People like SF candidates but won't vote for SF

Snow Garden

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The context of Come out Ye Black and Tans during this election is clearly a (pretty juvenile) reference to Charlie Flanagan's recent attempted commemoration.

The song doesn't make reference to the Provos at all.

It is quite normal for people to celebrate and remember their country gaining independence from a coloniser. Across the world, from the US to India, it is perfectly normal to celebrate this, often through song.

While chanting, 'ooh ah up the RA' certainly isn't the kind of statesman like conduct I would expect from my government, the amount of Helen Lovejoy-esque hand wringing is fairly pathetic, never mind the hypocrisy of many who were happy to attend centenary celebrations across the country.

Or maybe, just maybe it is just any excuse to throw mud at SF.

What?? That's very naive.

He said clearly 'Up the Ra, tiochaidh ar la'. It wasn't part of a chant/song. It was a terrible idea by a sitting SF TD. It was terrible timing. It has dented the SF celebrations. Mary Lou and Pearse are livid. FFG will use the stunt as an excuse not to enter into a coalition with SF.

FrancieBrady

Snow Garden wrote: »

What?? That's very naive.

He said clearly 'Up the Ra, tiochaidh ar la'. It wasn't part of a chant/song. It was a terrible idea by a sitting SF TD. It was terrible timing. It has dented the SF celebrations. Mary Lou and Pearse are livid. FFG will use the stunt as an excuse not to enter into a coalition with SF.

It was terrible timing, no doubt about it.

The faux surprise that a Shinner might mention the RA is hilarious though.

Fionn1952

Snow Garden wrote: »

What?? That's very naive.

He said clearly 'Up the Ra, tiochaidh ar la'. It wasn't part of a chant/song. It was a terrible idea by a sitting SF TD. It was terrible timing. It has dented the SF celebrations. Mary Lou and Pearse are livid. FFG will use the stunt as an excuse not to enter into a coalition with SF.

I don't disagree that it was a terrible idea, like I said, juvenile nonsense which I wouldn't consider very statesmanlike. Let me be clear, I'm not defending the actual chanting itself - Mary Lou and Pearse are right to be livid.

You're also completely right that FF/FG will use it as an excuse to avoid going into coalition with SF, which is exactly my point - the faux outrage and hand-wringing is just that, an excuse. It gives FF/FG decent enough optics to avoid doing what they always wanted to avoid doing and protects them from some of the backlash from it.

Stupid idea, yes....but let's be grown up enough to be honest on the motives behind the hand wringing too.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What???????

SF were talking to EU from the get go about what was needed. And the EU responded.

Ah here, there is revisionist history and there is Francie Brady revisionist history.

SF's influence over the Brexit talks was as close to zero as possible aside from some tokenistic five-minute meetings when EU luminaries were in Dublin. In fact, some of their contributions were counter-productive meaning their positive influence was less than zero.

nthclare

Will he loose his credibility?

Should we forget about his rant and get on with it, and just put it down to him being on a bit of an emotional high and accept its just him dealing with his success and put it down to a mix of nerves and elation.

People come out with all kinds of things when they're emotional.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Ah here, there is revisionist history and there is Francie Brady revisionist history.

SF's influence over the Brexit talks was as close to zero as possible aside from some tokenistic five-minute meetings when EU luminaries were in Dublin. In fact, some of their contributions were counter-productive meaning their positive influence was less than zero.

Somebody still isn't over the weekend.

Keep up the SF contribute nothing of merit blanch, it's working. It really is.

Not getting into a spat with you on this again. The record speaks for itself

blanch152

nthclare wrote: »

Will he loose his credibility?

Should we forget about his rant and get on with it, and just put it down to him being on a bit of an emotional high and accept its just him dealing with his success and put it down to a mix of nerves and elation.

People come out with all kinds of things when they're emotional.

It has probably cost him a Ministry. If he was put forward as a Minister, the opposition would go after him.

woohoo!!!

How dare that house wife from Clare seek to better herself and represent other folk in a similar boat! Does she not know her place!

I swear some people have no self awareness, jesus wept

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Somebody still isn't over the weekend.

Keep up the SF contribute nothing of merit blanch, it's working. It really is.

Not getting into a spat with you on this again. The record speaks for itself

Yes, the blank record of Sinn Fein influence on Brexit. Laughable that you even repeat it.

As for the weekend, 12 Greens elected, hopefully that means real action on climate change. Sinn Fein won't be able to abolish the carbon tax.

Kermit.de.frog

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was terrible timing, no doubt about it.

The faux surprise that a Shinner might mention the RA is hilarious though.

Terrible timing?

Jonathan Powell called him an idiot on the radio this morning.

Is he wrong?

FrancieBrady

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Terrible timing?

Jonathan Powell called him an idiot on the radio this morning.

Is he wrong?

Yes he is, he should have known he was handing the faux outragers a little win.


Look, my position here is simple.

I think, and always have thought, that if the IRA are a current threat then the gardai should be raiding SF offices, they should be excluded from northern and southern political and government structures.

And SF would never get a vote from me if I thought the IRA still existed as an organised force influencing a political party.

I ACCEPT the historical existence of the IRA just as I do the existence of loyalist groups, the old IRA, the Blueshirts, etc etc.

And I accept that people see those groups in a different light to me.

Kermit.de.frog

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes he is, he should have known he was handing the faux outragers a little win.


Look, my position here is simple.

I think, and always have thought, that if the IRA are a current threat then the gardai should be raiding SF offices, they should be excluded from northern and southern political and government structures.

And SF would never get a vote from me if I thought the IRA still existed as an organised force influencing a political party.

I ACCEPT the historical existence of the IRA just as I do the existence of loyalist groups, the old IRA, the Blueshirts, etc etc.

And I accept that people see those groups in a different light to me.

What percentage of the Irish population do you think agree with you, just out of curiosity?

What would most think of a person like that?

Scumbag, fool, clown...?

What do you think would best describe how people will feel, particularly younger voters, about someone like that?

I listened to BBC NI out of interest this morning. They are playing it over and over again.

FrancieBrady

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What percentage of the Irish population do you think agree with you, just out of curiosity?

What would most think of a person like that?

Scumbag, fool, clown...?

What do you think would best describe how people will feel, particularly younger voters, about someone like that?

I listened to BBC NI out of interest this morning. They are playing it over and over again.

I'd say the 'percentage' who pretended the cases raised suddenly when SF went ahead in the polls, weren't 'victim exploitation' would be the percentage that will get upset about this.

Professor Moriarty

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What percentage of the Irish population do you think agree with you, just out of curiosity?

What would most think of a person like that?

Scumbag, fool, clown...?

What do you think would best describe how people will feel, particularly younger voters, about someone like that?

I listened to BBC NI out of interest this morning. They are playing it over and over again.

Hang on. I will never vote SF. And shouting "Up the Ra" is simply stupid. And singing Come Out Ye Black And Tans is asinine - especially from Dessie Ellis who should have learned his lesson by now.

I also fundamentally disagree with Francie on many of his defences of SF. But his honest and personal opinion on SF reflects how SF is in transition. I don't want them anywhere near government for a variety of reasons, but knee jerk reactivity isn't going to help them transition away from the past. Calling Cullinane a "scumbag" is a mirror image of Cullinane shouting "Up the Ra".

Kermit.de.frog

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Hang on. I will never vote SF. And shouting "Up the Ra" is simply stupid. And singing Come Out Ye Black And Tans is asinine - especially from Dessie Ellis who should have learned his lesson by now.

I also fundamentally disagree with Francie on many of his defences of SF. But his honest and personal opinion on SF reflects how SF is in transition. I don't want them anywhere near government for a variety of reasons, but knee jerk reactivity isn't going to help them transition away from the past. Calling Cullinane a "scumbag" is a mirror image of Cullinane shouting "Up the Ra".

I didn't call him anything. I asked what most people would think.

Many voters thought it was a vote for housing and health.

Didn't take a few hours for the mask to slip.

I'd also say the SF leadership is FURIOUS with him because they know how damaging that stuff is.

FrancieBrady

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I didn't call him anything. I asked what most people would think.

Many voters thought it was a vote for housing and health.

Didn't take a few hours for the mask to slip.

I'd also say the SF leadership is FURIOUS with him because they know how damaging that stuff is.

What did this 'slipped mask' reveal exactly, that people didn't know.

Professor Moriarty

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I didn't call him anything. I asked what most people would think.

Many voters thought it was a vote for housing and health.

Didn't take a few hours for the mask to slip.

I'd also say the SF leadership is FURIOUS with him because they know how damaging that stuff is.

I'd say they are. Being a broad church of left wingers, people who just want change and nationalists is going to cause them serious problems. And this is reflected in Ellis's and Cullinane's behaviour. Can you imagine McDonald or Doherty shouting "Up the Ra" today? I think a period in government might see a realignment or even a split.

Snow Garden

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was terrible timing, no doubt about it.

The faux surprise that a Shinner might mention the RA is hilarious though.

You're missing the point though.

SF got a lot of new voters in this GE. Many of those new voters will now be spooked. No doubt about that.

FFG will be able to say I told ye so.

And Cullinane's excuse about his comments emanating from a hunger striker who stood for election in Waterford were a nonsense. It made it worse in fact. He couldn't even own the comments.

frillyleaf

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The context of Come out Ye Black and Tans during this election is clearly a (pretty juvenile) reference to Charlie Flanagan's recent attempted commemoration.

The song doesn't make reference to the Provos at all.

It is quite normal for people to celebrate and remember their country gaining independence from a coloniser. Across the world, from the US to India, it is perfectly normal to celebrate this, often through song.

While chanting, 'ooh ah up the RA' certainly isn't the kind of statesman like conduct I would expect from my government, the amount of Helen Lovejoy-esque hand wringing is fairly pathetic, never mind the hypocrisy of many who were happy to attend centenary celebrations across the country.

Or maybe, just maybe it is just any excuse to throw mud at SF.

Imo it is celebrating centenary celebrations, 1916 is a world apart from a TD shouting “up the RA” etc. I would imagine a large portion of people that gave Sinn Féin their first are cringing at the thoughts of a party they have trusted to behave in this way. It comes across as complete thuggery and is a kick in the teeth to anyone’s family that have been affected by the IRA in recent times that a government is now chanting support of the very people that they have been questioned of association with. It was the height of stupidity to do that and has confirmed that Leo Varadkar was right not to be associated with SF as some of their members are a liability. Personally I wouldn’t risk being involved with people that think that is acceptable either. I can imagine Mary and Pearse are furious that the first day after elections that someone in their party behaves so stupidly. Imagine how this looks to other countries!

Technocentral

frillyleaf wrote: »

I’ve heard people saying multiple times that they like certain SF candidates but they won’t vote for them as they are Sinn Fein. Trying to understand why there is such opposite to Sinn Fein? Have looked up online but not getting good info. Surely if someone likes a candidate and what they stand for they should vote for them? Please explain

Hows your humble pie taste?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes he is, he should have known he was handing the faux outragers a little win.


Look, my position here is simple.

I think, and always have thought, that if the IRA are a current threat then the gardai should be raiding SF offices, they should be excluded from northern and southern political and government structures.

And SF would never get a vote from me if I thought the IRA still existed as an organised force influencing a political party.

I ACCEPT the historical existence of the IRA just as I do the existence of loyalist groups, the old IRA, the Blueshirts, etc etc.

And I accept that people see those groups in a different light to me.

The gardai can't just raid Sinn Fein offices even if the IRA are still a threat. The PSNI conclusion that the boys in Belfast still control the party wouldn't be enough evidence to get a warrant and anyway, would Mary-Lou be stupid enough to leave evidence? If she is getting instructions, they are probably delivered in person.

FrancieBrady

Snow Garden wrote: »

SF got a lot of new voters in this GE. Many of those new voters will now be spooked. No doubt about that.

We heard all this in the lead up to the election. Are you STILL in denial about what happened?

Nobody is under any illusion about SF's past. 24.5% of the electorate have said they are not concerned about that past affecting the present or the future.

frillyleaf

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I didn't call him anything. I asked what most people would think.

Many voters thought it was a vote for housing and health.

Didn't take a few hours for the mask to slip.

I'd also say the SF leadership is FURIOUS with him because they know how damaging that stuff is.

I have to agree with you. I feel a lot of people have trusted SF for the first time to vote for housing and health and I say anyone who gave them first preference are rightly spooked seeing this carry on. I know in this day and age people are very quick to be offended by just about anything but feel this is different as behaviour like this can be extremely damaging especially if seen as acceptable. I think she’ll have to discipline him to keep credibility. It must be very difficult working so hard and then have people behaving like this. I know people say things etc when emotional but this is just carelessness and comes across as thuggery

quokula

Snow Garden wrote: »

You're missing the point though.

SF got a lot of new voters in this GE. Many of those new voters will now be spooked. No doubt about that.

FFG will be able to say I told ye so.

And Cullinane's excuse about his comments emanating from a hunger striker who stood for election in Waterford were a nonsense. It made it worse in fact. He couldn't even own the comments.

I hope you're right, but I do worry, having lived through this in Brexit Britain, people made a similar vote based on similar promises by a similar bunch of lying charlatans who used a bunch of empty soundbites and unicorn promises insisting that voting the way they said would lead to more money for healthcare, more housing etc without any slightest hint at a true solution to those crises.

The mask quickly slipped there, the lies became ever more obvious and the massive mistake was completely undeniable. But people refused to admit they made a mistake, got more tribal (thanks to an increase in the politics of division that Sinn Fein are so adept at stoking in Northern Ireland) and just doubled down on it time and again.

I hope Ireland is better than that but it's too early to tell. I do fear for the country.

frillyleaf

Technocentral wrote: »

Hows your humble pie taste?

I started the thread to find out opinions on Sinn Fein, not to knock Sinn Fein. I was trying to find out why people where so opposed to the party while liking the candidates. I quite like Mary Lou and Pearse. Although they didn’t get my first preference I wish them well. I’ve nothing to be humble over I was simply trying to find out more as media seemed quite biased and I’m under 35 so wanted to find out info

FrancieBrady

Anybody gonna tell us what this 'slipped mask' revealed that we didn't already know?

frillyleaf

Snow Garden wrote: »

You're missing the point though.

SF got a lot of new voters in this GE. Many of those new voters will now be spooked. No doubt about that.

FFG will be able to say I told ye so.

And Cullinane's excuse about his comments emanating from a hunger striker who stood for election in Waterford were a nonsense. It made it worse in fact. He couldn't even own the comments.

absolutely. Doesn’t come across well at all. Shows lack of self control. Imagine things getting heated in the Dail and someone becoming emotive and shouting this. lol

Snow Garden

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We heard all this in the lead up to the election. Are you STILL in denial about what happened?

Nobody is under any illusion about SF's past. 24.5% of the electorate have said they are not concerned about that past affecting the present or the future.

If you knew my post history you would know that I am delighted FFG took a beating and that we have broken their cartel.
I didn't vote for SF but I have no issue with people that did. I am also delighted people chose SDs and Greens.

However getting 24% and keeping 24% are two different things. Look back at the local elections to see how fickle that vote is.
Stunts like Cullinane could well trigger a 2nd election very soon. SF needs to mature pretty damn quickly to avoid that.

FrancieBrady

Snow Garden wrote: »

If you knew my post history you would know that I am delighted FFG took a beating and that we have broken their cartel.
I didn't vote for SF but I have no issue with people that did. I am also delighted people chose SDs and Greens.

However getting 24% and keeping 24% are two different things. Look back at the local elections to see how fickle that vote is.
Stunts like Cullinane could well trigger a 2nd election very soon. SF needs to mature pretty damn quickly to avoid that.

So'R just had a discussion on the formation of a government with several TD's from other parties.

This incident or one's like it, didn't feature in the slightest.
The conversation was all about political survival and preferred governments.

seamus

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Anybody gonna tell us what this 'slipped mask' revealed that we didn't already know?

Media: "Sinn Fein have links with the IRA"

Voters: "We know. But let's leave the past behind, everyone has a past"

Cullinane: "Up the RA"

Voters: