People like SF candidates but won't vote for SF

McMurphy

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

It is unusual that passionate defenders of SF on sites like here, politics.ie, the journal, twitter nearly all seem to be people who never voted for them before but intend to do so this time.

Mighty strange, but I suppose it’s plausible.

Of course it's plausible, all you have to do is look at the seat gains in the Dail, while the combined share of FF/FG has been declining.


it's not rocket science tbh.

FrancieBrady

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Did you look at the byline date?

Did you read it? It applies into the future for all elections.

While this pledge will of necessity vary for each election it will incorporate the following terms:

Bishop of hope

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did you read it? It applies into the future for all elections.

Lol, did it take you all day until now to find that, you must have done some trolling the archives to find it.

ohnonotgmail

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did you read it? It applies into the future for all elections.

It has been in place for 20 years and the world has not collapsed. i dont think this is the gotcha you think it is.

FrancieBrady

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Lol, did it take you all day until now to find that, you must have done some trolling the archives to find it.

No...it's doing the rounds on Twitter.


It proves what is being said, all parties make TD's conform to the party line. FF by a pledge, just like the shock horror story emerged yesterday about SF signing a pledge.

Edgware

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

It is unusual that passionate defenders of SF on sites like here, politics.ie, the journal, twitter nearly all seem to be people who never voted for them before but intend to do so this time.

Mighty strange, but I suppose it’s plausible.

The " I'm not a S.F. supporter but" gang

James Brown

It's the same way candidates get parachuted into areas they have no connection to. HQ decides. The TD's don't all sit around working out strategy, they're busy doing favours and going to meetings etc.

James Brown

Edgware wrote: »

The " I'm not a S.F. supporter but" gang

I think most of us here on boards are pretty honest if asked. Even some FG'ers

machaseh

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

There’s a very good chance you’ll see them in Government after this election. Time for them to shït or get off the pot, and they are losing some of their more sinister representatives- Adams and Ferris for example, so they’ll be slightly more attractive to FF members.

I really hope so. But to be honest, FF is slightly ahead in the polls now and we often see that people tend to vote more conservatively in the end .

Edgware

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I think most of us here on boards are pretty honest if asked. Even some FG'ers

Keep believing

gormdubhgorm

machaseh wrote: »

Sadly I don't have voter rights in Ireland as I am Dutch, but I would 100% vote for sinn fein.

Better social policies
More attention for the environment
More investment in public transportation
More taxation of major corporations
More focus on reuniting Ireland and getting rid of Brits
More focus on the Irish language.

Sadly I'll never see Sinn Féin in power as long as I live here, if it would ever happen I'd probably already be long gone.

Aren't the Dutch orangemen?

James Brown

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Aren't the Dutch orangemen?

This is a SF thread not a Leo Varadkar thread

johnmcdnl

machaseh wrote: »

Sadly I don't have voter rights in Ireland as I am Dutch, but I would 100% vote for sinn fein.

Better social policies
More attention for the environment
More investment in public transportation
More taxation of major corporations
More focus on reuniting Ireland and getting rid of Brits
More focus on the Irish language.

Sadly I'll never see Sinn Féin in power as long as I live here, if it would ever happen I'd probably already be long gone.

I'd love all these things too.
It's just that SFs mannifesto doesn't mention where the money for all these initatives will come from. If you spend 5 mins flicking through their manifesto they just released you'll see roughly 110 pages worth of tax cuts and social improvements.
The only way to fund these changes are by increasing taxes on people over 140k, and extra taxes on REITs, and increasing taxes on corporations as a whole. I'm not even sure the numbers balance out, but lets give them the benefit of the doubt that they do.
That will mean our entire taxes are essentially funded by a tiny number of small corporations, REITs etc, and large businesses and rich folk. If any of those large corporations or rich people leave Ireland we will be absolutely screwed because our tax base will be so reliant on them.

Now lets say we go with this plan, imagine also how much leverage that would give the rich and large corporations if they realise that if they leave they'll crash the Irish economy. How much political leverage will that give them?

It's wonderful all the things that SF promise us, I'll be the first to admit that. I'm just not convinced in any way shape or form that how it will be funded is even realistic, and even if it is, whether that's better for us, as if anything happens to the tiny % that will pay all the taxes, how that'll impact us all.

Now lets imagine we give SF a chance with their policies - and it turns out their numbers don't add up and we are hemorrhaging money, and international businesses and corporations have been driven out due to these policies. Is there any hope we'll ever bring them back? As much as we might dislike the corporations they do provide a massive number of jobs and account for a huge segment of our economy. How will we try to recover from the damage that is done if they are no longer here or have massively reduced their presence? That could be potentially one hell of a problem that I hope we don't ever have to face, and really don't want to gamble with the possibility of it happening either.

road_high

ELM327 wrote: »

My issue with SF is not due to the provo days, it's their socialist nonsense.

Same. Shocking irresponsible Marxist dogma. Crazy stuff altogether that our left wing media lap up

RandomName2

maccored wrote: »

The argument must be weak when your so willing to take a dig at a poster.

maccored wrote: »

did a six year old get into the thread?

maccored wrote: »

It gives blanch the chance though to talk about the party that he loves to hate.

Just pointing out your point was rubbish. Tell me - do you read your posts first or does it all just come out?

Sorry, forgot the quote tags there.

You use history when it suits you, but you balk at any mention of Sinn Fein's provo past

maccored wrote: »

why? too afraid of what you might find?

I remembered the quote tags that time.

Like a true Sinn Fein supporter your position is inherently contradictory. We should move on from the past, but remember that injustices were committed by Unionists, the RIC, and the RUC. We should vote for Sinn Fein because they will both increase public spending and also reduce taxation. Sinn Fein is a good party because it will promote cultural nationalism, but also social diversity and multiculturalism. Sinn Fein endeavors to provide closer ties with Europe, but also greater autonomy for Ireland.

So your contradictory stances are actually are a nice reflection of Sinn Fein as a whole.

Your insistence that the PIRA Northern Bank robbery and PIRA drug dealing had nothing to do with the PIRA is a bit stranger though, to be honest (but is again a reflection of Sinn Fein's position on the matter). Sorry, that rather is you

maccored wrote: »

waffling on about the past and you cant seem to admit that you don't have a point.

smurgen

road_high wrote: »

Same. Shocking irresponsible Marxist dogma. Crazy stuff altogether that our left wing media lap up

Marxist dogma hahaha. Was it Marxist dogma when finna fail bailed out the banks nationalising the debt? Or when fg continued to bail out junior bond holders? A decision so off the wall we now cannot afford to invest in key infrastructure.

RandomName2

road_high wrote: »

Same. Shocking irresponsible Marxist dogma. Crazy stuff altogether that our left wing media lap up

Taken straight from their website:

We will stop the pension age increase to 67 and return it to 65.

We will take 1 million workers out of the USC by abolishing the USC on the first €30,000 you earn.

We will reduce the cost of childcare by an average of €500 per child per month.

We will extend paid maternity leave to 52 weeks and increase maternity benefit by €50.

We will abolish the property tax.

We will build 100,000 homes over 5 years.

Our manifesto has been costed by the relevant government departments and is affordable and can be delivered. There will be no borrowing necessary. In fact we will run surpluses and have a surplus of more than €3bn in 2025. All taxpayers who earn under €100,000 will see a decrease in their tax of up to €700 a year.


Edit: BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE

Establish a new Irish Enterprise Agency to support domestic SMEs - €10 million
Increase funding to Enterprise Ireland by 10% - €28 million
Increase R&D funding to Science Foundation Ireland - €2 million
Increase funding to Údarás na Gaeltachta - €5 million
Increased capital investment - €1.273 billion
Create 5,000 apprenticeships - €35.8 million
Supports for those farming in Areas of Natural Constraint - €25 million
Invest in new Land Drainage Scheme - €6 million
10% funding increase to Fáilte Ireland - €10.1 million
5% funding increase to Tourism Ireland - €2.63 million
Current and capital investment in Culture, Arts and Heritage - €28 million
50% increase in funding to InterTrade Ireland - €4.58 million
Provide two free GP visits for everybody without a GP card or medical card as a first step to universal free GP care - €268.8 million
Introduce an annual ‘Back to School Bonus Child Benefit Payment’ of €140 to help families overcome the costs of education - €84 million in 2020 (full cost €168 million)
Abolish student fees beginning with a €500 reduction in 2020 and abolish apprenticeship and PLC fees - €11.8 million in 2020 (full first year cost €39.3 million) and €9 million respectively.
Free fares for 5 to 18 year olds on Bus Eireann, Irish Rail, Dublin Bus, the Dart, the Luas and others
Extend the Fuel Allowance scheme by two additional weeks - €16.8 million

And on and on it goes. Anybody who votes for this nonsense and actually believes half of it needs their head examined. That's after they've overlooked the connection with terrorism, of course.

James Brown

smurgen wrote: »

Marxist dogma hahaha. Was it Marxist dogma when finna fail bailed out the banks nationalising the debt? Or when fg continued to bail out junior bond holders? A decision so off the wall we now cannot afford to invest in key infrastructure.

That's acceptable to them, it's doing a turn for the lowly tax payer that's a bridge too far.

James Brown

RandomName2 wrote: »

Taken straight from their website:

We will stop the pension age increase to 67 and return it to 65.

We will take 1 million workers out of the USC by abolishing the USC on the first €30,000 you earn.

We will reduce the cost of childcare by an average of €500 per child per month.

We will extend paid maternity leave to 52 weeks and increase maternity benefit by €50.

We will abolish the property tax.

We will build 100,000 homes over 5 years.

Our manifesto has been costed by the relevant government departments and is affordable and can be delivered. There will be no borrowing necessary. In fact we will run surpluses and have a surplus of more than €3bn in 2025. All taxpayers who earn under €100,000 will see a decrease in their tax of up to €700 a year.

Sounds like a move in the right direction. Thanks for posting.

RandomName2

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Sounds like a move in the right direction. Thanks for posting.

It's wonderful stuff right? Personally I think they are doing themselves a disservice when they say they'll only have a surplus of €3 billion in 2025. That's a pessimistic outlook. More realistically we are talking about a surplus of €10-20 billion.

Skylinehead

Question about the manifesto:

SF claim they will build 100,000 houses, at a cost of €6.5 billion.

Am I missing something? There's no way you can build a house for 65 grand.

efanton

johnmcdnl wrote: »

I'd love all these things too.
It's just that SFs mannifesto doesn't mention where the money for all these initatives will come from. If you spend 5 mins flicking through their manifesto they just released you'll see roughly 110 pages worth of tax cuts and social improvements.
The only way to fund these changes are by increasing taxes on people over 140k, and extra taxes on REITs, and increasing taxes on corporations as a whole. I'm not even sure the numbers balance out, but lets give them the benefit of the doubt that they do.
That will mean our entire taxes are essentially funded by a tiny number of small corporations, REITs etc, and large businesses and rich folk. If any of those large corporations or rich people leave Ireland we will be absolutely screwed because our tax base will be so reliant on them.

Now lets say we go with this plan, imagine also how much leverage that would give the rich and large corporations if they realise that if they leave they'll crash the Irish economy. How much political leverage will that give them?

It's wonderful all the things that SF promise us, I'll be the first to admit that. I'm just not convinced in any way shape or form that how it will be funded is even realistic, and even if it is, whether that's better for us, as if anything happens to the tiny % that will pay all the taxes, how that'll impact us all.

Now lets imagine we give SF a chance with their policies - and it turns out their numbers don't add up and we are hemorrhaging money, and international businesses and corporations have been driven out due to these policies. Is there any hope we'll ever bring them back? As much as we might dislike the corporations they do provide a massive number of jobs and account for a huge segment of our economy. How will we try to recover from the damage that is done if they are no longer here or have massively reduced their presence? That could be potentially one hell of a problem that I hope we don't ever have to face, and really don't want to gamble with the possibility of it happening either.

Hold on a minute.

The SF manifesto is independently costed by an auditing company (KPMG, Deloitte, PWC etc) as well by the department of finance run by a FG government. As are all the alternative budgets.

The same goes for all the major political parties. FF, FG , LAB, SF.
If you have problems with their numbers and where the money is coming from then you can only point the finger at the Department of Finance or the company that did the audit.

To be fair to SF they are not saying this money is coming from no where. They openly admit to raising taxation, reducing some allowances, and totally axing altogether some existing spending programs.

FF are definitely not as openly honest about additional taxation, and we get that FG do not want to spend any additional money at all if they can possibly get away with it so its easy for them to use the argument that other parties raise taxes.

But if people want better services, more social housing, and a reduction of the burden of taxation on those that least can afford it they have to accept that increased taxes, or restructuring of tax bands is the only way to do it. Most understand that and agree with that if those improvement are actually delivered.
The problem is previous governments have made promises that they never came close to delivering.

baldbear

This is top quality auction politics. We have kids in crèche and know a statement like reducing childcare by €500 per child is complete bs.

Blazer

Skylinehead wrote: »

Question about the manifesto:

SF claim they will build 100,000 houses, at a cost of €6.5 billion.

Am I missing something? There's no way you can build a house for 65 grand.

Well if the option is to do it or get kneecapped I imagine the devs will go for the wise option

RandomName2

baldbear wrote: »

This is top quality auction politics. We have kids in crèche and know a statement like reducing childcare by €500 per child is complete bs.

So I've looked up where they intend to get all the money to pay for their giveaway budget.

The two most significant items are:

Tax intangible assets onshored by multinationals - €722 million
Increase Stamp Duty on commercial property to 10% while retaining reliefs for farmers - €376m

And the rest is essentially from raising the tax rate from 40% to 45% (and removing tax credits) on everyone earning more than 100K (about 14% of the population).

Not only does that not seem any way close to covering the vast spending and cuts proposed, but a more robust discussion on the implications of those policies I think is merited.

efanton

RandomName2 wrote: »

So I've looked up where they intend to get all the money to pay for their giveaway budget.

The two most significant items are:

Tax intangible assets onshored by multinationals - €722 million
Increase Stamp Duty on commercial property to 10% while retaining reliefs for farmers - €376m

And the rest is essentially from raising the tax rate from 40% to 45% (and removing tax credits) on everyone earning more than 100K (about 14% of the population).

Not only does that not seem any way close to covering the vast spending and cuts proposed, but a more robust discussion on the implications of those policies I think is merited.

they are not proposing spending cuts, where did you get that idea?

RandomName2

efanton wrote: »

they are not proposing spending cuts, where did you get that idea?

They are proposing cuts. I should have put a comma after spending

James Brown

RandomName2 wrote: »

It's wonderful stuff right? Personally I think they are doing themselves a disservice when they say they'll only have a surplus of €3 billion in 2025. That's a pessimistic outlook. More realistically we are talking about a surplus of €10-20 billion.

Move in the right direction.
Think of how many FG style hospitals they can build...one?

James Brown

Blazer wrote: »

Well if the option is to do it or get kneecapped I imagine the devs will go for the wise option

What did you mean by 'welfare class'?

facehugger99

Skylinehead wrote: »

Question about the manifesto:

SF claim they will build 100,000 houses, at a cost of €6.5 billion.

Am I missing something? There's no way you can build a house for 65 grand.

Once the money-trees are harvested, they can be felled as used as lumber in the housing construction sector.