People like SF candidates but won't vote for SF

blanch152

Bishop of hope wrote: »

But it's been done before, auction politics.

Yes, we had auction politics before, the people followed the Bertie bus and we ended up with the crash in 2008.

This time, Sinn Fein are playing the Pied Piper role and indulging in promises to everyone. Will the Irish public have learned anything?

what2do

piplip87 wrote: »

Jaysus they want to raise to dole to 245 a week ? Looking after the key demographic right there

Once they increase corporation taxes and many of the multinationals leave the country this will be a lovely softner for all those who lose their jobs!!!!!!!!

piplip87

what2do wrote: »

Once they increase corporation taxes and many of the multinationals leave the country this will be a lovely softner for all those who lose their jobs!!!!!!!!

No in fairness they have in Thier manifesto to keep it at 12.5% and to resist any changes to it by the EU.

is_that_so

piplip87 wrote: »

Jaysus they want to raise to dole to 245 a week ? Looking after the key demographic right there

The message is well-calibrated to appeal both to the unwaged and the so-called working poor (those on under €30k). It's also a tacit acceptance that their appeal falls away in higher economic brackets.

gormdubhgorm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You can try be whimsical about how sad it is in your view that we must deal with FF/FG like a fait accompli, but I believe we deserve better and should work for better.
Your attitude is why 10, 20, 30, years ago we were in the same boat. It starts with one person and grows from there. Waiting in the bushes to see if a sure winner is coming along is nuts and has us where we are. Glad you're enjoying the FF/FG **** show.

You call it a **** show but the reality is many of the electorate are happy with the status quo compared to alternatives and the question marks they raise.
That is just a fact.
I think part of a problem is there are too many micky mouse smaller parties which breaks up other voting blocks. There should be mergers in reality. But instead we have seen the rise of independents to fill the vacuum.

machaseh

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You call it a **** show but the reality is many of the electorate are happy with the status quo compared to alternatives and the question marks they raise.
That is just a fact.
I think part of a problem is there are too many micky mouse smaller parties which breaks up other voting blocks. There should be mergers in reality. But instead we have seen the rise of independents to fill the vacuum.

Even so, voting SF is by far the best option to get a different course in this country and break the perpetual FF/FG right wing pro corporate course in this country.

marieholmfan

machaseh wrote: »

Even so, voting SF is by far the best option to get a different course in this country and break the perpetual FF/FG right wing pro corporate course in this country.

People who remember Tim Parry, Johnathon Ball, Nicky Mountbatten, Paul Maxwell and other children killed by the IRA find making that choice harder than you can appreciate.

It is of course a fact that 4 children in 5 killed during the troubles were killed by the British and their proxies (this is just pre whataboutery whatabotery); the first child killed Patrick Rooney was killed by the RUC , the Quinn brothers were killed because their mother was a Catholic.

If the UVF promised council houses for all , workers control of the means of production , AI driven capacity planning in government, decentralised free health care etc. etc. I don't know if I would vote for them.

Corcaigh84

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/columnists/david-davin-power-mcdonald-plans-for-a-parallel-reality-978349.html

Am I right or wrong in saying SF are the first party to flirt with abolishing USC (up to 30k limit)? I'm sure this will prick a lot of ears...

FrancieBrady

marieholmfan wrote: »

People who remember Tim Parry, Johnathon Ball, Nicky Mountbatten, Paul Maxwell and other children killed by the IRA find making that choice harder than you can appreciate.

It is of course a fact that 4 children in 5 killed during the troubles were killed by the British and their proxies (this is just pre whataboutery whatabotery); the first child killed Patrick Rooney was killed by the RUC , the Quinn brothers were killed because their mother was a Catholic.

If the UVF promised council houses for all , workers control of the means of production , AI driven capacity planning in government, decentralised free health care etc. etc. I don't know if I would vote for them.

UVF are a political party?

McMurphy

thefloss wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/columnists/david-davin-power-mcdonald-plans-for-a-parallel-reality-978349.html

Am I right or wrong in saying SF are the first party to flirt with abolishing USC (up to 30k limit)? I'm sure this will prick a lot of ears...

Fg were the first to flirt with it in 16, against the advise of the other big two (FF/SF) who said it couldn't be done as it wouldn't be financially possible.

ELM327

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Over exaggerating much?

The new government will be a coalition or confidence and supply.
The essence of a proper coalition/C&S is one where each keeps an eye on the other.
That is what we got wrong...far too many party's too happy to stay in coalitions where one component was doing damage. FF-FG, FF-Greens, FG-Lab, SF-DUP etc. because essentially the 'seats' were comfy.
You do your best to compromise and govern, if the coalition/C&S is failing - you walk and go back to the people.

If party's keep in mind their commitments to those who elected them and pull the plug on bad governance, then you and I will not be overly damaged.

What chances have we of getting a coalition/C&S like that? It's clear to me anyhow, that both main parties are afraid of that 'essence'. They will resist a coalition with a party that is not afraid to walk or be walked over. For them coalition is about dominance.

We need a change.

SF are ridiculous. They are socialist. No socialist economy is free.
Large companies will leave. Anyone earning a "high" salary will be taxed to the hilt.


I'd prefer any other party, literally any other, (except Aointu as that's SF lite) than SF

suicide_circus

thefloss wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/columnists/david-davin-power-mcdonald-plans-for-a-parallel-reality-978349.html

Am I right or wrong in saying SF are the first party to flirt with abolishing USC (up to 30k limit)? I'm sure this will prick a lot of ears...

we cant further narrow the tax base for the love of god

marieholmfan

suicide_circus wrote: »

we cant further narrow the tax base for the love of god

CORRECT!
In a social democracy everyone pays in according to what they can afford and everyone gets what they need.
Everyone has to pay something!

is_that_so

McMurphy wrote: »

Fg were the first to flirt with it in 16, against the advise of the other big two (FF/SF) who said it couldn't be done as it wouldn't be financially possible.

Yeah it was in their manifesto but not done outright, in increments.

McMurphy

is_that_so wrote: »

Yeah it was in their manifesto but not done outright, in increments.

But still the first to flirt with it.

gormdubhgorm

machaseh wrote: »

Even so, voting SF is by far the best option to get a different course in this country and break the perpetual FF/FG right wing pro corporate course in this country.

Yeah but SF are not a normal party. Paramilitary shadow, playing two different strategies in two different jurisdictions, two different leaders. It is a very difficult tightrope they have to walk.

That is before you get into the fact that thier main demographic (in the ROI) is working class and/or a republican nature. Then they have to decide if they can keep the core republican stereotype while trying to target the middle classes in the ROI.
They have themselves in knots no matter which way they go.

The first two things I think of when I think of SF is paramilitary shadow and fanciful economics.
As I said in a previous post I voted for Martin McGuinness in the 2011 Presidential election - because I had respect for the fella he was honest upfront (unlike Gerry) and not afraid to take risks and move things forward.
To me it was not the same as voting for SF in the dail as well so that was also a factor.

Mary Lou is not in my constituency but if she was I would not vote for her she just strikes me as a political opportunist moving from FF. Also she seems high on soundbites/cliches - just my opinion. Plus she will be hamstrung by the make up of SF it's history etc if she tried to make real changes even if SF somehow got in power.
Plus she will also have to moderate the small changes she can make as she would be a junior partner in government with an other.

is_that_so

McMurphy wrote: »

But still the first to flirt with it.

Yeah, but enough sense to add that they wouldn't do it outright. It was actually a bit of a Trump-Obama approach in that they blamed FF for it. One of the better things FF did anyway.

facehugger99

piplip87 wrote: »

Jaysus they want to raise to dole to 245 a week ? Looking after the key demographic right there

Given that most people who vote SF are poorly educated and work shy, one would have to question SF's desire to improve education or the job-market if they ever got into Government

They'd be cutting down on their own vote.

FrancieBrady

ELM327 wrote: »

SF are ridiculous. They are socialist. No socialist economy is free.
Large companies will leave. Anyone earning a "high" salary will be taxed to the hilt.


I'd prefer any other party, literally any other, (except Aointu as that's SF lite) than SF

'They are socialist'? What does that scare tag mean anymore?

I don't think there is a party in Ireland that is all one thing. They are just tags, generally used to demean, or handwave away.

'Large companies will leave' - 'taxed to the hilt'?

You are good at the scary stuff anyhow.

ELM327

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'They are socialist'? What does that scare tag mean anymore?

I don't think there is a party in Ireland that is all one thing. They are just tags, generally used to demean, or handwave away.

'Large companies will leave' - 'taxed to the hilt'?

You are good at the scary stuff anyhow.

They are socialist.
Sinn Féin is a 32-County party striving for an end to partition on the island of Ireland and the establishment of a democratic socialist republic

from https://www.sinnfein.ie/what-sinn-fein-stands-for


They have previously campaigned for a 5% wealth levy on "high earners". In addition to the 52% combined tax. This is mentioned in their manifesto.



They have also previously campaigned for an increase in corporate tax rates. This will result in a drop in FDI, where 500,000 of the 1.7m (~30%) jobs in Ireland are directly or indirectly based.


Call it scary if you wish. I happen to agree, it is scary. It's also the reality of any SF/socialist government.

ELM327

facehugger99 wrote: »

Given that most people who vote SF are poorly educated and work shy, one would have to question SF's desire to improve education or the job-market if they ever got into Government

They'd be cutting down on their own vote.

IN the south this is true for sure!

blanch152

McMurphy wrote: »

Fg were the first to flirt with it in 16, against the advise of the other big two (FF/SF) who said it couldn't be done as it wouldn't be financially possible.

Indeed, that was one of the reasons I didn't give FG a first preference last time out.

This time out, it is Sinn Fein that are making the ridiculous impossible promises.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'They are socialist'? What does that scare tag mean anymore?

I don't think there is a party in Ireland that is all one thing. They are just tags, generally used to demean, or handwave away.

'Large companies will leave' - 'taxed to the hilt'?

You are good at the scary stuff anyhow.

They are a socialist party that wants to abolish the only wealth tax in Ireland!!!

You couldn't make it up.

FrancieBrady

ELM327 wrote: »

They are socialist.
Sinn Féin is a 32-County party striving for an end to partition on the island of Ireland and the establishment of a democratic socialist republic

from https://www.sinnfein.ie/what-sinn-fein-stands-for


They have previously campaigned for a 5% wealth levy on "high earners". In addition to the 52% combined tax. This is mentioned in their manifesto.



They have also previously campaigned for an increase in corporate tax rates. This will result in a drop in FDI, where 500,000 of the 1.7m (~30%) jobs in Ireland are directly or indirectly based.


Call it scary if you wish. I happen to agree, it is scary. It's also the reality of any SF/socialist government.

They are all a bit of everything in this country, as far as I can see. Usually when it suits them to be.

I see FG have chosen not to tie themselves to any ideology on their site.

Fine Gael is a party of the progressive centre. That means we act in a way that is right for Ireland, regardless of dogma or ideology.

I'd imagine they will all move in that direction as the old 'tags' no longer work in the modern age.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They are all a bit of everything in this country, as far as I can see. Usually when it suits them to be.

I see FG have chosen not to tie themselves to any ideology on their site.




I'd imagine they will all move in that direction as the old 'tags' no longer work in the modern age.

So Fine Gael are out in front in terms of messaging?

golfball37

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah but SF are not a normal party. Paramilitary shadow, playing two different strategies in two different jurisdictions, two different leaders. It is a very difficult tightrope they have to walk.

That is before you get into the fact that thier main demographic is working class and/or a republican nature. Then they have to decide if they can keep the core republican stereotype while trying to target the middle classes in the ROI.
They have themselves in knots no matter which way they go.

The first two things I think of when I think of SF is paramilitary shadow and fanciful economics.
As I said in a previous post I voted for Martin McGuinness in the 2011 Presidential election - because I had respect for the fella he was honest upfront (unlike Gerry) and not afraid to take risks and move things forward.
To me it was not the same as voting for SF in the dail as well so that was also a factor.

Mary Lou is not in my constituency but if she was I would not vote for her she just strikes me as a political opportunistic moving from FF. Also she seems high on soundbites/cliches - just my opinion. Plus she will be hamstrung by the make up of SF it's history etc if she tried to make real changes even if SF somehow got in power.
Plus she will also have to moderate the small changes she can make as she would be a junior partner in government with an other.

Sounds exactly like how I would have described FF if I were alive in 1930ish. I reckon FF populism and all things to all people approach is what SF have based their entire strategy on.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

So Fine Gael are out in front in terms of messaging?

At least they got something for all that money paid on image.

Shame so many see them as right wing wealthy millionaires and their vote appears to be falling.

Bishop of hope

FrancieBrady wrote: »

At least they got something for all that money paid on image.

Shame so many see them as right wing wealthy millionaires and their vote appears to be falling.

That's the nature of politics, governments rarely gain in popularity and always eventually lose out.
It will happen to SF too if they ever get in, its not a surprise that governments change and parties go up and down in popularity.

FrancieBrady

Bishop of hope wrote: »

That's the nature of politics, governments rarely gain in popularity and always eventually lose out.
It will happen to SF too if they ever get in, its not a surprise that governments change and parties go up and down in popularity.

Totally agree and always said it too. Lab, SF etc are not a panacea for all ills.

I actually think rotation in politics is a good thing. Problem here is that there is no rotation.
Well, there was rotation but as they rotated both of them were getting closer and closer until now we have two almost identical political parties swapping power between them and keeping difference at bay.

Do I think MM is not joining with SF for moral reasons...not a chance, he is doing it to stave off the inevitable. He (and those in FF of similar stance) know that once SF cross the Rubicon and make it into a government that either FF or FG will suffer and decline more. (Much the same dilemma Seamus Mallon spotted and feared at the expense of him getting behind Hume's peace effort)

Edgware

Why do Sinn Fein supporters think that S F should be allowed issue a manifesto without other parties being allowed to examine it and criticise it?
Don't they realise that they are doing democracy now?
The days when they could use their thugs to intimidate and threaten their political opponents ( like they did to Seamus Mallon) are gone