No right wing alternative= No alternative

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Marraige equality
Repealing the 8th and making abortion free
Giving the welfare christmas bonus back
Building social housing
Cancelling water charges
Giving zappone that ministerial position

Frist two were referendum-based

Theer was definiltey welfare christmas bonus in FF time and social housinfg is in their current manifesto.

The last two I odn't know enough about to comment, but the first few would have happened anyway.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The nordic countries tax low earners eight times as much as here

That would be 160% - you sure about that?

Idbatterim

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Probably because the benefit culture is nowhere near as big of an issue as it's made out to be on here. We have a very low unemployment rate here, despite generous benefits. I know people on here like to claim it's not worth it to work, but the fact that our unemployment has dropped massively since the economy started to recover would indicate that's just not true.

There are of course some people that dont want to work and I'd prefer if something was done about it, but I'd assume the lack of action on it has more to do with any action not being worth the cost rather than any real left leaning element in our current government.

That’s an easy lazy attitude to adopt. Irish politics all over. The system creates much of the problem in the first place. Go tell the German or uk welfare officers , you “ can’t be arsed” you’ll lose your ten pound Christmas bonus too ! All the posters here defending the welfare state , you’re either a beneficiary of it or are informed solely by the left wing media here on how bad you have it , on one of the worlds most generous welfare states , funded by even low income workers who have FIFTY percent of a portion of their salary thieved. No doubt they believe it though , decades of gold you are being shafted , no wonder they actually believe it. Also spare me on the unemployment rate. We have a massive release valve with emigration and with disability island, and the huge numbers. They aren’t counted as unemployed...

Mad_maxx

Tony EH wrote: »

...and it's politics is still largely of a rightish neo-liberal model.

The left don't have any real power in Europe. You should be happy Eric. :pac:

1989 happened, you don't have to be a card carrying Marxist to be on the left, besides, no one claimed that FG or FF are hard left, they are clearly centre left however, public discourse through the media and educational institutions in this country is unequivocally left wing

This leaves a huge minority with no voice, the rest feel conditioned and pressured into subscribing to the prevailing PC consensus

Snake Plisken

I look forward to the day we have conservative parties like VOX that I can vote for, they have grown in Spain to the 3rd most popular party after the last general election and that will continue!

biko

Renua, Anti-Corruption Ireland and National Party seems to be the right-wing parties Ireland has at the moment.

Considering the right-wing wave over Europe and UK it's surprising Ireland is still so left.

Mad_maxx

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

That would be 160% - you sure about that?

You think those earning below 25 k here pay a 20% rate of income tax?

I Am The Law

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Marraige equality
Repealing the 8th and making abortion free
Giving the welfare christmas bonus back
Building social housing
Cancelling water charges
Giving zappone that ministerial position

Unfortunately, this type of politics is based on no ideology.

FF, FG, Labour have proven over and over again that they don't do 'Positions' or 'Standings'.

Their policies, if you can call it a policy, is to make a decision that upsets the least amount of the electorate, while knowing that those affected by the decision will most likely just put up with it.

All you have to do is watch or listen to any minister being interviewed, they will not take stance on anything.

This populist politics is deeply retarding Ireland from maturing into a real country, Scandinavian type society could be achieved, but I'd say we have another 100 years growing up to do.

Tony EH

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Those who self identify as left ( Michael Martin identifies as centre left) need not be in power to influence policy, the likely beefing up of "hate crime" legislation is entirely the result of lobbying by left wing pressure groups, political, media, academia and NGO, s

That's one example, the broadening of sex education in primary schools is another, often the shapers of policy are unelected

So that's a couple of mickey mouse things that don't really matter that much.

Meanwhile, actual items of policy that do matter, like workers rights, working conditions, housing, rent controls, the transfer of wealth upwards, etc, all continue to spiral out of control.

The left do not call the shots and frankly, as a middle the roads guy, I wish they did have more power to really influence policy to change things that actually matter, not just a few items might get your knickers in a twist, like sex education in schools.

Mad_maxx

biko wrote: »

Renua, Anti-Corruption Ireland and National Party seems to be the right-wing parties Ireland has at the moment.

Considering the right-wing wave over Europe and UK it's surprising Ireland is still so left.

Suffocating media air tight consensus

Doctor Jimbob

Idbatterim wrote: »

That’s an easy lazy attitude to adopt. Irish politics all over. The system creates much of the problem in the first place. Go tell the German or uk welfare officers , you “ can’t be arsed” you’ll lose your ten pound Christmas bonus too ! All the posters here defending the welfare state , you’re either a beneficiary of it or are informed solely by the left wing media here on how bad you have it , on one of the worlds most generous welfare states , funded by even low income workers who have FIFTY percent of a portion of their salary thieved. No doubt they believe it though , decades of gold you are being shafted , no wonder they actually believe it. Also spare me on the unemployment rate. We have a massive release valve with emigration and with disability island, and the huge numbers. They aren’t counted as unemployed...

Tell a welfare officer here you can't be arsed and it wont go too well for you either. I've been on the dole and worked in a welfare office, I'm not just pulling ideas out of my hole here - it's nowhere near the free for all you and some others like to make it out to be. I'm not denying we have generous welfare state, I just don't see that as a negative thing.

No low income worker is having 50% of a portion of their wages taken as tax. I'm just about on the higher rate and I wouldnt consider my own income low at all. Statistics would back that up.

Mad_maxx

Tony EH wrote: »

So that's a couple of mickey mouse things that don't really matter that much.

Meanwhile, actual items of policy that do matter, like workers rights, working conditions, housing, rent controls, the transfer of wealth upwards, etc, all continue to spiral out of control.

The left do not call the shots and frankly, as a middle the roads guy, I wish they did have more power to really influence policy to change things that actually matter, not just a few items might get your knickers in a twist, like sex education in schools.

"middle of the road guy"

LoL

Tony EH

Mad_maxx wrote: »

1989 happened, you don't have to be a card carrying Marxist to be on the left, besides, no one claimed that FG or FF are hard left, they are clearly centre left however, public discourse through the media and educational institutions in this country is unequivocally left wing

This leaves a huge minority with no voice, the rest feel conditioned and pressured into subscribing to the prevailing PC consensus

Nope. You're STILL wrong.

Lonesomerhodes

biko wrote: »

Renua, Anti-Corruption Ireland and National Party seems to be the right-wing parties Ireland has at the moment.

Considering the right-wing wave over Europe and UK it's surprising Ireland is still so left.

Yep but they don't get a look in the media. Not one peep.

They are however having a meet up next week so see how that goes.

Think John Waters is a great speaker on freedom of speech.

facehugger99

I Am The Law wrote: »

Their policies, if you can call it a policy, is to make a decision that upsets the least amount of the electorate, while knowing that those affected by the decision will most likely just put up with it.

True, but it's as much a reflection of the electorate.

We have generally rewarded parties that adopt these strategies.

Most Irish people are self-centered and short-termist in their political views. The two largest parties have evolved to reflect this.

Granny15

facehugger99 wrote: »

True, but it's as much a reflection of the electorate.

We have generally rewarded parties that adopt these strategies.

Most Irish people are self-centered and short-termist in their political views. The two largest parties have evolved to reflect this.

Stop projecting your own view of yourself onto all Irish people.


For the record - you are wrong.

biko

Lonesomerhodes wrote: »

Yep but they don't get a look in the media. Not one peep.

Like here

Aontú has issued a legal threat to RTÉ over the decision to exclude the party from a televised general election debate.

You can find mentions like so:
https://www.google.com/search?q="national+party"+site:breakingnews.ie 274 results
https://www.google.com/search?q="renua"+site:breakingnews.ie 206 results
https://www.google.com/search?q="national+party"+site:independent.ie 653 results
https://www.google.com/search?q="renua"+site:independent.ie 1,520 results

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Mad_maxx wrote: »

You think those earning below 25 k here pay a 20% rate of income tax?

EDIT - Tax in Sweden up to 66k is 20%
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/taxes/income-taxes-abroad/sweden/index_en.htm

You're talking bollox.

Huntergonzo

Lonesomerhodes wrote: »

Yep but they don't get a look in the media. Not one peep.

They are however having a meet up next week so see how that goes.

Think John Waters is a great speaker on freedom of speech.

John Waters certainly is entertaining, born to the wrong era though, would have fit nicely into the 30s and 40s

I Am The Law

facehugger99 wrote: »

True, but it's as much a reflection of the electorate.

We have generally rewarded parties that adopt these strategies.

Most Irish people are self-centered and short-termist in their political views. The two largest parties have evolved to reflect this.

Correct, but that self-centeredness didn't happen by accident.

Religion was said to be the opiate of the masses, now we know the opium was fed to the people to control them.

Today's opium is consumerism, you must have this new product or else you are losing out.

It's very hard to get the electorate to think 20 or 30 years into future and ask themselves what kind of society they want......... oh supervalue have 48 hour bargain alert.... 😨

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

I Am The Law wrote: »

Correct, but that self-centeredness didn't happen by accident.

Religion was said to be the opiate of the masses, now we know the opium was fed to the people to control them.

Today's opium is consumerism, you must have this new product or else you are losing out.

It's very hard to get the electorate to think 20 or 30 years into future and ask themselves what kind of society they want......... oh supervalue have 48 hour bargain alert.... ��

I think that might be starting to change with the new environmentalist angle. Regardless fo where you stand on the argument, young people have more to lose and will be more effected by lethargic policy and I think they're beginning to relaise that.

Mad_maxx

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Base rate of tax in Ireladn is 20% - mentioning 25k is strawmanning: you never mentioend a figure in your first pst, but anyway:

But you made the claim, so you tell me - how much tax is paid on 25k in Scandinavia and how much is paid here? And link to sources. Bear in mind, 25k is not that high a wage in Scandinavia and may well even come under the iminum wage in some of the ocuntries.

Also - Scandinaia reinvests the taxes wisely and the countries routinely qualifiy as the happiest and most content peoples in the world, but you're not the kind of guy who posts about the positives of a left-wing economic model, are you?

Well I certainly don't share the smitten attitude of the irish left for scandanavia

Eric Cartman

Just even the last few pages and some posters around town I see a kot of left candudates on about workers rights, what rights do they think workers are currently not gettjng ?

We need a centre right government to solve the countries problems. It's such a pity the debate is allowed to be dragged down by the twitterati spouting nonsense of racism, xenophobia and without fail always end an argument talking about trump and Brexit and how the US and UK public are morons (and therefore anyone who dares veer past the political centre is a moron too).

Here are the most important issues I see which can be solved by immigration controls:

Housing shortage
Rent crisis
Mortgage crisis (which funnily enough has now been accepted as the new normal)
Healthcare crisis
Homelessness

I fond it hilarious when people talk about needing a change in government. Change to what?? OP is 100% spot on.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Well I certainly don't share the smitten attitude of the irish left for scandanavia

It's the so-called "smitten attitude" everywhere. And you don't share it bevcuae it doesn't fit your narrow-minded lying ill-researched hysterical anti-left selfish mindset.

QED, case closed.

Tony EH

I Am The Law wrote: »

Correct, but that self-centeredness didn't happen by accident.

Religion was said to be the opiate of the masses, now we know the opium was fed to the people to control them.

Today's opium is consumerism, you must have this new product or else you are losing out.

It's very hard to get the electorate to think 20 or 30 years into future and ask themselves what kind of society they want......... oh supervalue have 48 hour bargain alert.... ��

A lot of that is just self medication for a particular mental state. People turn to quick fixes, because they know that long term planning is worthless, when everything is so fragile. Consumerism offers a drug free option of pleasure to offset people's often shitty circumstances.

Look, over the last 30 years, Western politics has morphed into a situation where political power is beholden to a bullshit boom and bust economic model that favour the few and regularly cripples the majority. There has been a huge transfer of wealth to the top, who get to ride out the economic disasters like 2008, while others have to watch their children emigrate, go on the dole and get thrown back to square one.

Gradually, the slider goes back up again, and largely not due to governmental policy I might add, until it goes pop once more and the cycle continues and this is the way it's going to continue for the foreseeable future, because the will to change things just isn't there among the major political players.

Far too many people in Ireland, and other parts of the world, know that they'll never even own their own home, despite the fact that they're working full time with good pay coming in. So trying to build for, what was once a normal future, has become impossible due to the political mechanisations of right leaning neo-liberals who are largely the makers of policy these days and with that in mind, they turn to a quick fix now solution for themselves.

Tony EH

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Just even the last few pages and some posters around town I see a kot of left candudates on about workers rights, what rights do they think workers are currently not gettjng ?

I'd say they are more about the safe guarding of rights gained in the 20th Century and that are slowly being eroded in this one.

Work is one of the current political hot potatoes and the onset of the likes of zero hour contracts which the right love so much is not something that anyone should really consider a good thing.

Eric Cartman

Tony EH wrote: »

I'd say they are more about the safe guarding of rights gained in the 20th Century and that are slowly being eroded in this one.

Work is one of the current political hot potatoes and the onset of the likes of zero hour contracts which the right love so much is not something that anyone should really consider a good thing.

Zero hours contracts are gone, which is a shame as they were a great tool for small businesses and those starting out their careers , ok safeguarding makes sense as workers already have almost every right under the sun

Mad_maxx

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

It's the so-called "smitten attitude" everywhere. And you don't share it bevcuae it doesn't fit your narrow-minded lying ill-researched hysterical anti-left selfish mindset.

QED, case closed.

I give you, the intolerant left of today

Mad_maxx

Tony EH wrote: »

A lot of that is just self medication for a particular mental state. People turn to quick fixes, because they know that long term planning is worthless, when everything is so fragile. Consumerism offers a drug free option of pleasure to offset people's often shitty circumstances.

Look, over the last 30 years, Western politics has morphed into a situation where political power is beholden to a bullshit boom and bust economic model that favour the few and regularly cripples the majority. There has been a huge transfer of wealth to the top, who get to ride out the economic disasters like 2008, while others have to watch their children emigrate, go on the dole and get thrown back to square one.

Gradually, the slider goes back up again, and largely not due to governmental policy I might add, until it goes pop once more and the cycle continues and this is the way it's going to continue for the foreseeable future, because the will to change things just isn't there among the major political players.

Far too many people in Ireland, and other parts of the world, know that they'll never even own their own home, despite the fact that they're working full time with good pay coming in. So trying to build for, what was once a normal future, has become impossible due to the political mechanisations of right leaning neo-liberals who are largely the makers of policy these days and with that in mind, they turn to a quick fix now solution for themselves.

Ireland isn't the USA, we don't have anything like the inequality they have