistic that they have to get the last punch in and take the moral high ground. Pal I wouldn’t waste my time responding to some of the venom you have posted above. You’ll lose the election and SF are on the up in this country. Bet it sucks to know that.

maccored

Ive been a SF member for 2 decades and I've never come across this whole "subservient to the party" bollocks, or communism or the party being run by shady men in Belfast.

Then again i don't read the Indo so ....

maccored

And in Sinn fein, that party decision-making is much more murky than the other parties.

Policy is discussed and agreed on a party wide basis. Theres always a chance for an everyday member to have their say and yet some people don't understand that concept. That kind of talk quoted is just hilarious.

Better Than Christ

Gynoid wrote: »

Jean McConville.

If you search the Dáil records, Jean McConville's name has come up a lot in recent years, usually reduced to little more than a cheap punchline from FG/FF/Labour TDs whenever someone from Sinn Féin criticises them on issues like health service failures, poverty, domestic violence, disability cuts, etc.

maccored

eagle eye wrote: »

A vote for a SF candidate you like is also a vote for Mary Lou and for more money for the wasters on social welfare and less for the ordinary hard working person who earns a decent wage. It's also a vote for a UI and that'll mean even less money in your pocket.

Financial prudence is the reason you don't vote SF.

this post tells me eagle eye doesn't really have a notion of what SF stands for.

Granted yes they represent people who don't work etc-(as do all parties) but they also represent people (like me) who are educated, with good jobs, who own property and pay taxes. There are many like me. this idea all SF voters are on the dole is just lazy, badly researched rubbish.

To say things like "A vote for a SF candidate you like is also a vote for Mary Lou and for more money for the wasters on social welfare and less for the ordinary hard working person who earns a decent wage" makes me wonder if you realise it's been FG and FF over the years who have been providing the higher dole payments and other entitlements in budgets and usually pre-promised around election time.

SF have never been in a position to drive through anything that would give people more dole money or get them more expensive housing as they've never been in power. Its the party you've been voting for (assuming you vote for one of the main parties) who've been doing that with every budget and pre election promises.

cosybeach

special criminal court must be protect so dont vote SF

is_that_so

maccored wrote: »

Policy is discussed and agreed on a party wide basis. Theres always a chance for an everyday member to have their say and yet some people don't understand that concept. That kind of talk quoted is just hilarious.

As it is in all parties. It's clearly the type of policy members generally agree with, policies a lot of other people, party and non-party alike, do not share.

JohnnyFlash

Better Than Christ wrote: »

If you search the Dáil records, Jean McConville's name has come up a lot in recent years, usually reduced to little more than a cheap punchline from FG/FF/Labour TDs whenever someone from Sinn Féin criticises them on issues like health service failures, poverty, domestic violence, disability cuts, etc.

The leader, sitting TD, and president of SF at the time was the man who ordered a mother of 10 to be murdered and buried. A man who despite his carefully crafted Twitter persona is a person who lacks any human empathy. I’d consider that noteworthy at the very least.