People like SF candidates but won't vote for SF

Naggdefy

Myself and a few friends were chatting about voting SF. If we did and why.

A comment made by a few was that the constant bashing of Sinn Féin in newspapers like the Independent by the likes of Eoghan Harris was actually having the effect of making them vote SF.

Harris and Dudley Edwards write about nothing else and make a living from their agenda.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

At least they got something for all that money paid on image.

Shame so many see them as right wing wealthy millionaires and their vote appears to be falling.

See the problem is that some of that may be true - but the fact is FF/FG are centrist parties they are not solely targeting a narrow demographic - like the 'working class'

If you look at SF's success in Dublin Mid West (Indian country the wild west - strongly working class) in the by-elections Mary Lou described it as 'a good day for the working class'

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/byelections-2019-good-day-for-working-class-as-sfs-mark-ward-takes-dail-seat-967608.html

Irish people in thier nature do not like radical policies left or right. The general Irish electorate prefer slow gradual change. Those on the far left or right are normally viewed as 'head the balls'. The working class might vote for them as they play on disenchantment and the anti establishment vibe.
Places like Clondalkin have a 30% unemployment rate and these are the only areas SF can be really successful in.
There is no FG in Dublin Mid West - two SF, one PBP and only one fly in the 'working class ointment' with one FF.

But these type of consistencies are the exception rather than the rule.

SF do manage to sneak into tightly contested constituencies where they have a mixed demographic (the odd time) - like Dublin Bay North - which contains Howth Clontarf Sutton (middle class) etc v Edenmore Donaghmede (working class).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Bay_North_(D%C3%A1il_constituency)#2016_general_election

In that consistency the @rse had gone out of labour - and that is where the now infamous Catherine 'autistic Leo' Noone of FG is running.
Even so SF only managed to sneak in with Denise Mitchell in 2016 in the 15th count. Bruton (FG) and Haughey (FF) are shoe in's every election

Labour/fomer labour/greens should do better there now as Finian McGrath and Tommy Broughan (both independents) are retiring.
Denise Mitchell looks like she will lose out this time as a more familiar look will take shape in the constituency.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/election-2020-dublin-bay-north-constituency-profile-1.4146506

SF's natural home (in the ROI) will always be the working class constituency like Dublin Mid-West high unemployment and disenchantment etc.
They try and get that vote out.
It is going to be extremely difficult for them to move on from that demographic.
They still paint themselves as 'alternative' and 'anti-establishment' hardly conducive to the middle ground is it?

Could you ever imagine a SF TD in the Dún Laoghaire constituency for example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%BAn_Laoghaire_(D%C3%A1il_constituency)

Local Boyd-Barrett of the PBP has control of the disenfranchised vote - despite being privately educated in St Michael's house.
The other three are FG. Maybe Maria 'Swing' Bailey could lose her seat? But it is never going to be by a SF representative.

That is SF's problem they will only ever be picking from the low hanging fruit of the working class - playing up to them. Never able to move beyond it.

Faugheen

Far be it for me to agree with Leo and Micheál, but the Ard Comhairle is an issue for me and I won’t vote based on that.

I’ve no issue with parties having national execs or any of that craic, but the Sinn Fein Ard Comhairle is the one that dictates policy, I want the elected representatives to be the ones to do that.

If the reign was loosened on the Ard Comhairle then I’d consider them, because I like Mary Lou McDonald as a leader and they have some very good operators like Pearse Doherty and Eoin O Broin - who in my mind is the best politician in the Oireachtas at the moment.

facehugger99

Naggdefy wrote: »

A comment made by a few was that the constant bashing of Sinn Féin in newspapers like the Independent by the likes of Eoghan Harris was actually having the effect of making them vote SF.

They sound very weak-minded.

Would they not make their own decision about it rather than voting to spite a journalist that doesn't even know them?

FTA69

Faugheen wrote: »

Far be it for me to agree with Leo and Micheál, but the Ard Comhairle is an issue for me and I won’t vote based on that.

I’ve no issue with parties having national execs or any of that craic, but the Sinn Fein Ard Comhairle is the one that dictates policy, I want the elected representatives to be the ones to do that.

If the reign was loosened on the Ard Comhairle then I’d consider them, because I like Mary Lou McDonald as a leader and they have some very good operators like Pearse Doherty and Eoin O Broin - who in my mind is the best politician in the Oireachtas at the moment.

That's ridiculous. The Ard Comhairle is elected from the party membership (nominally at least). The idea that TDs should be the sole ones deciding party policy is wrong in my view; they're party members like any other.

This has been a major issue in ruining politics in the UK, a caste of MPs thinking they're the sole arbiters of what Labour (for example) should or shouldn't be doing while the membership exist only to deliver leaflets and knock doors for their benefit. We should have mass participation and democracy in our political parties, they shouldn't just be vehicles for members of parliament.

Naggdefy

facehugger99 wrote: »

They sound very weak-minded.

Would they not make their own decision about it rather than voting to spite a journalist that doesn't even know them?

They are anything but.

They'd have reasoned their opinion but sanctimonious, self congratulatory eejits like Harris can tip a vote.

People who say what about Jean McConville can be very ignorant on history.

One could have said what about Ballyseedy to a Fine Gaeler in the 1960s. Same time span apart and it was a worse state sanctioned atrocity.

smurgen

ELM327 wrote: »

SF are ridiculous. They are socialist. No socialist economy is free.
Large companies will leave. Anyone earning a "high" salary will be taxed to the hilt.


I'd prefer any other party, literally any other, (except Aointu as that's SF lite) than SF

Scandinavian countries say hello.

is_that_so

FTA69 wrote: »

That's ridiculous. The Ard Comhairle is elected from the party membership (nominally at least). The idea that TDs should be the sole ones deciding party policy is wrong in my view; they're party members like any other.

This has been a major issue in ruining politics in the UK, a caste of MPs thinking they're the sole arbiters of what Labour (for example) should or shouldn't be doing while the membership exist only to deliver leaflets and knock doors for their benefit. We should have mass participation and democracy in our political parties, they shouldn't just be vehicles for members of parliament.

MPs and TDs are elected by the people so they do get to choose. A decision about whether to go into government or general policy is fine, one that is about Cabinet/government decisions is not.

gormdubhgorm

Naggdefy wrote: »

Myself and a few friends were chatting about voting SF. If we did and why.

A comment made by a few was that the constant bashing of Sinn Féin in newspapers like the Independent by the likes of Eoghan Harris was actually having the effect of making them vote SF.

Harris and Dudley Edwards write about nothing else and make a living from their agenda.

I have said this myself years ago.
At one stage there was page after page (maybe 8/9 articles) giving out about SF no matter how tenuous. It became laughable. It was not even done subtlety. It was blatant propaganda.

facehugger99 wrote: »

They sound very weak-minded.

Would they not make their own decision about it rather than voting to spite a journalist that doesn't even know them?

I said at the time it would almost make people vote SF it was so ridiculous. And I was told similar to what you were saying that it would be a stupid reason. But I can see how it would backfire if it was taken to extremes.

FrancieBrady

is_that_so wrote: »

MPs and TDs are elected by the people so they do get to choose. A decision about whether to go into government or general policy is fine, one that is about Cabinet/government decisions is not.

Yet when Leo wants to escape responsibility for a decision he says Charlie Flanagan should have consulted the wider party?

When Enda Kenny wants to distance himself from appointing John McNulty to IMMA he says the official responsible 'did not consult the National Executive'?

Utter hypocrisy to try and land a blow on a rival going on here.

Faugheen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yet when Leo wants to escape responsibility for a decision he says Charlie Flanagan should have consulted the wider party?

When Enda Kenny wants to distance himself from appointing John McNulty to IMMA he says the official responsible 'did not consult the National Executive'?

Utter hypocrisy to try and land a blow on a rival going on here.

The ‘wider party’ is the parliamentary party, which he didn’t consult.

How would you feel if the Fine Gael National Executive, people who are NOT elected by the public, was making decisions on how a government department was run?

I wouldn’t call SF a ‘rival’ at all, either. Complete deflection.

FrancieBrady

Faugheen wrote: »

The ‘wider party’ is the parliamentary party, which he didn’t consult.

How would you feel if the Fine Gael National Executive, people who are NOT elected by the public, was making decisions on how a government department was run?

They do. And if they don't, they should be IMO.
The more opinion the better (even if it is along party lines).

As we have seen, 'solo runs' are to be avoided.

Bishop of hope

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Totally agree and always said it too. Lab, SF etc are not a panacea for all ills.

I actually think rotation in politics is a good thing. Problem here is that there is no rotation.
Well, there was rotation but as they rotated both of them were getting closer and closer until now we have two almost identical political parties swapping power between them and keeping difference at bay.

Do I think MM is not joining with SF for moral reasons...not a chance, he is doing it to stave off the inevitable. He (and those in FF of similar stance) know that once SF cross the Rubicon and make it into a government that either FF or FG will suffer and decline more. (Much the same dilemma Seamus Mallon spotted and feared at the expense of him getting behind Hume's peace effort)

Looks to me like they are fast becoming FF themselves going on their manifesto.
But that alright as long as they aren't FF?

FrancieBrady

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Looks to me like they are fast becoming FF themselves going on their manifesto.
But that alright as long as they aren't FF?

Before FF (or the elite of FF) became the party of the Galway tent, yes they are of a type.
That's why I think Michael could have a revolt on his hands if it comes down to a FF/SF coalition. I think S0'R was getting at that too this AM.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Before FF (or the elite of FF) became the party of the Galway tent, yes they are of a type.
That's why I think Michael could have a revolt on his hands if it comes down to a FF/SF coalition. I think S0'R was getting at that too this AM.

But sure there are elite in every party just ask Peadar Tobin!
There is no notion that SF will go into a collation with FF the option will be a mixture all sorts except SF. It will suit the government party(parties) and SF.
SF can still say if we were in power xyz etc.

efanton

Edgware wrote: »

Why do Sinn Fein supporters think that S F should be allowed issue a manifesto without other parties being allowed to examine it and criticise it?
Don't they realise that they are doing democracy now?
The days when they could use their thugs to intimidate and threaten their political opponents ( like they did to Seamus Mallon) are gone

What are you talking about. They have to release their manifesto in order to voters to make a decision.

Are you suggesting that they should give their manifesto to FF FG and other parties before they reveal it to the electorate?
That's never going to happen no matter which party we are talking about.

Also most parties release their manifesto in parts over the course of a campaign. Nothing unusual in that, it's been done like that for years

maccored

is_that_so wrote: »

MPs and TDs are elected by the people so they do get to choose. A decision about whether to go into government or general policy is fine, one that is about Cabinet/government decisions is not.

why not? surely thats why parties get voted in ... you are basically saying the people who vote shouldnt get a say in matters once the votings done. Isnt that how we have got where we are? Plus ... do you call that democracy?

Jinglejangle69

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I have said this myself years ago.
At one stage there was page after page (maybe 8/9 articles) giving out about SF no matter how tenuous. It became laughable. It was not even done subtlety. It was blatant propaganda.



I said at the time it would almost make people vote SF it was so ridiculous. And I was told similar to what you were saying that it would be a stupid reason. But I can see how it would backfire if it was taken to extremes.

As here everyday FG are bashed in newspapers and radio.

The victim mentality of SF is ridiculous.

is_that_so

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They do. And if they don't, they should be IMO.
The more opinion the better (even if it is along party lines).

As we have seen, 'solo runs' are to be avoided.

Best cancel elections so and let party members decide what goes on in the country.

is_that_so

maccored wrote: »

why not? surely thats why parties get voted in ... you are basically saying the people who vote shouldnt get a say in matters once the votings done. Isnt that how we have got where we are? Plus ... do you call that democracy?

We have representative democracy, people elected to make these decisions and we get a say in who they are.

FrancieBrady

is_that_so wrote: »

Best cancel elections so and let party members decide what goes on in the country.

Well if you are naive and foolish enough to think that a political party is some miraculous coming together of like minds, in miraculous synch on every aspect of policy and direction, go ahead and think that.

I live in the real world.

is_that_so

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well if you are naive and foolish enough to think that a political party is some miraculous coming together of like minds, in miraculous synch on every aspect of policy and direction, go ahead and think that.

I live in the real world.

A real world question for you so. Should a party meeting of random people determine current government decisions and policy?

gormdubhgorm

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

As here everyday FG are bashed in newspapers and radio.

The victim mentality of SF is ridiculous.

It is definitely not victim mentality it happened it was page after page of numerous tenuous angles to attack SF in the Indo.

I am not a supporting of any particular party but I just stating what I saw in paper. It was taken to silly levels and very obvious - SF dig after SF dig.
They almost had to invent a narrative for new attack on the next page.

I will probably vote FG this election because I think Flanagan and Varadkar are trying to move Ireland forward like the DMP/RIC commemoration.

Found thread where Indo attacks on SF were discussed (six years ago)-

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=92975895

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't disagree with you suggesting that we deserve better than Fianna Fail or Fine Gael, but why would you aim for worse in Sinn Fein?

Not my first choice but it's hard to listen to people talking up FG and FF like they are a better option.

FrancieBrady

is_that_so wrote: »

A real world question for you so. Should a party meeting of random people determine current government decisions and policy?

'Random people'? No, of course not.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Is someone promising a €100 conservation grant for Irish Water in this election?

If not, the point stands that Sinn Fein are the only party giving away money that nobody asked for.

Are we sticking to this election and issues relating to it? Oh good. Sick of the troubles coming up.

is_that_so

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They do. And if they don't, they should be IMO.
The more opinion the better (even if it is along party lines).

As we have seen, 'solo runs' are to be avoided.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Random people'? No, of course not.

That's pretty much what you've advocated.

James Brown

is_that_so wrote: »

The message is well-calibrated to appeal both to the unwaged and the so-called working poor (those on under €30k). It's also a tacit acceptance that their appeal falls away in higher economic brackets.

How many unwaged are there and how long are they unwaged? Hardly a number worth pandering to I'd expect.
The 'so-called' working poor are working tax payers who can't get by under FG. About time somebody looked after the 'so-called' tax payer.

is_that_so

Matt Barrett wrote: »

How many unwaged are there and how long are they unwaged? Hardly a number worth pandering to I'd expect.
The 'so-called' working poor are working tax payers who can't get by under FG. About time somebody looked after the 'so-called' tax payer.

Except they want to tax the tax payer, well the ones who won't vote for them.

James Brown

is_that_so wrote: »

Except they want to tax the tax payer, well the ones who won't vote for them.

That's a nonsense comment. They are taking more for the top tier, sounds good.