People like SF candidates but won't vote for SF

RandomName2

SantaCruz wrote: »

But FFG!!

No that's not it. :mad:

Take a spin on the Sinn Fein supporter wheel of justification!

Will it land on:

• That's ancient history!
• Using victims to attack Sinn Fein makes you as bad as the perpetrators
• Fianna Fail and Fine Gael were guilty of misdemeanors in the past
• The victim is a liar who should not be believed, a common criminal who had what was coming to them, or a traitor.
• That was the dissidents
• You're only saying this because you are a West-Brit

Watch it spin.. round and round.. and it lands on..

Using victims to attack Sinn Fein makes you as bad as the perpetrators

Better luck next time SantaCruz!

Idbatterim

WHEJ the establishment won’t listen and put hundreds of thousands in **** positions, you are surprised when there is anger and a backlash. Fg are driving voters away from themselves. They are causing the shift. Don’t you agree ?

James Brown

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

There is a good article here written by Maria Cahill in the Indo.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/breege-quinn-finally-forced-mary-lou-into-a-corner-but-it-took-an-election-not-simple-human-decency-from-sf-to-get-an-apology-38929296.html

It sums up the effort a mother had to make just to get a simple apology, after constant denial, misdirection, and fudges.

Ah jaysus...
We almost had an election discussion happening.

RandomName2

armaghlad wrote: »

I happily vote Sinn Féin. A grassroots party that wants to help the people most in need. Not a shower of brown-envelope passing, self-entitled, holier than thou, money-loving elitists like FFG. You can bring the Ra into it until the cows come home, the fact this all the west-Brits have shows how much they are panicking. You love to see it

Ah, the wheel of justification lands on

You're only saying this because you are a West-Brit

Congratulations mynamejeff, this one comes up quite seldom. Mainly because of the candid approval of terrorism on the part of the supporter.

Cheerful Spring2

SantaCruz wrote: »

Funny enough, I just ran the numbers on another thread - bear in mind that the 40 billion can most definitely be laid at FF's door, but anyway:


So of the 170 billion increase in public debt since 2008:

41 billion or so was FF causing the property crash requiring the bank bailout

129 bilion was FF (until 2011) then FG and Labour (until 2016) and then FG (until today) borrowing to keep paying for the dole, pensions, health service etc.

I not on Social welfare, doesn't affect me.

Reality check.
In 2007, Ireland had long term employment stats and there was significant (high cost) welfare benefit handed out- (same as today) The national debt was 40 billion.

The banking crisis in 2008, the result, the bailout since has cost 150 billion. Irish government had to borrow more cash to support the economy and pay back the interest on an enormous loan. 

Social welfare bill was always high in Ireland, but it was managed before the banks sucked Ireland dry. 

SantaCruz

Idbatterim wrote: »

No he thinks we should be getting far better value for money for the taxpayer ! Wouldn’t you agree ?!

What does that mean, though? That's just a slogan.

Where do we get free money to build? (never mind free workers to do it)

SantaCruz

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Nope we should be building. A better deal for the tax payer. Since when is leasing en masse for 25 years cheaper than building en masse? Do you think the people leasing the apartments built them to make a loss?

'Nope we should be building.'

With what money?

This is like drawing teeth.

marieholmfan

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

There is a good article here written by Maria Cahill in the Indo.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/breege-quinn-finally-forced-mary-lou-into-a-corner-but-it-took-an-election-not-simple-human-decency-from-sf-to-get-an-apology-38929296.html

It sums up the effort a mother had to make just to get a simple apology, after constant denial, misdirection, and fudges.

Why wasn't this raised with Micheal Martin given Bertie Ahern's remarks on the matter?

Greyfox

SantaCruz wrote: »

What's a bit of murder between friends, eh?

I never said murder was ok

mynamejeff wrote: »

convicted armed robber and terrorist gives practical and moral support convicted murderers and you want to put these people in charge of the country ?

best give your own moral compass a slap there , it seems to be off

Nonsense, the politics of Northern Ireland is more complicated than that and Northern Ireland is completely seperate from the Irish ecomomy. The biggest issue facing Ireland right now is the housing crisis, we need to build build and build some more and SF are the only people really listening to Irish people who can't afford a home.

gormdubhgorm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Ah jaysus...
We almost had an election discussion happening.

They tried your tactic of ignoring the unpalatable for 13 years look how that worked...

The same SF play book is used ignore-deny-discredit-blame-u turn-apology (when expedient) - offer to meet the family - and hope it blows over

SantaCruz

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

I not on Social welfare, doesn't affect me.

Reality check.
In 2007, Ireland had long term employment stats and there was significant (high cost) welfare benefit handed out- (same as today) The national debt was 40 billion.

The banking crisis in 2008, the result, the bailout since has cost 150 billion. Irish government had to borrow more cash to support the economy and pay back the interest on an enormous loan. 

Social welfare bill was always high in Ireland, but it was managed before the banks sucked Ireland dry. 

Wow.

I posted the actual numbers in this thread only half an hour ago. You could not be more wrong. YOU QUOTE THE CORRECT NUMBERS IN YOUR POST!!

This is amazing. If this is the level of understanding of numbers and facts we have, we are in real trouble as a nation.

Greyfox

SantaCruz wrote: »

'Nope we should be building.'

With what money?

We need to get the money from somewhere, we need to build loads of houses over the next few years otherwise young Irish people are fooked

The Rape of Lucretia

Can anyone clarify : is it implied in SF's dealing with the Paul Quinn afair and Conor Murphy's apology, that SF is saying it was a mistake because they now say he was not involved in criminality ? i.e. if someone is involved in criminality, then it is OK for the IRA to take the law into their own hands and to murder them ?

Idbatterim

SantaCruz wrote: »

What does that mean, though? That's just a slogan.

Where do we get free money to build? (never mind free workers to do it)

The local council have leased apartments in Dundrum at an outrageous price. They have their own land in the area , that they could have built housing on and owned and provided far more units for the same price. U get that ?

SantaCruz

Greyfox wrote: »

We need to get the money from somewhere, we need to build loads of houses over the next few years otherwise young Irish people are fooked

That's not really a great (or practical) answer.

FG didn't have access to free money 'from somewhere' and - here's the thing - Sinn Fein or anyone else won't have it either.

SantaCruz

Idbatterim wrote: »

The local council have leased apartments in Dundrum at an outrageous price. They have their own land in the area , that they could have built housing on and owned and provided far more units for the same price. U get that ?

With what money?

Idbatterim

SantaCruz wrote: »

With what money?

The money that these idiots have already spent on the 25 year lease

SantaCruz

Idbatterim wrote: »

The money that these idiots have already spent on the 25 year lease

Do you understand the difference between capital and current spending?

Idbatterim

SantaCruz wrote: »

Do you understand the difference between capital and current spending?

YEAh. SO borrow the money!

James Brown

SantaCruz wrote: »

'Nope we should be building.'

With what money?

This is like drawing teeth.

The money we spend on 25 year leases, hotel Bills. Maybe raise tax on vulture funds?
They money we use to buy houses rather than build?

James Brown

SantaCruz wrote: »

Do you understand the difference between capital and current spending?

You know we paid 90% up front right?

Cheerful Spring2

SantaCruz wrote: »

Wow.

I posted the actual numbers in this thread only half an hour ago. You could not be more wrong. YOU QUOTE THE CORRECT NUMBERS IN YOUR POST!!

This is amazing. If this is the level of understanding of numbers and facts we have, we are in real trouble as a nation.

I'd read one newspaper from 2007 and reported over 40 billion. Another website says 60 billion.

Either way, Ireland welfare was high in the years, before reaching 2007.

Why single out social welfare, for the increase of 170 billion? The national debt was only 40 to 60 billion before the emergency in 2008?

Obviously the bank bailout caused that jump, yes/ no?

SantaCruz

Idbatterim wrote: »

YEAh. SO borrow the money!

Cool.

So we go to the markets and say, hey we are the third most indebted country in the world - please increase our national debt even further. Oh, and jack up the interest on ALL our debt because we just became a riskier borrower.

I don't think that's a great idea, but thanks at least for clarifying what you mean.

James Brown

SantaCruz wrote: »

That's not really a great (or practical) answer.

FG didn't have access to free money 'from somewhere' and - here's the thing - Sinn Fein or anyone else won't have it either.

Shook the money tree for Irish water, consultants and the siteserv deal loss
Orchard for the NCH

SantaCruz

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

I'd read one newspaper from 2007 and reported over 40 million. Another website says 60 billion.

Either way, Ireland welfare was high in the years, before reaching 2007.

Why single out social welfare, for the increase of 170 billion? The national debt was only 40 to 60 billion before the emergency in 2008?

Obviously the bank bailout caused that jump, yes/ no?

No.

C&AG’s annual report puts cost of post-2008 crash bailout under the microscope again
Wed, Oct 2, 2019, 05:15


The total cost of these bailouts – which started in 2009 and covered AIB, Anglo Irish Bank, Bank of Ireland, EBS (now part of AIB), Irish Life & Permanent (since separated into Irish Life and Permanent TSB) and Irish Nationwide Building Society – amounted to €64 billion.

By the end of last year, the net cost stood at €41.7 billion, when disposals of equity and shares are taken into account, along with dividend payments, and a range of fees paid to the State.

The cost of servicing the debt amounts to between €1.1 billion and €1.3 billion a year. Even in this low interest rate environment. The C&AG puts it at €420 million for each percentage point that the State pays on its debt.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/was-it-worth-paying-41-7bn-to-bail-out-irish-banks-1.4036792

(also I didn't 'single out social welfare' - I mentioned 'social welfare, pensions, health service, etc')

SantaCruz

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Shook the money tree for Irish water, consultants and the siteserv deal loss

How much does all that add up to?

Also, are you sure you want a health service with no consultants?

Cheerful Spring2

SantaCruz wrote: »

No.



https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/was-it-worth-paying-41-7bn-to-bail-out-irish-banks-1.4036792

(also I didn't 'single out social welfare' - I mentioned 'social welfare, pensions, health service, etc')

Collapse added 170 billion to the national debt, then social welfare, pensions, health service was not the source. Ireland had  40 to 60 billion national debt in 2007. All these were paid back then too. 

Granny15

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I guess we can sum up the reasons then as :

• most people are unwilling to vote for people confortable being, or associating with, murderers and terrorists
• most people prefer their representatives and parties to be from this country rather than being obsessed with a foreign one and taking it over, or having its heartland support abroad
• there is a limit of about 25% of Ireland interested in electing left flavoured parties
• most people recognise that SF, aside from their unsavoury aspects, actually offer nothing new that is not already available to them from the respectable parties
• most are deterred by the idea of a government party not having confidence in the justice system
• there is an offputting whiff about SF that the absence of substance or cogent costings to political proposals, is indicative that they are making it up as they go along, and will say anything on the basis that if it leads to a 32 country Ireland, then, anything goes. Whats a lie or fictional economics when you are prepared to murder and maim?
• their polticians sound even more weasely and slipperily dishonest than even the politicians of all other parties. Hard to believe I know. But true.
• the worry behind it all that you woudnt really get public representatives if you vote for them. You get stooges, who are controled by either a central council that determines what they will think and say, or worse, by a foreign army council who just see Dails SF TDs as another weapon in their battle for 'Brits Out' of Northern Ireland.

Anyone voting SF, really need to take adeep breath and consider the magnitude of the error with which they are toying.

You seem so confident you know what the majority of people want yet your party lags in the polls. FG supporters are saddos and bitter and try to frighten people like you and your pals on this site are doing. It’s not working though and it drives you and your friends on here to post even more bile. Keep on posting and know this your self entitled days are in the past and you will have a bitter pill to swallow on Election Day. Enjoy paying for those you hate most in this world. Hopefully you be paying for them until that day comes that you give in realise you’re in cloud cuckoo land and we’re never really in the hearts and minds of the people of this country- you bought votes and were jettisoned into power in 08 afterFF poor performance. FG are hated and rightly so

Bishop of hope

Granny15 wrote: »

You seem so confident you know what the majority of people want yet your party lags in the polls. FG supporters are saddos and bitter and try to frighten people like you and your pals on this site are doing. It’s not working though and it drives you and your friends on here to post even more bile. Keep on posting and know this your self entitled days are in the past and you will have a bitter pill to swallow on Election Day. Enjoy paying for those you hate most in this world. Hopefully you be paying for them until that day comes that you give in realise you’re in cloud cuckoo land and we’re never really in the hearts and minds of the people of this country- you bought votes and were jettisoned into power in 08 afterFF poor performance. FG are hated and rightly so

What you smoking there. Where were you in 08?

SantaCruz

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Collapse added 170 billion to the national debt, then social welfare, pensions, health service was not the source. Ireland had  40 to 60 billion national debt in 2007. All these were paid back then too. 

Yes, agreed.

Ireland's very generous social welfare system was being funded by unsustainable taxes. The taxes disappeared with the crash, but the cost of social welfare etc. was still there, and cuts were minimal.

The gap between taxes and costs was borrowed - that's the 130 billion or so.

I'd be concerned that if we start punishing higer earners and big employers more (most pay over 50% in marginal tax already) then we will once again slash the amount of tax we take as they leave the country, leave a massive debt, and nobody to pay it, and nobody to pay for social services.