People like SF candidates but won't vote for SF

ressem

Edgware wrote: »

Don't be under any illusions. If SF get into government in the Republic they will do exactly as the rest. Get the head into the trough, renege on their far fetched policies and sell out on their support

Alas that's the best case. They have some decent people that if not tied to ideological obsolete crap could ok.

Plausible alternative
As part of a minority government, they could continue with silly little gestures of support to Iran, Venezuela and the other countries on the US black list, get Ireland on the bad books of the US republicans, and cause substantial decreases in US investment in a swap of petty tit-for-tat.

As for broken promises
We already read the views of economists, warning of the potential for dramatic corporation tax decreases, that FG, like 2007 FF are ignoring. We're just waiting for Varadkar to announce that the boom will get boomier.

Fann Linn

Edgware wrote: »

Don't be under any illusions. If SF get into government in the Republic they will do exactly as the rest. Get the head into the trough, renege on their far fetched policies and sell out on their support

In other words don't vote for the Shinners for they may do what FF/ FG/ Labour and the Greens have previously done whilst in Govt.

maccored

piplip87 wrote: »

Remember Mary Lou is only with SF because a bigger party refused to select her to run for a council seat.

Another article for all the shinnerbots here trying to justify the murder off innocent people "in the name of Civil Rights" .

Here is an article with one of the key drivers behind the civil rights movement and he says :


They would have you believe that it all happened in the interests of equality. It did not. The IRA were fighting to get the British out of Ireland. It was all about 'Brits out'.

"Republicans have to be contested over October '68, because if you don't, it's going to be difficult to contest the Provo narrative over the rest of the Troubles. It's important as citizens, journalists, writers and academics to get this right and to say that, implicitly at least, Sinn Fein is lying about October 5.

"They should be ashamed of themselves, but I don't suppose for a moment that they are."

He also goes on to say:

Once a secret army present themselves as the representatives of the people, they are telling lies. If you are a secret army you cannot be - and they weren't - accountable to the people in whose name they were carrying out their armed struggles."

Bots are also forgetting the SDLP had the wide support of the Nationalist people throughout the troubles. They where a party that believed in peace so your assertion the SF/IRA took up arms for civil rights is not only wrong, it's completely revisionist

The minute you start shouting 'shinnerbots' is the minute you lose the debate. The SDLP werent as popular as you think - certainly not where I grew up anyway

joe40

Sinn Fein will not be in government because both FF and FG have categorically ruled out (shamefully in my opinion) coalition, so to go back on that would be a major u turn.
Even if they were in government they are realistic enough to know as junior coalition partners they will not get all their policies implemented.
Government may actually be damaging for Sinn Fein. No party will get to fulfil all their promises/aspirations that is a given, but junior coalition partners especially left leaning take the brunt of the blame.
Regardless of who wins this election housing and health are going to be major problems for years to come. No easy fixes

endainoz

ressem wrote: »

Alas that's the best case. They have some decent people that if not tied to ideological obsolete crap could ok.

Plausible alternative
As part of a minority government, they could continue with silly little gestures of support to Iran, Venezuela and the other countries on the US black list, get Ireland on the bad books of the US republicans, and cause substantial decreases in US investment in a swap of petty tit-for-tat.

As for broken promises
We already read the views of economists, warning of the potential for dramatic corporation tax decreases, that FG, like 2007 FF are ignoring. We're just waiting for Varadkar to announce that the boom will get boomier.

It will matter little what Republicans (or Democrats) think if a minority party gives pro Palestine/Iran/Venezuela or any other so called enemy of 'murrica. Investment will continue regardless from US interests.

But you are right about the corporation tax, which we rely on way too much for tax revenue and it'll only last so long, and when it stops you point about a theoretical Sinn Fein sympathizing with bold countries will matter even less.

James Brown

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

You alright, Matt? Very tetchy these days. It’s only politics, dude. There’s far more to life than it.

All I’m saying is SF have a great chance of being the minority party in Government after the next election. Get to see them implement some of their policies. If it does happen and they have to deal with realpolitik then there will be no one more disappointed than their hardcore supporter.

Not sure where you're getting tetchy JF. Your comment made no sense.
One minute they don't want to get in and here they are with an albeit slim shot and you're going on like it's something they weren't trying to get.
Of course who ever gets in will need enact policy. Not really insightful or specific to them.

gormdubhgorm

omega man wrote: »

SF won’t want to go into government for fear of having to deliver and make difficult unpopular decisions. Their ambition is to be the main opposition party.

I hear a lot about Pearse Doherty’s ability but what qualifications does he hold to be a finance minister? It’s very different to any other portfolio for obvious reasons...

Others also say give them a chance sure but they've shown their cards over years of inaction in NI.
Aside from that how do we know their historical IRA links are no longer in place? Can we trust them in government with access to state security in a position of policing and judicial influence...?

This is exactly how I feel about it. SF seem to like calling themselves 'the only AI party on the island'. But in NI they are acting the eejit along with the DUP for about three years now? Plus even if your local SF candidate seems sound and nice person, how can you be sure that some shadowy person is not directing them? And the candidate is just the nice smiling face.
Where does the real power lay in SF?
Plus the other fact about SF dissension among the ranks is as rare as hen's teeth. They rarely move away from the party lines, compared to other political parties.
That is a bit disconcerting to me.

Odhinn

Edgware wrote: »

Don't be under any illusions. If SF get into government in the Republic they will do exactly as the rest. Get the head into the trough, renege on their far fetched policies and sell out on their support

They may do, they may not. I'll keep voting for them until we find out one way or another.

James Brown

Odhinn wrote: »

They may do, they may not. I'll keep voting for them until we find out one way or another.

Unfortunate all FF/FG have is bogeyman tales and suggestions SF might be as bad as them.

gormdubhgorm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Unfortunate all FF/FG have is bogeyman tales and suggestions SF might be as bad as them.

Think about it though if FF/FG are that bad why do they keep getting elected in government?
Why do Labour keep slipping?
Why has SF's support slipped in the local elections?

Despite all the flak FF/FG get they keep getting elected? Granted two cheeks of the same @rse but they keep getting elected.

Plus FG have managed to achieve near full employment after the mad Celtic tiger years where FF tried to drag the country into the abyss. At that time SF were only learning how to be proper politicians in the South.

I feel that the Greens have way more notions of getting into government than SF will ever have in the ROI.

walshb

Does anyone truly believe that SF want to get into power?

They are D quintessential naysaying anti this that and anything else party...

They exist to be in opposition...and they truly appeal to a certain demographic!

endainoz

joe40 wrote: »

Sinn Fein will not be in government because both FF and FG have categorically ruled out (shamefully in my opinion) coalition, so to go back on that would be a major u turn.
Even if they were in government they are realistic enough to know as junior coalition partners they will not get all their policies implemented.
Government may actually be damaging for Sinn Fein. No party will get to fulfil all their promises/aspirations that is a given, but junior coalition partners especially left leaning take the brunt of the blame.
Regardless of who wins this election housing and health are going to be major problems for years to come. No easy fixes

These opinions of "oh we would never go into government with that crowd" changes very quickly when power is concerned.

Odhinn

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Think about it though if FF/FG are that bad why do they keep getting elected in government?
Why do Labour keep slipping?
Why has SF's support slipped in the local elections?

Despite all the flak FF/FG get they keep getting elected? Granted two cheeks of the same @rse but they keep getting elected.

Plus FG have managed to achieve near full employment after the mad Celtic tiger years where FF tried to drag the country into the abyss. At that time SF were only learning how to be proper politicians in the South.

I feel that the Greens have way more notions of getting into government than SF will ever have in the ROI.

I remember when they didn't have a single seat. Sooner or later they'll be in - unfortunately this will probably be in a coalition.

efanton

ressem wrote: »

Alas that's the best case. They have some decent people that if not tied to ideological obsolete crap could ok.

Plausible alternative
As part of a minority government, they could continue with silly little gestures of support to Iran, Venezuela and the other countries on the US black list, get Ireland on the bad books of the US republicans, and cause substantial decreases in US investment in a swap of petty tit-for-tat.

As for broken promises
We already read the views of economists, warning of the potential for dramatic corporation tax decreases, that FG, like 2007 FF are ignoring. We're just waiting for Varadkar to announce that the boom will get boomier.

Why should Ireland be beholden to what a USA government says? In recent decades most of the wars in the world have been caused by the USA either through direct military action or through their devious meddling in the background.
Surely it should be the case that as a small nation ourselves that we should deplore the meddling of USA, Russia and the other world superpowers in other small nations when there was absolutely no need at all for it and it is done for selfish gain not humanitarian reasons. It funny how Iran, Iraq, Syria and Venezuela are still countries with huge oil reserves. All countries that the USA have recently interfered with through sanction or used military intervention without UN approval have something that the USA want complete control off.

If a south american country wants a socialist state and the majority vote for it, that's good enough for me, it was democratically elected. Same if it was a right of center government democratically elected. Venezuela was progressing nicely, until the USA started interfering in the background and imposing sanctions designed to cause regime change. The USA nobbled the Venezuelan economy that's why the country has recently gone downhill again.

US companies really dont care about politics, they care about economies.
No matter what an Irish government says, US companies will not care a jot, their bottom line is profit.

Vadakar recently publicly criticised the US president on their stance with regards to Brexit.
Enda Kenny famously used his Patricks day visit to the Whitehouse to criticise US immigration policy and lecture Trump in public to a worldwide TV audience.
Both were absolutely right. They were both perfectly within their rights to do so as they were looking after Irish interests.

It is also in Ireland's interests to remain on friendly terms with as many countries as possible. We a predominantly an export economy. We might not necessarily have to totally agree with their politics or religious believes.
Until last year Ireland's export trade with Iran was close to €150 million and that was steadily increasing. Trumps interference and imposition of sanctions threatens much of that.
Ireland's exports 6.4 billion worth of goods to south american countries and that has steadily been increasing.
Its not always in Ireland best interest do exactly what one particular US administration wants, they have a habit of changing, and we should definitely not care what one particular party in the US thinks.

FrancieBrady

walshb wrote: »

Does anyone truly believe that SF want to get into power?

They are D quintessential naysaying anti this that and anything else party...

They exist to be in opposition...and they truly appeal to a certain demographic!

Looking like the big question will be, what is Michael Martin prepared to do to be Taoiseach and if he has FF fully behind him.
I expect we will see some fracturing there if SF and FF emerge as the biggest parties.

Eric Cartman

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Looking like the big question will be, what is Michael Martin prepared to do to be Taoiseach and if he has FF fully behind him.
I expect we will see some fracturing there if SF and FF emerge as the biggest parties.

I think theres some very principled elected reps on the FF side who would absolutely leave the party in disgust if any deal was done with the shinners.

freshpopcorn

walshb wrote: »

Does anyone truly believe that SF want to get into power?

They are D quintessential naysaying anti this that and anything else party...

They exist to be in opposition...and they truly appeal to a certain demographic!

If they get into power all they've to do is blame the previous incompetent governments and say it's all there fault!

walshb

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Looking like the big question will be, what is Michael Martin prepared to do to be Taoiseach and if he has FF fully behind him.
I expect we will see some fracturing there if SF and FF emerge as the biggest parties.

SF are only running 45 or so TDs...

FG must be running a lot more...

FG and FF will be neck and neck here..

walshb

freshpopcorn wrote: »

If they get into power all they've to do is blame the previous incompetent governments and say it's all there fault!

Of course. Like they all do. But they will be pressed hard to make the crazy changes that they are lobbying for...

James Brown

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Think about it though if FF/FG are that bad why do they keep getting elected in government?
Why do Labour keep slipping?
Why has SF's support slipped in the local elections?

Despite all the flak FF/FG get they keep getting elected? Granted two cheeks of the same @rse but they keep getting elected.

Plus FG have managed to achieve near full employment after the mad Celtic tiger years where FF tried to drag the country into the abyss. At that time SF were only learning how to be proper politicians in the South.

I feel that the Greens have way more notions of getting into government than SF will ever have in the ROI.

That's the age old question. I dont know.
FG are a disaster and intentionally so. Their policies are the problem.
I'll give pretty much anyone else a shot personally.

FrancieBrady

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think theres some very principled elected reps on the FF side who would absolutely leave the party in disgust if any deal was done with the shinners.

Like?

endainoz

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think theres some very principled elected reps on the FF side who would absolutely leave the party in disgust if any deal was done with the shinners.

Now thats hilarious

Pmasterson24

I have just had an unbelievably poor encounter with Richard Bruton while he was canvassing. He was canvassing on tranquility grove so I asked about his position on all of the houses being built without any thought for infrastructure, and the social/private mix. Firstly he said it's not a government issue as it is council planning so I asked for Fine Gael's position. He basically kept fobbing me off while backing out of my drive, he didn't want to engage at all. Laughable....

Really poor from one of their supposed stronger candidates. I am stunned at the lack of basic understanding of local issues and his reaction when pressed. Even a bit of honesty about not knowing or having a different position than me would have been fine. I was open to vote for anyone, am not at all political but if this is a measure of the best we have to run the country I am afraid we are in big trouble. Vote anyone but Richard now for me, let's see what the next one is like.

efanton

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Think about it though if FF/FG are that bad why do they keep getting elected in government?
Why do Labour keep slipping?
Why has SF's support slipped in the local elections?

Despite all the flak FF/FG get they keep getting elected? Granted two cheeks of the same @rse but they keep getting elected.

Plus FG have managed to achieve near full employment after the mad Celtic tiger years where FF tried to drag the country into the abyss. At that time SF were only learning how to be proper politicians in the South.

I feel that the Greens have way more notions of getting into government than SF will ever have in the ROI.

Unfortunately its mostly the Irish electorate to blame, not the parties.
The plain simple truth is the Irish electorate are afraid of change, and even more scared when something radically new is suggested. Rather than try something new and possibly benefiting greatly, they will play it safe elect a party that they know will not deliver on its promises but they know what to expect.

When a man has nothing to lose, only then is he prepared to lose everything.
that moment is coming.

Its getting closer to the point when that stance will flip. The electorate are slowly beginning to imagine of what was 20 years ago totally unthinkable, a government that does not include FF or FG. Unfortunately the smaller parties are not growing in strength fast enough to meet that demand.

If there was a general election where SF got 30+ seats things would change dramatically. Not because everyone would jump on the same bad wagon and vote SF in the subsequent elections, but because they will now see voting for the smaller parties Greens, Labour, SD, etc as viable parties in a coalition government that wold not include FF or FG.

If they vote for the Greens (for instance) at the moment they know its a certainty that FF or FG will be in government with them. Because of that many see it as a pointless vote.
But what would happen if they could see the Green's being a significant partner and not just a party along for the ride in a FG FF government.

Jinglejangle69

The shinners open door policy towards immigration will be interesting when they are in power with regards houses for everyone.

Surely they can't build all those houses?

Jinglejangle69

McMurphy wrote: »

Oh sorry - obviously the fact you made a comment about the shinners bankrupting the country, and me posting a tweet about Regina Doherty saying something similar, and her having experience about bankruptcy was very confusing altogether.

Right I forgot Regina bankrupt the country.

smurgen

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

The shinners open door policy towards immigration will be interesting when they are in power with regards houses for everyone.

Surely they can't build all those houses?

Talk about a low standard post.

walshb

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

The shinners open door policy towards immigration will be interesting when they are in power with regards houses for everyone.

Surely they can't build all those houses?

Indeed. And here’s the thing: From my observations, the demographic that SF seek out and attract, are quite vocal regarding their anti immigration views...

I guess they feel that there can’t be enough magic money to welfare all of us, and them as well..

neiphin

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think theres some very principled elected reps on the FF side who would absolutely leave the party in disgust if any deal was done with the shinners.

McMurphy

freshpopcorn wrote: »

If they get into power all they've to do is blame the previous incompetent governments and say it's all there fault!

Yep, it's what FG hid behind for the last nine years.