No right wing alternative= No alternative

Eric Cartman

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

FG and FF are not ideological parties ; they gravitate towards where power emanates from, currently the left . They may have been socially conservative in the past but are happy to follow the left consensus which now prevails in Ireland

+1 Weather vane populists , both of them

biko

"Right versus left" is getting old
People are more nuanced than that.

Look at the core issues you have and try to find a good fit for those.
The party of your choice won't be a perfect fit but it will be a good fit.

These are the promises from the various parties in 2016
Do you agree with these promises?
Did the parties keep them?
https://www.irishtimes.com/election-2016/party-promises

Eric Cartman

Tony EH wrote: »

Well, for instance they cut job seekers benefit from 12 months to just 9 and at the worst possible time too, when loads of people were getting laid off of work. Although that was Enda, not Leo.

However, traditionally they have always been a party of the right. Just because they may poach some ideas from "the left", it doesn't make them left wing.

They even identify as centre right parties, with FG being more to the right and they are commonly considered as such. Although, these days they revolve around a more right leaning neo-liberal conservative model, as do much of the western world's political entities.

Just because these parties are not right wing enough for you Eric, it doesn't make them left wing.

So you can only name 1 thing and enda did it.

Your notions of fg’s space on the spectrum is far too rooted in history and attitude rather than factual political implementation in modern times

Tony EH

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

FG and FF are not ideological parties ; they gravitate towards where power emanates from, currently the left .

How can you even type with a straight face? How in the name of fuck are the left in power? In nearly every western country there are various flavours of the right in power. There are no truly left leaning political parties pulling the levers at the moment.

Even Macron, who is often called a leftie, isn't really one. He's more of a centrist Liberal.

Eric Cartman

Tony EH wrote: »

How can you even type with a straight face? How in the name of fuck are the left in power? In nearly every western country there are various flavours of the right in power. There are no truly left leaning political parties pulling the levers at the moment.

Even Macron, who is often called a leftie, isn't really one. He's more of a centrist Liberal.

Poland and the uk are being led by moderate right parties, the rest of europe is basically centerists and liberal leaning centerists.

facehugger99

Wanderer78 wrote: »

where?

Explained in post

Wanderer78 wrote: »

would they really?

Yes

Tony EH

Eric Cartman wrote: »

So you can only name 1 thing and enda did it.

Your notions of fg’s space on the spectrum is far too rooted in history and attitude rather than factual political implementation in modern times

I'm not going to through a list of FG policies for you Eric. Fine Gael (nor Fianna Fail) are not left wing parties and to call them such is ridiculous.

Their absolute failure to tackle the public housing problem in this country should be an obvious indicator of where their ideology lies.

Your problem is that they aren't right wing enough for you. Frankly, you may have to go back to the last century to find one of those.

Huntergonzo

facehugger99 wrote: »

Peter Casey's vote during the presidential election seemed to suggest there is appetite among the electorate for some form of alternative to the overwhelmingly left-leaning parties that we have to choose from now.

Let's face it Cassey was/is a bumbling fool with questionable views and he still managed to get nearly 25% of the vote.

What surprises me is that no one has formed a party to fill the void. They would have an almost clear-run if they came up with some sensible policies that supported the private-sector workers who pay for almost everything in this country.

Renua were the last party to have a crack at it but they were fcuking hopeless TBH. There is no way I could bring myself to vote for them.

The Peter Casey thing was a protest vote, he latched on to the outrageous situation down in Tipperary to generate a bit of anger and get votes. It's a basic formula but it works.

He did however highlight something which left wing parties often run a mile from = the blatant arrogance of some people 'in need'.

I mean I have nothing against social support for those who are in genuine need (in fact it's a good thing) but for people to turn down council houses because they also want a bitta land and a few stables......that's just taking the almighty píss out of the tax payer. If you want those luxuries in life go earn them!!!

Again I've worked for a housing authority so the situation in Tipp didn't suprise one bit, I've seen plenty of similar cases of arrogance. So I can see why so many working people were furious and that's where the push to the right is coming from.

My main concern with the right though is social issues, parties like Renua almost seem to want to return Ireland to McQuaid's Ireland of the 40s, we don't want that either!

Tony EH

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Poland and the uk are being led by moderate right parties, the rest of europe is basically centerists and liberal leaning centerists.

Neo-Liberals are not left wingers.

There are no real left wing parties in power, except Spain...and even then.

Wanderer78

facehugger99 wrote: »

Explained in post



Yes

completely convinced

Eric Cartman

Tony EH wrote: »

Neo-Liberals are not left wingers.

There are no real left wing parties in power.

At no point in my post did I say the words left or left wing or inferr such

Loafing Oaf

facehugger99 wrote: »

Peter Casey's vote during the presidential election seemed to suggest there is appetite among the electorate for some form of alternative to the overwhelmingly left-leaning parties that we have to choose from now.

And if his 2% in the latest opinion poll for Donegal is borne out in the election, what would that suggest?

Tony EH

Eric Cartman wrote: »

At no point in my post did I say the words left or left wing or inferr such

So you're agreeing with me then. Good lad.

Granny15

facehugger99 wrote: »

Peter Casey's vote during the presidential election seemed to suggest there is appetite among the electorate for some form of alternative to the overwhelmingly left-leaning parties that we have to choose from now.

Let's face it Cassey was/is a bumbling fool with questionable views and he still managed to get nearly 25% of the vote.

What surprises me is that no one has formed a party to fill the void. They would have an almost clear-run if they came up with some sensible policies that supported the private-sector workers who pay for almost everything in this country.

Renua were the last party to have a crack at it but they were fcuking hopeless TBH. There is no way I could bring myself to vote for them.

Why don’t you and your extreme right wing pals on this board start one then? Why because you are some greedy rich kid who wants to post anti working class bile behind the veil that this forum affords you. Extreme right wingers don’t start parties because they know they’d be lynched by the mob who doesn’t have as much as them.

Eric Cartman

Tony EH wrote: »

So you're agreeing with me then. Good lad.

Europe is a big centerist pansy pot, no balls from most countries

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Thats drifting or an attitude, I asked for actual factual things that have been done, bills, laws, tax rates, what right wing things have they done.


North korea is far left
Scandanavia is moderate left
FG is centre left

A party that prioritised abortion legalisation, providing them for free and marraige equality over any kind of tax cut which they promised and were elected to do is not right wing

To answer your question, I don't think they're really done anything, but what have they done thta would make them left wing?

martin1

Yes unfortunately at this time in Ireland there is no appetite for a popular centre right party.

This is a tragedy for our wonderful Celtic country.

It is only when the results become apparent of Ireland's and Europe’s mad, free for all, open door immigration policy that people will realize what a terrible mistake we have made.

But then it will of course be too late.

We slavishly make all the same mistakes that Britain has made.

Fifty years behind them, but all the same mistakes.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Thats drifting or an attitude, I asked for actual factual things that have been done, bills, laws, tax rates, what right wing things have they done.


North korea is far left
Scandanavia is moderate left
FG is centre left

A party that prioritised abortion legalisation, providing them for free and marraige equality over any kind of tax cut which they promised and were elected to do is not right wing

And moderate left seems to work well in Scandinavia (of course, that's no indication that it would work here).

Personally, I'd see FF as centre right, but that's base don their past a much as anything which, I agree, is not really an accurate yardstick.

But anything further right than that won't get the support for reasons I've outlined.

Beyond that Eric, you know what to do: list your ideals and start your own party.

Mad_maxx

Wanderer78 wrote: »

That's interesting, as theyre largely economically to the right, and it's well known they're traditionally more conservative

Traditionally FG were socially Conservative, they are resolutely socially Liberal now

Neither party today shows any sign of wanting to tackle the cradle to grave benefits culture, both are big government proponents, especially Michael Martin

Mad_maxx

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I think they've drifted slightly left recently in order to follow the will of the people, but there's no way they'd be economically left.

Have a lot at the welfare, tax rates and minimum wages of Scandinavian countries. That's centre left. Then cube Bush and tell me where you think FF and FG are.

The nordic countries tax low earners eight times as much as here

Eric Cartman

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

To answer your question, I don't think they're really done anything, but what have they done thta would make them left wing?

Marraige equality
Repealing the 8th and making abortion free
Giving the welfare christmas bonus back
Building social housing
Cancelling water charges
Giving zappone that ministerial position

Tony EH

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Europe is a big centerist pansy pot, no balls from most countries

...and it's politics is still largely of a rightish neo-liberal model.

The left don't have any real power in Europe. You should be happy Eric. :pac:

Mad_maxx

Tony EH wrote: »

Well, for instance they cut job seekers benefit from 12 months to just 9 and at the worst possible time too, when loads of people were getting laid off of work. Although that was Enda, not Leo.

However, traditionally they have always been a party of the right. Just because they may poach some ideas from "the left", it doesn't make them left wing.

They even identify as centre right parties, with FG being more to the right and they are commonly considered as such. Although, these days they revolve around a more right leaning neo-liberal conservative model, as do much of the western world's political entities.

Just because these parties are not right wing enough for you Eric, it doesn't make them left wing.

For whatever reason, it's left wingers who define where parties sit on the ideological spectrum, probably down to media and academia being overwhelmingly left wing

Doctor Jimbob

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Traditionally FG were socially Conservative, they are resolutely socially Liberal now

Neither party today shows any sign of wanting to tackle the cradle to grave benefits culture, both are big government proponents, especially Michael Martin

Probably because the benefit culture is nowhere near as big of an issue as it's made out to be on here. We have a very low unemployment rate here, despite generous benefits. I know people on here like to claim it's not worth it to work, but the fact that our unemployment has dropped massively since the economy started to recover would indicate that's just not true.

There are of course some people that dont want to work and I'd prefer if something was done about it, but I'd assume the lack of action on it has more to do with any action not being worth the cost rather than any real left leaning element in our current government.

Mad_maxx

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

FG and FF are not ideological parties ; they gravitate towards where power emanates from, currently the left . They may have been socially conservative in the past but are happy to follow the left consensus which now prevails in Ireland

That's fair enough but if something walks like a duck and quacks like one yada yada

Just because FF and FG are not true believers doesn't make them right wing, they walk and talk like big government statist

Tony EH

Mad_maxx wrote: »

For whatever reason, it's left wingers who define where parties sit on the ideological spectrum, probably down to media and academia being overwhelmingly left wing

Only in your head.

Left wingers don't call the shots in modern politics. You'd want to be seriously and wilfully blind to believe it otherwise.

vriesmays

The unemployment rate has dropped massively because there are so many more now on disability payments.

Mad_maxx

Tony EH wrote: »

How can you even type with a straight face? How in the name of fuck are the left in power? In nearly every western country there are various flavours of the right in power. There are no truly left leaning political parties pulling the levers at the moment.

Even Macron, who is often called a leftie, isn't really one. He's more of a centrist Liberal.

Those who self identify as left ( Michael Martin identifies as centre left) need not be in power to influence policy, the likely beefing up of "hate crime" legislation is entirely the result of lobbying by left wing pressure groups, political, media, academia and NGO, s

That's one example, the broadening of sex education in primary schools is another, often the shapers of policy are unelected

TomSweeney

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

thankfully there is no call for such an alternative.

Yep, we would hate to have difference of opinion now wouldn't we ?


especially when it's the wrong opinion ..

Mad_maxx

Tony EH wrote: »

I'm not going to through a list of FG policies for you Eric. Fine Gael (nor Fianna Fail) are not left wing parties and to call them such is ridiculous.

Their absolute failure to tackle the public housing problem in this country should be an obvious indicator of where their ideology lies.

Your problem is that they aren't right wing enough for you. Frankly, you may have to go back to the last century to find one of those.

FG and FF both presided over and supported the introduction of the most robust tenant protection laws in Europe, as a consequence landlords are deserting the market, thus contributing to the housing shortage

That's before even considering the incredibly onerous taxation laws for landlords