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National Broadband Ireland : implementation and progress
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Did any TD ask how much fibre cable is being dupicated with existing eir fibre or how many man hours will be spent stringing cable on poles or ducts alongside existing fibre to reach intervention areas?Granted, as I previously posted, where there is a small pocket of premises to connect, I can't see how it would be efficient for NBI to not use exisiting OEir Fiber.I agree. Fibre is going to be strung for 10km to get to me and two of my neighbours when there is a DP 150m from my house with only 1 house connected to it. The closest house back towards the exchange that can't get it is ~2km away and they have DPs at a similar distance to them.It is not NBI's fault. They are just doing what they have been contracted to do. The fault lies with the Department who made a mess of the procurement process.
I don't think the general public or even many journalists have realised what is taking place.
I haven't watched the video of the Committee discussion with NBI yet, later this evening I hope, so not sure how much of the discussion related to the fibre cable overrun.
The fibre cable overrun issue was discussed at Committee with the Dept last summer.
The main points raised at the discussion were
- The NBI fibre overrun option is the cheaper option
- Eir fibre could be reused in future if it proves to be the cost effective in a particular situationChairman: In terms of the overbuild and putting fibre on top of Eir’s fibre, will Mr. Mulligan talk about the cost impact for National Broadband Ireland, NBI, or somebody else using Eir’s infrastructure?
Mr. Patrick Neary: Analysys Mason submitted a paper to the committee today. I will explain the intent of that. When the area including 300,000 households was removed from the process, it created what the ESB referred to as a doughnut of premises around towns and villages that bidders would now need to traverse to get to the intervention homes. That is 5 or 6 km out the main roads of villages and part of the way down boreens but not all the way to premises at the end of the roads. Bidders were faced with trying to traverse that area and they considered two options. One was to use an active product that Eir was developing which reused the fibre that was deployed to service the 300,000 households. The bidder would plug in its own fibre at the end of that area of 300,000 households to address the intervention area or, alternatively, the bidder could rent poles and ducts from Eir to deploy, or use its own structure in the ESB’s case, to get across the area of the 300,000 households. Both options involved network infrastructure sharing and reusing infrastructure. In the active wholesale product option, the fibre is being rented, but that includes the cost of the rental of the pole and duct that is holding up that fibre and the active equipment, the electronics that are in the telephone exchanges from which Eir manages fibre. The pole and duct rental option means that a company would be renting the physical pole and the duct in the ground and deploying its own fibre through it.
We spent a lot of time with the bidders looking at preferred options and which would work best. It became apparent that the best option was different for different bidders. Open Eir’s preference was to use the active product and plug the fibre into the fibre that was already on the build that had been done for the 300,000 households. It was apparent that the other bidders preferred just to use the physical infrastructure of poles and ducts and deploy their own fibre. The main rationale for that was that those bidders demonstrated that, due to where their design was starting from - metropolitan area networks, MANs, in the case of Granahan McCourt and ESB substations in the case of the ESB - there was not the same cost benefit of using the Eir fibre based on the topology. At the same time, the cost of the poles and ducts was reduced somewhat based on the volume of poles and ducts that were being used by Granahan McCourt in particular. It got a lower price for using the pole and duct infrastructure. That option became a cheaper one and was then more cost efficient for Granahan McCourt to use. The ESB said in its evidence that it was more cost effective to use its own infrastructure.
Eir, on the other hand, continued because the design of its network obviously fits directly into where that fibre can be accessed at its exchanges and at the other end towards the intervention area. It could achieve cost savings in using that product. That is why Eir chose
Chairman: Essentially, it was more cost effective to lay fibre on top of Eir’s fibre.
Mr. Patrick Neary: Yes. There were a number of operational issues with the fibre product at the time that were listed by Analysys Mason. The product was in development at the time and that prevented the other bidders from being able to have the assurance of being able to use it in particular locations. It is possible for National Broadband Ireland, NBI, to re-engage and reuse an Eir active product in its deployment. Any available cost saving could be achieved in certain circumstances. The product would need to be redeveloped and introduced to cover future-proofing, capacity and operational requirements of NBI in order to be able to rely on it in these circumstances. It is an option for it to pursue in the future.
Mr. Mark Griffin: As we stated to the committee, in consideration of a low level design in individual deployment areas, NBI will be mandated to come forward with the most cost-effective solution, whether it is use of an FEI product if it is brought back onto the market and appropriate, use of the ESB’s infrastructure or use of Eir’s pole and duct infrastructure, in addition to looking at what is the most cost-effective way in regard to connection charges and wireless infrastructure.Mr. Patrick Neary: It is important to bring the discussion back to the tender we have received and the decision Granahan McCourt has made to use only the polls and ducts rather the active product Eir is using to connect to its fibre. The bidder’s network design starts in the metropolitan area networks, MANs. It has to traverse the 300,000 area before it gets to the intervention area. Starting in the MANS means it is not getting the same cost savings from reusing the fibre that Eir would get if it were to reuse that fibre. We went into an in-depth analysis with Granahan McCourt on the benefit or otherwise of reusing that fibre on the 300,000 area. It demonstrated to us that it did not achieve the same cost savings from its design by reusing that fibre and that it was actually cheaper for it to deploy its own fibre and just rent the polls and ducts. Its design decision
Deputy Brian Stanley: The net effect is that we will have two systems running through the 340,000 area.
Mr. Patrick Neary: There will be two cables.
Deputy Brian Stanley: No one will be connected into one of the systems in the 340,000 area and the second one, the Eir system, will be active within that area. That is the net effect of the way we have gone with this project.
On the cost of connections
Mr. Patrick Neary: If I could mention one other aspect
Deputy Brian Stanley: Of course.
Mr. Patrick Neary: As I mentioned, that does not mean that Granahan McCourt or National Broadband Ireland, NBI, cannot use that fibre going forward. NBI still has that option to pursue when it gets into low level design. It could pursue that fibre as an option in certain circumstances where it makes sense for it and where that product can still satisfy the requirements on future proofing and capacity. It is not off the table, as such. It is something the NBI company could pursue now once it gets to the low level design stage. Following the low level design stage, it is obligated to come to the Department and demonstrate that it is pursuing the most efficient solution.0 -
https://nbi.ie/rollout-plan/
Deployment Area|Status of Deployment Area|Anticipated Date for Connection|Premise Number
Carrigaline|Network Build In Progress|December 2020 – February 2021|4,615
Cavan|Network Build In Progress|February 2021 – April 2021|3,738
Galway|Network Build In Progress|January 2021 – March 2021|3,502
Ballinasloe|Network Build In Progress|May 2021 – July 2021|3,307
Limerick|Network Build In Progress|May 2021 – July 2021|4,075
Castlebar|Survey Underway|August 2021 – October 2021|2,139
Dundalk|Survey Underway|August 2021 – October 2021|2,770
Killarney|Survey Underway|August 2021 – October 2021|3,382
Monaghan|Survey Underway|August 2021 – October 2021|4,355
Mullingar|Survey Underway|August 2021 – October 2021|4,109
Roscommon|Survey Underway|August 2021 – October 2021|3,591
Sligo|Survey Underway|August 2021 – October 2021|2,513
Tralee|Survey Underway|August 2021 – October 2021|3,167
Wexford|Survey Underway|August 2021 – October 2021|3,745
Kilcoole|Survey Underway|July 2021 – September 2021|2,836
Drogheda|Survey Underway|October 2021 – March 2022|4,173
Ballina|Survey Underway|September 2021 – February 2022|2,678
Waterford|Survey Underway|September 2021 – February 2022|6,358
Blessington|Survey Underway|September 2021 – November 2021|4,959
Carlow|Survey Underway|September 2021 – November 2021|3,544
Tipperary|Survey Underway|September 2021 – November 2021|3,316
You wouldnt mind sharing that with John in NBI?0 -
I haven't watched the video of the Committee discussion with NBI yet, later this evening I hope, so not sure how much of the discussion related to the fibre cable overrun.
The fibre cable overrun issue was discussed at Committee with the Dept last summer.
The main points raised at the discussion were
- The NBI fibre overrun option is the cheaper option
- Eir fibre could be reused in future if it proves to be the cost effective in a particular situation
I understand why NBI have chosen the model they have. My issue would not be with them. However, I am sure this topic has been done to death in other threads so there is not much point derailing this one with what might have been. We are where we are.0 -
I understand why NBI have chosen the model they have. My issue would not be with them. However, I am sure this topic has been done to death in other threads so there is not much point derailing this one with what might have been. We are where we are.
My post was just to explain the reason why they have chosen the overbuild option. I've no doubt you are well aware of the reasoning for this but it's regularly asked here, by myself in the past with an open-eir fibre DP about 750m from my house and others without any explanation.
This quoted section of the debate from the officials in the Dept clarifies the reasons the bidders wanted the overbuild/overrun option and why the Dept went with it.
As you explained in the past NBI will be serving larger areas with fewer OLTs than open-eir, bypassing may of their exchanges, my own local exchange included if my assumptions are correct. Connecting to the end of the existing open-eir fibre network means adding in these open-eir exchanges/OLTs and the associated costs involved including leasing fibre from open-air in the 300k transit area, exchange/OLT costs etc. These additional costs will drawn down from the state subsidy and passed on to eircom.
The down side of course is I'll be waiting longer for an NBP connection as they will have to run fibre directly from a neighbouring open-eir exchange.0 -
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wexfordman2 wrote: »East cork here as well, and mine is now also gone back to "pending survey". I know for a fact the area has been surveyed already, hopefully it's just a glitch.
same for me in cork, knew it was too good to be true for dec 2020 to feb 2021 :rolleyes:0 -
Is there a way to find out what deployment area you are in ? I Live near a county boundary.
There isn't a list as such matching townlands with OLT locations and county boundaries don't appear to be a factor as fibre/copper lines criss-cross boundaries. Also the final route for the fibre cable could be down to the surveying and low-level design work being carried out prior to rollout in any area.
You can make a best guess by looking at the list of OLT deployment locations and their proximity to your location and your local exchange area.
The Dept's rollout area map gives approximate boundaries but may include a number of deployment areas.
clohamon has gone to a lot of effort to map the Dept's rollout map to google maps - https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1h1fSHXa6-cHDuEvBb52AupxYBQnNRtbq&ll=52.60566010918002%2C-8.240203857421868&z=100 -
btw if anybody is a constituent of Cathal Crowe TD they might ask him if he ever got the promised response from Eamon Ryan concerning the roll-out schedule, and if he'd care to share it.
I guess the list you linked to yesterday on the NBI's rollout page is the best you're going to get based on NBI's discussion with the Committee yesterday, where they said 18 months ahead is the best they can do for now and maybe extending to 2 years at some point in the future.0 -
Where in North Galway? Based in Headford myself and its just premises pending survey despite being told months back our area had been surveyed.
From what I can see, they stopped in the middle of corrandulla. No idea when/where surveying will resume In Galway is one of the most frustrating things in all this.
The Green area in this Map. https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1h1fSHXa6-cHDuEvBb52AupxYBQnNRtbq&ll=53.48334273136259%2C-8.788329182534909&z=10
Annaghdown/Corrandulla has been split in half here, we just happen to be on the right side0 -
The Green area in this Map. https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1h1fSHXa6-cHDuEvBb52AupxYBQnNRtbq&ll=53.48334273136259%2C-8.788329182534909&z=10
Annaghdown/Corrandulla has been split in half here, we just happen to be on the right side
That google map is an estimate of a fuzzy PDF that's over a year old. I wouldn't be planning your future on it.0 -
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That google map is an estimate of a fuzzy PDF that's over a year old. I wouldn't be planning your future on it.
Who says I am?? my original post pointing out that we have a date, survey has been carried out, Poles being replaced and Hedge trimming along the telecom pole route would be a better indication, would you not think? Just so happens that pdf and subsequent map corresponds to exactly what im seeing on the ground in our area.0 -
I haven't watched the video of the Committee discussion with NBI yet, later this evening I hope, so not sure how much of the discussion related to the fibre cable overrun.
The fibre cable overrun issue was discussed at Committee with the Dept last summer.
The main points raised at the discussion were
- The NBI fibre overrun option is the cheaper option
- Eir fibre could be reused in future if it proves to be the cost effective in a particular situation
I think there's quite a difference between what Kieran O'Donnell was proposing ie a "commercial arrangement" whereby Eir would "deal" with the "Gap areas"....... and what Peter Hendrick undertook to do, ie look at all useable infrastructure.0 -
I think there's quite a difference between what Kieran O'Donnell was proposing ie a "commercial arrangement" whereby Eir would "deal" with the "Gap areas"....... and what Peter Hendrick undertook to do, ie look at all useable infrastructure.
Peter Hendrick would make quiet the politician, he was asked numerous times yesterday if NBI could enter into a commercial agreement with eir to use their fibre in the 300k transit area instead of overbuilding their own fibre to rollout quicker into the "gap" areas. At one point Kieran O'Donnell asked for a yes or no answer, which he didn't get. In one reply Hendrick wandered off to discussing trans Atlantic cables to avoid answering the question. It was quite funny.
Also mentioned at the Committee eir are in next week and I assume this is also an issue that will be raised with them.
As the Dept has said the contract allows for NBI to enter into a commercial agreement with eir to use their transit area fibre if the commercial terms are agreeable. Hendrick did however mention early on, before the tit for tat above that they would be open to using other provider infrastructure including fibre in the right situation.
As for Kieran O'Donnell's suggestion to roll into the gap areas quickly, I don't think it's a runner, probably more difficult logistically to infill pockets all over the country than rollout from a central OLT location systemically. It would also increase the the cost of the rollout and in turn the state subsidy.0 -
same for me in cork, knew it was too good to be true for dec 2020 to feb 2021 :rolleyes:
I think it must be an error, the whole of east cork, all the way to carrigtohill as gone back to "pending survey" status, I reckon someone has clicked the wrong button, you cant acutaly"unsurvey" a place.0 -
Peter Hendrick would make quiet the politician, he was asked numerous times yesterday if NBI could enter into a commercial agreement with eir to use their fibre in the 300k transit area instead of overbuilding their own fibre to rollout quicker into the "gap" areas. At one point Kieran O'Donnell asked for a yes or no answer, which he didn't get. In one reply Hendrick wandered off to discussing trans Atlantic cables to avoid answering the question. It was quite funny.
Also mentioned at the Committee eir are in next week and I assume this is also an issue that will be raised with them.
As the Dept has said the contract allows for NBI to enter into a commercial agreement with eir to use their transit area fibre if the commercial terms are agreeable. Hendrick did however mention early on, before the tit for tat above that they would be open to using other provider infrastructure including fibre in the right situation.
As for Kieran O'Donnell's suggestion to roll into the gap areas quickly, I don't think it's a runner, probably more difficult logistically to infill pockets all over the country than rollout from a central OLT location systemically. It would also increase the the cost of the rollout and in turn the state subsidy.
Reading between the lines and facial expressions with Hendrick, you can see NBI are just not going to go there using OpenEir for last mile connections en masse. It's a distraction at best. It's quite likely that it is cheaper for NBI to overlay OpenEir 300k and have a residual asset compared to sinking the money into Eir for 25 years and in doing so save themselves the likely complications and costs of piece-meal networks. When he agreed that they would look into it, I think he was just paying lip service to keep the committee at bay. Himself and Lowry were on different wavelengths completely. For Lowry; broadband=fiber, For Hendrick; broadband=fiber, OLTs, backahul, SLA, capacity, expansion, future proofing, reliability, network design, retail providers, handoffs, etc. etc. Once NBI are hitting the contract milestones with the Dept. the only purpose these committees will serve is rollout updates, clarifications and entertainment.
Just imagine for a second, after watching the whole meeting, if that committee was responsible for management of the rollout.:p
Jim0 -
The Green area in this Map. https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1h1fSHXa6-cHDuEvBb52AupxYBQnNRtbq&ll=53.48334273136259%2C-8.788329182534909&z=10
Annaghdown/Corrandulla has been split in half here, we just happen to be on the right side
Nice. Yeah I've been following it closely and there's literally a cut off point in that area. Some unlucky houses that appear to be in the same village just not even 1 minute walk north that are down as pending survey.
I'm really hoping they continue outwards in the next phase as it should catch my area in Headford. But at this stage the earliest I think I can hope for is 23/24.
Would anyone know is that how it works? In that they work to a certain point....and then from that point on they can continue another X km in distance? Or is it ALWAYS from the nearest OLT location?0 -
Himself and Lowry were on different wavelengths completely. For Lowry; ...
I had to agree with Michael Lowry's opening comments... some of the people who are looking for action now were the very ones who were anxious to kick this to touch and go back to stage 1 again which would have been hugely detrimental to the people in rural Ireland
I was also in agreement with with Timmy Dooley when he said for NBI to give people an indicative timescale for the rollout in their area, be it good or bad, at least they'll know where they stand. And of course he accepted the contract has now been awarded and nothing can change that.0 -
Spoke to Digiweb about pricing for anyone connecting to the NBP network. They said it will be the same as the FTTH pricing rather than the slightly cheaper SIRO cost. Think it's around 55 a month for 500MB connection with a 2TB FUP policy, pretty reasonable.0
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I had to agree with Michael Lowry's opening comments
I was also in agreement with with Timmy Dooley when he said for NBI to give people an indicative timescale for the rollout in their area, be it good or bad, at least they'll know where they stand. And of course he accepted the contract has now been awarded and nothing can change that.
Agreed. On the politic and timescale communications level both Lowry and particularly Dooley made very valid points. On the more technical and rollout issues not so much, but that's not their field in fairness.
It was really heartening to hear NBI being asked if there was anything the committee could do to help them with the project, token gesture or not. I don't miss the dark days of Dooley wanting to review/pause the thing to its death. After following it for so long, I'm still in a slight bit of shock that it is actually happening.
Jim0 -
After following it for so long, I'm still in a slight bit of shock that it is actually happening.
Jim
You and me both - have to keep reminding myself that it's coming, might take 2/3 years but the day will arrive when the nice NBI men and women will be pulling a fibre cable into my driveway :-)0 -
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I was also in agreement with with Timmy Dooley when he said for NBI to give people an indicative timescale for the rollout in their area, be it good or bad, at least they'll know where they stand. And of course he accepted the contract has now been awarded and nothing can change that.
Yep for me, this is the major point. I just want to know when, a rough time frame of when my area is expected to get a survey. That's all. Just to know when survey is expected, and if possibme a rough year expected build or rollout. Anyone with a bit of cop understands delays can happen.
Will save me the heartache of logging in every week to see if there has been any semblance of an update. Just to read the dreaded "premises pending survey".0 -
NBI/TLI signs were in Ballyneety Limerick this morning and just outside Ballyneety this evening. Not sure precisely what was going on. It may have been surveying.
Living about 2 minutes passed Ballyneety myself. My house says pending survey but at the other end of the road (main country road) I'm on, the first house says "Network Build in Progress" but their next door neighbours says "Premise Pending Survey". I'd be hoping if the network build is in progress down the road then surely we are pretty close also.
Edit: this morning they were up poles with wires0 -
NBI/TLI signs were in Ballyneety Limerick this morning and just outside Ballyneety this evening. Not sure precisely what was going on. It may have been surveying.
Living about 2 minutes passed Ballyneety myself. My house says pending survey but at the other end of the road (main country road) I'm on, the first house says "Network Build in Progress" but their next door neighbours says "Premise Pending Survey". I'd be hoping if the network build is in progress down the road then surely we are pretty close also.
Edit: this morning they were up poles with wires
I've seen a plan for Limerick. The cable is coming out underground from Limerick along the N24 and branching out mainly South of the N24 to reach the intervention areas. The area I've seen is meant to stretch to around Castle Erkin on the N24, however as you say checking premises in the area some are build in progress and some are pending survey.
It's possible that they have changed the plan that I have seen or that they have only started building certain routes on the ribbon that you are in.0 -
I’m hoping they roll out some kind of time line per area. I’m tormented looking at Eir FTTH less than 500 meters away here and I spoke to an NBI person last week and they said that they’re not down to survey the house this time round. Looking at the color coded map shared here by one of the posters the house is on the boundary between two areas but still don’t know are we straight out of luck for another few years or does it fall into a different survey area. The not knowing what the time frames are is pure torture.0
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I've seen a plan for Limerick. The cable is coming out underground from Limerick along the N24 and branching out mainly South of the N24 to reach the intervention areas. The area I've seen is meant to stretch to around Castle Erkin on the N24, however as you say checking premises in the area some are build in progress and some are pending survey.
It's possible that they have changed the plan that I have seen or that they have only started building certain routes on the ribbon that you are in.
Coincidentally I was on the N24 on Fri afternoon and at the Limerick city side of Boher village there were a couple of lads digging holes beside the N24 with rolls of clear fibre ducting close by, no signage indicating NBI or similar. Last week they were also running ducting on a rural road out of Boher beyond the church.
Castle-Erkin is further out the N24, so they could've be laying the duct for that route.
Caherconlish, just south of the N24, from where the lads were today, is one on the first areas in Limerick where initial NBI build works have started with availability May 2021 - July 2021. Ballyneety in Jofspring post is to the west of Caherconlish, with a similar availability date.0 -
Minister of State Sean Fleming having a rant about the NBP. A little knowledge as they say ...
Encroachment into the IA is not prohibited, the other providers just have no interest in doing so.
https://www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/news/590559/eir-customer-suppport-and-mobile-phone-service-disgraceful-laois-minister.htmlDeputy Fleming has also hit out at the National Broadband Ireland company for holding a 'monopoly' that stops Eir giving broadband to customers despite having poles outside their houses.
"I have been inundated by people with complaints in respect of the totally unsatisfactory broadband service in their area.He said the following about the National Broadband plan.
"The National Broadband Plan is the biggest culprit in this whole area in that the last Government signed the contract with National Broadband Ireland (NBI) giving exclusive rights to NBI to provide high speed fibre Broadband to 537,000 premises throughout the Country. There are over 10,000 such houses and premises in Laois in this category.
"Eir is prohibited, by the contract the last Government signed, to provide a service in these areas. This is most infuriating for people where they see the Eir pole right outside their premises with fibre broadband on the pole and because it is in an area where NBI were given an absolute monopoly, Eir is not allowed provide the services which they could do very simply if the National Broadband Plan was not in place."In truth some people are blaming Eir for non-delivery of broadband in their area but the fault is often because of the National Broadband Plan.0 -
The Cush wrote:Minister of State Sean Fleming having a rant about the NBP. A little knowledge as they say ...
someone needs to explain to him that eir never were going to connect said homes ever0 -
fergus1001 wrote: »someone needs to explain to him that eir never were going to connect said homes ever
What is it with FF politicians and being absolutely thick as pig **** on this subject matter.0 -
Someone needs to point him immediately to my parents in law. They were in the IA. NBI started serveying the area and within a few weeks Eir offered them 1Gb broadband and had them connected 3 weeks later despite the fact they spent years working off 1mb0
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Someone needs to point him immediately to my parents in law. They were in the IA. NBI started serveying the area and within a few weeks Eir offered them 1Gb broadband and had them connected 3 weeks later despite the fact they spent years working off 1mb
Are there more houses beyond your parents in law that are still in the IA and unserved by open-eir fibre?0
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