National Broadband Ireland : implementation and progress

heavydawson

https://www.businesspost.ie/infrastructure/national-broadband-plan-failing-to-deliver-value-for-money-for-taxpayer-report-to-say-cb4bbcb9

While I'm happily now in fibre-land, I'd have to say there are some good points made. How many of you who eventually connected to NBI fibre got any sort of flyer in the post to let you know fibre was now available at your eircode and with a link to where you could order it?

Instead NBI are letting the reps for Eir/Vodafone drive around and do their marketing/awareness for them. NBI and the government need to go a little more old-school in their marketing efforts IMHO.

I also think they need a VoIP-only wholesale package priced well below the 500 Mbps product, then push through (along with Comreg + Eir) with a copper switch off. There's no reason they couldn't start that process now for the DAs that have gone live.

1. Set a date for copper turn-off (say 2 years from DA going live)
2. Inform people of their options to either retain their landline via VoIP (with a VoIP package at the same or less price as their current landline)
3. In the intervening two years give people time to move over from copper for alarms/phonewatch, etc...

On a positive note, there's been KN vans in the 1km radius around my house every day since the connections started. Uptake seems good (in this area at least), and word of mouth from the initial installs will surely help uptake in the medium->long term.

oscarBravo

I also think they need a VoIP-only wholesale package priced well below the 500 Mbps product...

The challenge there is that the cost of providing such a service, from NBI's perspective, is not significantly lower than the cost of providing the 500Mb/s service - so is it something that they can do cost-effectively? If not, are we prepared to significantly increase the level of subsidy that the state has already committed to?

The conversation about copper switch off is a timely one. ComReg are consulting about it at the moment. This is worth a read as well, particularly the report commissioned by ALTO.

The short version: copper switch off is not a straightforward process, but it will happen.

heavydawson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884945#Comment_118884945

Do you know for sure the VoIP cost is in the same ballpark as the 500Mbps? I understand the installation cost is the same, but surely the likes of NBI can offer a voice only package cheaper than the €50-60 range we see for the (post initial offer) 500 Mbps packages. The wholesale cost is somewhere between €30-40 for the 500 ( There is a specific price in NBI docs, but can't remember). Does it really cost that much to provide a basic VoIP service?

oscarBravo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118885094#Comment_118885094

NBI wouldn't be providing a VoIP service, they'd be providing a strand of fibre to the premises. The bulk of their costs involve the building and maintenance of a fibre network. There's no logical basis for concluding that they could provide a service substantially cheaper than their existing entry-level service while still maintaining a margin.

If you've ever looked at eircom NGN (leased line) pricing, it has two explicit components: the physical cost (renting the actual glass going to the customer premises) and the logical cost (the bandwidth being delivered over the glass). Once you get any distance from the exchange, it makes very little sense to provide an NGN circuit of less than (say) 100Mb/s, because most of the cost is physical.

NBI's pricing isn't broken down the same way, but the same underlying principle applies: the price of the 500Mb/s service is basically what it costs them to deliver a strand of glass to the customer premises, plus some margin. When they introduced the 500Mb/s service they didn't drop the price of the 150Mb/s service, they dropped the service.

heavydawson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118885152#Comment_118885152

I take your point. Taking the most recent price point for NBI for the low-end 500 product from their own reference offer document, we're looking at €29.72/month before any RSP costs. I don't think I've seen any RSP price the consumer 500 mb product lower than €60 (after initial offers have ended)

So you reckon there's no scope for something in the say €40 range (final retail price) for VoIP only?

I wonder also what's the break-even point time-wise for a consumer connection? When does the consumer subscription cover the initial outlay for connecting their premises specifically. I know every connection varies in terms of complexity, but in terms of the average....

oscarBravo

FYI, Westnet charge €45 for 500Mb/s both in and out of contract. I'm sure there are other decent value offers out there, especially from some of the regional players.

I honestly don't know where the copper switch off is going to go. I was just making the point that it won't be simple. I know the documents I linked above are heavy going, but they do give a decent sense of the complexities that will be involved.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882503#Comment_118882503

I probably should have put in because mobile 4&5 G is not and will not be available.

From the looks of it take up is around 20%. If they are going on a mad advertising spree to increase it I imagine are are.not happy with take up . I imagine take keV will increase but to what level is the question.

It would be interesting if we had an analysis of pre paid V bill pay of mobile and electricity where the bill is paid by the domestic user.

I was in a house last night where a single man was living. He had a 40''+ TV working off mobile broadband. He actually has fiber broadband passing his door. I asked him how he found he was happy with it. The match he was watching was not buffering and the picture was clear. He was happy with his internet connectivity as well.

My son works from home in Dublin off his mobile phone and so do the vast majority of single people in urban area where there is decent mobile broadband.

For a vast amount of people if mobile broadband was as good in Rural as in Urban area they be slow forking out another 40+/ month minimum for fixed BB.

There is another factor at present internet providers are trying to grab market share. They will know from historical what level.of customer do not switch regularly and remain on the higher charge.

To attain that at present many are also not charging an installation fee. When the market matures the lower price introductory offers may end and an installation charge may apply

It is also probably only a matter of time before legislation similar to car insurance where companies cannot use discriminatory pricing on legacy customers.

wexfordman2

oh, you actually were serious!!!

Well, your initial point about 4g not/never being available in rural areas is utter tosh, as when 3g shut down happens in the very near future, 4g will be prerty much all there is in amny rural areas. And even then it will not be an adequate solution.

But, in any case, thanfully, the use of mobile networks as a solution for rural broadband was dismissed, anyone with more than an amatuer level of understanding of the subject understands why also.

You keep on flogging that dead horse though, although I am fairly sure this is the wrong thread for it.

Gary kk

So I have 5g and it goes up about 120mb which is in no future proof given the speed available on fiber

snapper365

I think there are a couple of separate discussion points happening above.

For mobile vs fixed line... mobile is simply not as reliable as fixed line and if you are able to avail of FTTH it's very unlikely to be as fast either, unless you happen to have a really strong 5G connection. That said, it may be "good enough" for a large % of the population. Everyone has different needs and expectations. If you can get acceptable speeds through your mobile and are a fairly light user, then I can see a world where you might just pay for the mobile contract and forego the added expense of a monthly broadband bill.

Whether that's a major factor on the apparent low uptake (which is a separate discussion point entirely) is not really clear though. My gut feeling is that it's not, because the rollout is happening in places where the mobile service isn't great to begin with. I think there is a big issue with communication. In my area, they really haven't advertised NBI's availability effectively at all. For example, I was pro-actively following the rollout very closely (checking my eircode regularly etc) and as a result I was aware I could order as soon as it went live (last July). Yet despite also being signed up for email updates, it was months later before I received an email from NBI telling me I could order.

If you weren't that aware of the rollout around here then you could easily still be in the dark nearly a year later - we've never had any communication through the letter box or anyone call to our door. I guess the question is though, if you are that unaware of NBI rollout, does that imply that you don't actually have a strong enough need for a reliable broadband connection, and even if you knew about it, you probably wouldn't sign up? It's a puzzler for sure.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887273#Comment_118887273

The problem with mobile BB is the service in most of rural Ireland is littered with blackspots. I live in an area where I I cannot make a call not to mind use mobile BB in my house. I can just about make a call outside my back door and it's similar with the three different network providers.

Technically 4&5g may be available but the coverage is brutal in a lot of the rural areas. I am not against fiber BB. But the reality is that decent mobile BB of 4&5 G will probably service most of the population.

Would the government have issued this contract if 4&5 G speeds were available nationwide I be fairly sure they would not have.

The reality is what will take up be like. I think the idea of advertising was get get BB take up increase nationwide not just on the NBI area.

Copper will go definitely within 10 years if not within 5. I think technical support for old PSTN by providers is getting very limited. However the perception that this will see a mass changeover to fibre broadband and VOIP is not a given fact.

We already saw in Urban area where mobile coverage is generally excellent the switch away from landlines.

Where people have a choice and have decent coverage they have ceased LL's and just use there mobile for calls. Urban areas show where smaller households are involved that these often use only mobile coverage for both phone and BB services.

wexfordman2

The mobile/wireless argument is dead, I fail to see why people keep bringing it up. Taking the assumptiin that some people think that 5g or even 4g speeds are adequate for a fully functional home/work/business broadband service, lets just call out why that doesnt translate to a rural broadband solution.

1) 40 years of mobile network deployment and we still hav'nt, and never will reach 100% geographic coverage, irrespective of technology layer.

2) Topography dictates, and it says no.

3) Urban and suburban networks 4g and 5g are not and never will be comparible to rural deployments. Never!

5) Distance and coverage areas

6) Bandwidth availability, more useable bands and bandwidth in urban areas, are not suitable for rural deployment, particularly in the higher bands where much of the capacity and bandwidth is available (3400,2100,2600,1800mhz etc)

7) Physics, propagation and attenuation of above higher bands make them unsuitable for rural deployment.

4g and 5g argument is dead, please can we stop trying to raise a dead corpse

heavydawson

NBI have recently added their Mast Backhaul documentation to their service provider portal. The combination of the further coverage of fibre to remote areas, the upcoming 700Mhz auction (well formal allocation really), and (I would hope) eventually more widespread proliferation of microcells for external use and hybrid fibre/wifi/5g/femtocell devices indoors, we should have the best of both worlds.

The more fibre we have in rural locations the more the above becomes a practical reality. Indoor coverage can still be abysmal in rural areas with good 4G coverage due to the nature of modern, well insulated houses.

Gunner3629

The one advantage copper PSTN continue to have over VOIP is that you don't technically need any power/electricity (if you don't use a DECT phone).

My parent live in a mobile coverage blackspot and therefore rely on copper for landline and internet. If they were to move to FTTH (& VOIP), and the power goes out to their home, they are left without any communication to the outside world.

As it stands, when the power goes, they can still use their phone simply by plugging in an old telephone set.

(I know XG-PON is passive but the ONT needs power).

SkepticQuark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884760#Comment_118884760

A day after this post we got a little booklet in the post about NBI fibre being ready to order, how to order it, who to order from, how it's installed etc. Maybe this is a new thing that should be the norm tbh.

clohamon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118888231#Comment_118888231

All mobile licences are outdoor licences. Comreg's research on glass/wall insulation/phone antennae are distractions from the weak coverage conditions. eg 85% population is about 30% geographic.

The template was set in 2012 when cumulative coverage in 800MHz, 900MHz and 1800MHz was regulated at 70% population or 35%* population if coverage from 2100 Mhz was included. Those licences will persist until 2030.

*35% population coverage equates to 0.36% geographic coverage (effectively zero)

As far as I can tell the basic DECC/ComReg model is rural Ireland gets indoor mobile coverage via WiFi calling (native wifi) over FTTP and possibly some extension to 4g outdoors from the 700MHz coverage obligations. That's your lot.

Any significant improvement in rural mobile coverage would require ComReg to rescind the 2012 licences, compensate the MNOs and re-allocate/re-auction them with higher coverage obligations.

wexfordman2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889323#Comment_118889323

I know this is a distracton from the topic, but an interesting one just came to mind. The 900mhz auctions are quite old, not sure when the current licences expire, but with most operators now planning for 3G switch off, much of that 900MHZ spectrum will migrate to 4G use, with potentially a small level left for 2G fallback.

I wonder what the 900Mhz licence conditions stipulate about migration to LTE/4G. A direct transfer of 900UMTS to 900LTE will not give the same coverage footprint as before, and certainly not the same coverage footprint as 2g!

The Cush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889629#Comment_118889629

All bands except the 2100 MHz are liberalised since 2012, ie technology neutral. The licencee can use their licensed spectrum for whichever standard in line with the harmonised technical conditions for that band (ECC Decisions).

wexfordman2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889709#Comment_118889709

Yes, I understand that, I am just curious when looking at overall coverage from a low band perspective on 2g/3g 900, when migrating this to LTE900, typically LTE coverage does not mirror 3g to date, due to the allocation of power to the pilot/broadcast channel, so you get a smaller overall coverage footprint on 4g at 900mhz, than 3g at 900mhz.

Anyway, Ive dragged this way off, aplogies all.

heavydawson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889286#Comment_118889286

Ah that's great to hear. They need that old-school approach to raise awareness for certain customers IMHO

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889798#Comment_118889798

They are definitely missing a trick.

For example recently in my area I have spotted the loops of fibre ducting being put in on poles at various intervals along the road.

I know what they are and it gives me a rough idea of where they are at in the process , but I doubt most people have any idea of what they are.

A few posters pinned to those same poles saying something like " National Broadband roll-out underway , visit NBI.ie for more info" would go a long way to building up interest and awareness of the product.

heavydawson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889323#Comment_118889323

Thanks for the detail. The coverage requirements are certainly disappointing, but understandable given the population density being so low in this country. I ended up going through https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32017D0899&from=EN following some of your links. It appears there's a least some initial discussion (nothing prior to 2030) about liberalising some of the DTT spectrum (beyond the 700Mhz currently being auctioned), which would be interesting. Given the low number of terrestrial channels, I wonder how much of that spectrum (470->700Mhz) is in use in Ireland.

On a related note, maybe we could improve the fibre uptake by telling people they can upgrade their Saorview box to Saorview Connect 🤣

The Cush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890201#Comment_118890201

Because the Saorview network is an MFN and the broadcasting act mandates capacity for 6 national multiplexes so the complete UHF broadcasting band 470-694 MHz is in use.

Under the EU regulation broadcasting is guaranteed that spectrum until at least the end of 2030.

At WRC-23 the complete UHF band 470-960 MHz is being reviewed under agenda item 1.5 for ITU Region 1. This region includes Europe, Africa, Middle East and the CIS.

It is likely that the 600 MHz band could be allocated to mobile services following the review, 598/606-694 MHz maybe. If this happens those countries wanting to maintain DTT networks will have to move to newer modulation and compression standards, eg DVB-T2/HEVC, to maintain existing services. Germany already uses this spec so they would have to look at newer specs or other options at that time - enter 5G broadcast.

A recent ITU survey of European members indicated they wanted to maintain the status quo as regards DTT spectrum.

Nolars

One the lads in wexford got fiber installed during the week said he told the neighbour about nbi and he rang eir and they wouldn't move him over to fiber. Dunno why that would be the case.

The Cush

Official Dept numbers up to the end of Jan

The number of premises passed by the National Broadband Plan (NBP) network as of the end of January 2022 (i.e. the end of the second year of the NBP contract).

As of 31 January 2022, 295,564 premises were surveyed, with designs completed or in progress for 252,070 premises. The number of premises with build underway (including duct remediation and tree trimming) was 119,634, with fibre build underway for 62,313 premises.

The number of premises passed as of 31 January 2022 was 34,454. Orders have been placed with retail service providers for 8,431 premises orders and 6,272 premises were connected.

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/33/committee_of_public_accounts/submissions/2022/2022-03-21_correspondence-mark-griffin-secretary-general-department-of-environment-climate-and-communications-r1140-pac33_en.pdf

oscarBravo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890766#Comment_118890766

Maybe they make more money on their own network than on NBI's. Has he tried talking to another RSP?

clohamon

Committee of Public Accounts report on NBP, with familiar themes and some recommendations.

• Missed deployment targets.
• Unrealistic take-up target.
• Consultants' costs

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/33/committee_of_public_accounts/reports/2022/2022-04-05_examination-of-the-2019-and-2020-appropriation-accounts-for-vote-29-environment-climate-and-communications-and-expenditure-on-the-national-broadband-plan_en.pdf NBP starts on page 11.

heavydawson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118890600#Comment_118890600

I hadn't heard of 5G broadcast but that makes complete sense in terms of spectrum usage! Looks like Brazil are already looking at it as part of their TV 3.0 project, and they're looking beyond HEVC to VVC.

https://www.sportsvideo.org/2022/03/11/brazilian-terrestrial-television-system-selects-atemes-titan-solution-for-new-tv-3-0-standard/

While Brazil use the ATSC standard, it looks like DVB are moving in the same direction:

https://www.5g-mag.com/post/5g-mag-joining-forces-with-dvb-on-the-future-of-tv-over-5g

There's a possibility that broadcast tv might be 5Gs killer app? Strange times 😂

clohamon

A little bit more detail from NBI following @NBAiii 's post above. And NBI claiming 30% + take-up on deployments older than six months.

National Broadband Ireland Progress Update - NBIhttps://nbi.ie/news/events/2022/04/07/national-broadband-ireland-progress-update/NBI, the company rolling out the new high-speed fibre broadband network under the Government’s National Broadband Plan (NBP), has today issued a progress update which is showing strong momentum across all 26 counties. By year end 2022, NBI is on track to deliver: Premises under construction to grow by 43%, to 221,000 homes (40% of ... Read more

NBAiii

9200 premises connected and 41000 passed as of the 1st April according to Ossian Smyth today. Deputy Smyth again criticised NBI for its role in the delays:

The Deputy is right that the project is behind where it should be at this stage, at the end of year two. The ambition, or the agreed remedial plan, is to double the output of connections in this year compared with the number last year to reach 102,000 by the end of the year. The project is not where it should be. Part of the remedial plan was to discuss the reasons for the delay. Some of those reasons are simply the fault of NBI. It can blame its contractor but it is still responsible for what its subcontractor, Eir, which it works with, does. One of the reasons is the pandemic. Although we thought the delays in the original waves of the pandemic would be over, Omicron, of course, took out many staff. That delayed things but it is not the entire story. Some of those delays are the fault of NBI, and it will be charged penalties for that. I have worked with NBI and, in the past month, have met both the chair of NBI and the chair of Eir. I will continue to do that. We reformed the mobile phone and broadband task force in order that we could co-operate with the local authorities. I believe and am assured that we are now converging and getting back on track, that a lot of the issues they had have now been resolved and that the project is now picking up, accelerating and reaching pace.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2022-04-07/93/