Why are the Irish generally superficial?

buried

machaseh wrote: »

It depends , I think if one as an Irishman would manage to have learned fluent Dutch (very very hard to do by the way ) and posted that in our language it would be a wholly different story from here. But yes if you're going to post that in English on a Dutch forum it's gonna be a sh1teshow.

Ironically I did know two Irish people back home, both of whom had Irish as their native language.

You live in Dublin OP yeah? But where you working at? Some global multinational corporation or something like that? Your own work environment is probably clouding your whole mindset on the issue.
I mean, If you were working in one of the thousands of the Gaelscoil's you'd probably think every single person spoke the native language.

jam_mac_jam

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

No, that isn't true. He had been pretty much set upon from the start truth be told. Guys referencing fingers in dykes and all this sort of stuff.
Some people seem unable to take any criticism.

Fair enough, I was just speaking for myself really and the second comment annoyed me more then the first. but really... he started it.. what do you expect moaning about Irish people on an Irish message board.

SozBbz

machaseh wrote: »

Ironically I did know two Irish people back home, both of whom had Irish as their native language.

What is your obsession with the language? You keep bringing the subject back up out of nowhere.

Are you sad that we're not quaint little ginger folk running around pixi forts singing in our funny little language?

People are telling you that its your attitude and how you express yourself thats getting their backs up..... yet you bring up the language again - why?

Ireland is a modern European country like any other and does not exist to satisfy the preconceptions of foreigners.

On the subject, if you're board and want an alternative to the pub, you could read up on the penal laws which our our friends the Brits used to eradicate our culture, language included. Its never fully recovered, but there are some areas that are stronger than others (GAA for example, while I'm not a fan myself is a fairly unique organisation by international standards). There is some hope for the language however, Gealscoils are consistently oversubscribed and their students leave with good fluency. The challenge remains in wider society. I suppose its a bit of a challenge to have been colonized by people with the most useful language in the world, but heyho.

The Brits are not to blame for many of our ills today, but historically they put in place many laws/policies which things that are in evidence today can be traced back to - the existence of Northern Ireland for example. Obviously their behavior of late in relation to Brexit and their media attempting to smear Ireland in the process has not gone down well and done nothing to foster good relations.

mistersifter

machaseh wrote: »

... I'm not saying they never get food, but it'd be more something like a cheapo pizza in the pub, maybe some chips, or perhaps some (bad quality) kebab or go to the chipper afterwards rather than do something nice in the food department....

Insult our chippers, will you?

B*stard!

bullpost

Just as well the OP was not here for the Celtic Tiger years.

Now that was bat**** mad stuff in which a huge segment of the population gorged themselves on wanton consumption

machaseh

SozBbz wrote: »

What is your obsession with the language? You keep bringing the subject back up out of nowhere.

Are you sad that we're not quaint little ginger folk running around pixi forts singing in our funny little language?

People are telling you that its your attitude and how you express yourself thats getting their backs up..... yet you bring up the language again - why?

Ireland is a modern European country like any other and does not exist to satisfy the preconceptions of foreigners.

On the subject, if you're board and want an alternative to the pub, you could read up on the penal laws which our our friends the Brits used to eradicate our culture, language included. Its never fully recovered, but there are some areas that are stronger than others (GAA for example, while I'm not a fan myself is a fairly unique organisation by international standards).

The Brits are not to blame for many of our ills today, but historically they put in place many laws/policies which things that are in evidence today can be traced back to - the existence of Northern Ireland for example. Obviously their behavior of late in relation to Brexit and their media attempting to smear Ireland in the process has not gone down well and done nothing to foster good relations.

The language for me is important because at least in my culture, having the language is what makes you Dutch. A """""Dutch American """"" who doesn't have the language is , for us , not Dutch (just like Irish people don't consider plastic paddies Irish ).

You know what I did when I first came here, I went on Duolingo to try and learn some Irish, but having absolutely nobody to talk to makes it difficult.

Slieve Gullion

machaseh wrote: »

So as a background I moved over here from Holland a bit more than 2 years ago. What I have noticed a lot with Irish people is a prevailing sense of superficiality, and I wonder why this is so. I'll explain this a bit more below.

For example, the go-to activity for Irish people would be to go out drinking at the pub. Now there's nothing wrong with that, in the Netherlands we like our pints too. But in the pub you already start noticing the prevailing cultural superficiality of many Irish folks as compared to the Netherlands.

For example, eating out to get a proper meal before going to the pub seems to be uncommon. Whenever I'd propose something like that it'd be like 'nah im broke'. Even if it's been payday. It seems like Irish people just want to spend their money on alcohol rather than on a total, more enjoyable experience. I'm not saying they never get food, but it'd be more something like a cheapo pizza in the pub, maybe some chips, or perhaps some (bad quality) kebab or go to the chipper afterwards rather than do something nice in the food department.

The choice of drink is also generally not interesting, most Irish people would go for the coors light, Heineken (which by the way is considered the worst 'standard' beer in the Netherlands, yes I know it's from our country), and more importantly most would stick to only one type of beer for the night. Some lads with a bit more money would , fair play to them, go for the more expensive whiskeys but that's more of an exception than the rule.

The conversations is where the superficiality prevails though. Most irish people that I met have little if any knowledge of the Irish language, for example. Politics generally seems to be an absolutely taboo subject, while it would be normal for us to talk about that back home. They all seem to vote for FF/FG just because their parents did without thinking twice of it.

There also seems to be a general lack of interest in culture, such as the arts or music.

I wonder why Irish people are so superficial. Or is this just a Dublin thing? I just feel as if people back home are a lot more interesting in many aspects.

Great post and well observed. Colonialism tempered and stultified our natural social evolution. Pay no mind to the knockers here, you're bang on. A lot here are not able to understand.

SozBbz

machaseh wrote: »

The language for me is important because at least in my culture, having the language is what makes you Dutch. A """""Dutch American """"" who doesn't have the language is , for us , not Dutch (just like Irish people don't consider plastic paddies Irish ).

You know what I did when I first came here, I went on Duolingo to try and learn some Irish, but having absolutely nobody to talk to makes it difficult.

OK fine, but thats your issue.

I feel perfectly content in my Irishness, despite English being my first language. I'm not in the least bit confused as to who I am and how Irish I feel. I had decent Irish in school, don't get to use it much, but nevertheless, I don't feel less Irish for it.

Just because you feel language is important, doesn't mean that its vital to other peoples sense of identity.

Imposing your standards on others is never a good start.

dancingqueen

So

Dutch is really really hard to learn, of course, us dopey Irish we'd never learn fluent Dutch. Or maybe you just haven't met any Irish people who've learned fluent Dutch.

I bet you know loads of Irish though, seeing as you're better than us, what with being from The Netherlands and all. I hear pretty much everything is better over there.

dancingqueen

SozBbz wrote: »

OK fine, but thats your issue.

I feel perfectly content in my Irishness, despite English being my first language. I'm not in the least bit confused as to who I am and how Irish I feel. I had decent Irish in school, don't get to use it much, but nevertheless, I don't feel less Irish for it.

Just because you feel language is important, doesn't mean that its vital to other peoples sense of identity.

Imposing your standards on others is never a good start.

This is really bang on. Irishness and being Irish is a feeling. We don't speak Irish because of "The Brits" (actual real reason) but it doesn't change our identity.

ChikiChiki

Kylen Rough Nostril wrote: »

What are you talking about. Dutch people are absolutely zero craic with no sense of humour. They’re literally known for it.

Defensive much? Jesus Christ you absolute child. And 11 fellow children thanked your post. Back to school.

Alf Veedersane

machaseh wrote: »

It depends , I think if one as an Irishman would manage to have learned fluent Dutch (very very hard to do by the way ) and posted that in our language it would be a wholly different story from here.

Dutch can't be that hard to learn if Steve McLaren learned it in a couple of weeks.

SozBbz

Also, there is little point in me as an Irish person learning Dutch, so unless I decide I want to move there or just suddenly become fascinated with languages, I probably wont.

There is also no practical purpose for you to learn Irish. If you want to as a hobby, go ahead and knock yourself out, but the rest of us probably wont give us using English as in todays globalised world, its just more useful.

Finally - why do you put so much effort into complaining and so little into seeking out what apparently interests you?

A quick google of "Irish language groups Dublin returns the following;

https://www.meetup.com/Irish-Language-Meetup-Ciorcal-Comhra/

https://www.liofa.eu/learning-irish/irishlanguage-groups

https://lovindublin.com/feature/10-places-in-dublin-city-centre-where-you-wont-get-weird-looks-for-speaking-irish

and many more besides.

If you keep haning around the same people and going to the same places, the outcomes will probably be.... the same.

Fr D Maugire

dancingqueen wrote: »

This is really bang on. Irishness and being Irish is a feeling. We don't speak Irish because of "The Brits" (actual real reason) but it doesn't change our identity.

I think a lot of people from overseas cannot understand why we don't have Irish as our first language on a daily basis. In reality without knowing the history/context of Ireland, it does seem strange.

It amazes me to think that our population pretty much halved in 50 years, from the famine era to start of 20th century, and many of those who died/left were Irish speakers. According to history, there were over 3 million Irish speakers pre famine, but by the 1880s, the language was almost dead.

Why do the Dutch speak English as a second language and not French or German?

H3llR4iser

By "people back home" you mean, essentially, your friends and acquaintances OP - people YOU choose that you have affinity with.

I've seen and head this before - "The Irish are [insert derogatory comment here]" from foreigners; Problem is, they're essentially comparing a bunch of randomers met through work, at the gym or the pub, with long-time friends they have from their home country; people they've essentially selected over the years.

I've been here over 10 years and, to be entirely honest, I think it's the opposite - Especially in Dublin, I feel there's a vibrancy and variance to Irish society that it's often hard to find in other places. The sheer amount of restaurants, bars, clubs, associations, events, concerts and whatnot should alone be pretty much proof that there is indeed interest for a lot of things - all you need to do is look around; There's pretty much everything from boxing clubs to comic conventions, from heavy metal gigs to classical music concerts, from gourmet "eateries" to scandalously dirty greasy chippers. Name it, Dublin has it.

To give you metrics for comparison, I come from a huge city whose metropolitan area has as many inhabitants as the whole ROI - and the last international band to play a gig in it were (how ironic) U2 in...1993. Quite simply, even with the huge amount of people in the city, there wouldn't be nearly enough interest in such a concert to be profitable. Yet you have every kind of band or singer selling out regularly in Dublin (and a couple other places in Ireland, occasionally).

Environment and timing are obviously a big factor - walk into a sports pub during a rugby match and you'll have big chances to find a good representation of dim-dums who need to count before answering "how many fingers does your hand have?"; But that's hardly different in any country (you can replace rubgy with football, GAA, darts or whatever - makes very little difference). It's like saying "everyone in California is a rocket scientist!" after spending the day at the JPL...

partyguinness

In relation to the OP I could have written that out word for word (save for the Irish language bit) about my experience of living in England.

I often actually very often find myself knowing more about English history, politics and even the location of cities and towns that the native English.

My English wife is saddened because I just don't bother socializing with her friends and I make no bones about it- they are as boring as fcuk (male and female). They sit around for hours talking about mindless drivel- I mean absolutely nothing of interest. Current affairs, politics, music don't even exist in their world. I will be the most knowledgeable person in the room. I know more about the history and current affairs of the town I live in than my wife does having grown up here.

Does it mean I am better person? (Through gritted teeth) No- I am just exercised by different topics.

As I have to keep having to tell the wife "I don't hate your friends. I would have to find them some bit interesting to hate them. I just do not find them very interesting. Completely indifferent at best. That's all."

They couldn't tell you the first thing about Brexit (zero interest) or even name 2-3 government ministers and we are talking educated middle class background professionals here.

Let's put it this way: I have to log onto Boards for any sort of debate on current affairs. Can't find any in England. God help the pubs over here....another planet compared to home.

My 'problem' was that I am no longer surrounded by people like myself like I did back in Ireland and there is/was a resistance to stepping outside my comfort zone over here when I am surrounded by people not like myself with the same background, education or interests.

The OP may recognize a lot of this.

machaseh

mistersifter wrote: »

Insult our chippers, will you?

B*stard!

I love me aul fish and chips on a Friday evening from time to time but I mean more like getting some proper meal before hitting the pub, or even a proper meal in the pub, they DO serve them but at least the Irish people that I know would only spend their money on as much alcohol as possible.

Bishop of hope

Mattdhg wrote: »

My parents always had a rule for public socialising - never discuss sex, politics or religion.

Did you ever get a ride?

Xertz

OP, I've plenty of Dutch friends and spent time in the Netherlands and I could go through a whole laundry list of things that surprised or annoyed me about Dutch culture too, but I won't as I'm aware that different cultures are different.

Also, I'm beginning to think that there's someone trolling several forums with threads like this. There was a similar one by a different user name over in Humanities yesterday.

There isn't a long tradition of eating out in Ireland and it is basically down to rurality and a history of very little disposable income. If you want to slap Ireland around the head for having been poor in the mid 20th century, off you go.

If you go back to even the 1960s and 70s, there were very few restaurants in Ireland other than in hotels and there was no culture of eating out because people quite literally couldn't afford to do so on a regular basis. There's a thriving restaurant sector these days, but it is relatively recent.

Also a lot of Irish socialising happens in 'a public house' i.e. a 'pub'. The terminology even comes from the sense that they were a communal living room pretty much. That's quite different in a lot of continental European countries where entertaining at home was more common. Much of the UK is similar too in that regard.

You also may be confusing informality for superficiality. Irish socialising can tend to involve larger, looser groups, bigger circles and closer friendships may emerge but sometimes you wouldn't even realise that someone's a close friend until you actually need them for something. We don't really do the formality of introductions and hand shakes an so on.

I'd serious issues being understood in Frisian in Amsterdam too - disgraceful you don't all speak it tbh! - I know it's not quite the same as it's a regional dialect of Dutch, but I think you should probably get my highly sarcastic point.

Again, different places are .. different. It shouldn't really be a shock.

machaseh

dancingqueen wrote: »

This is really bang on. Irishness and being Irish is a feeling. We don't speak Irish because of "The Brits" (actual real reason) but it doesn't change our identity.

But it makes your identity super superficial and empty. Hence the point of my OP.

mistersifter

machaseh wrote: »

I love me aul fish and chips on a Friday evening from time to time but I mean more like getting some proper meal before hitting the pub, or even a proper meal in the pub, they DO serve them but at least the Irish people that I know would only spend their money on as much alcohol as possible.

Proper meal before hitting the pub?

Lightweight.


P.s. isnt dutch cuisine notoriously bad?

buried

machaseh wrote: »

But it makes your identity super superficial and empty. Hence the point of my OP.

But you are basing your whole stereotypical point on the few people you basically work with in some multinational corporation based in one town.

I can do that too

I could say I worked in McDonalds over in Amsterdam for one year and then try to claim everybody over in your country eats fast food

swarlb

machaseh wrote: »

Uhm every single thing for example?

Bad public transportation - BECAUSE OF THE BRITS NOT INVESTING

Superficial population that keeps voting for the same FF/FG gobsh1tes over and over again - BECAUSE OF THE BRITS

Bad healthcare - BRITS

Housing crisis - BRITS.

It's always the brits. Never taking their own responsibility...

Why would the 'Brits' invest, or have any interest in our transportation system, our healthcare or our houses...
I really don't understand any of what you are saying. I'm an old person (I'm guessing here that you are very young), and was born in the middle of the last century, and I can honestly say, hand on heart, that I cannot recall ever having a conversation with anyone, where the 'Brits' were blamed for any situation we Irish find ourselves in....
It's more likely the following were blamed..
Cardinal John McQuaid
Eamonm De Valera
Fianna Fail
Fine Gael
The 'Church'
You really need to hang out with some new people...

partyguinness

machaseh wrote: »

But it makes your identity super superficial and empty. Hence the point of my OP.

Yes it is a crying shame that Irish and ideally we would all speak it fluently everyday (I grew up in a Gaeltacht) but it is complicated.

I have spoken to Dutch people who are saddened by the dilution of Dutch culture and aping the English too much. Pubs, beering, darts, football etc.

I mean sometimes, it can be nigh impossible to tell a Dutch person from an English person when it comes to speaking English. Should we regard you as superficial for being such an Anglophile nation?

partyguinness

machaseh wrote: »

Uhm every single thing for example?

Bad public transportation - BECAUSE OF THE BRITS NOT INVESTING

Superficial population that keeps voting for the same FF/FG gobsh1tes over and over again - BECAUSE OF THE BRITS

Bad healthcare - BRITS

Housing crisis - BRITS.

It's always the brits. Never taking their own responsibility...

The BRITS have nothing to do with any of the above. We are more than capable of messing it ourselves.

Honestly who have you been speaking to or else they are pulling your leg.

Yeah you have to be trolling.

jam_mac_jam

machaseh wrote: »

I love me aul fish and chips on a Friday evening from time to time but I mean more like getting some proper meal before hitting the pub, or even a proper meal in the pub, they DO serve them but at least the Irish people that I know would only spend their money on as much alcohol as possible.

you need to widen the circle of Irish people you know. Do you honestly think Irish people don't eat out....are you hanging out with people who are very young or don't have much money

buried

Well, at least marychaseh has learned the word 'gobsh1te' so they've got one Irish slang word learned perfectly already

machaseh

partyguinness wrote: »

Yes it is a crying shame that Irish and ideally we would all speak it fluently everyday (I grew up in a Gaeltacht) but it is complicated.

I have spoken to Dutch people who are saddened by the dilution of Dutch culture and aping the English too much. Pubs, beering, darts, football etc.

I mean sometimes, it can be nigh impossible to tell a Dutch person from an English person when it comes to speaking English. Should we regard you as superficial for being such an Anglophile nation?

We are not anglophile, it is more that we continuously are being accused of being " racist ' because of exercising our very own ancient culture (Sinterklaas ) so many people have given up on it . Yet these " English looking " Dutch people you met will all speak Dutch as their native language, or perhaps even a traditional dialect , and you can't say that of the Irish .

I myself am a speaker of Zeeuws ( a traditional dialect from the southwest), standard Dutch, Portuguese and of course English.

Xertz

I don't know what part of the country you're in, but I find the Irish tend to, quite rightly, apportion blame directly on the political parties that were in office when things happened. For example, after the 2008 recession, Fianna Fail were utterly decimated by the electorate for quite a long time afterwards. That's in stark contrast to the trend in a lot of countries to blame the EU, immigration or other external factors for governmental policy disasters.

The majority of our pre-independence public infrastructure also came from private investment, often from local investors. The 19th century UK was more capitalist than the right wing of the modern GOP and didn't really do a lot of public infrastructure spending anywhere. Healthcare was private, transport was private. They essentially only focused on 'defence of the realm'. We're quite fully aware that both the Irish and British present day social democracies (flawed and all as they may be) only emerged post independence and post WWII in particular.

Xertz

machaseh wrote: »

We are not anglophile, it is more that we continuously are being accused of being " racist ' because of exercising our very own ancient culture (Sinterklaas ) so many people have given up on it . Yet these " English looking " Dutch people you met will all speak Dutch as their native language, or perhaps even a traditional dialect , and you can't say that of the Irish .

I myself am a speaker of Zeeuws ( a traditional dialect from the southwest), standard Dutch, Portuguese and of course English.

Good thing you were a colonial minor power back in the day or you'd probably be speaking French or German by now anyway.

Different countries have different histories, different circumstances etc. Ireland speaks English due to those circumstances and the historical context the country evolved in. It's nothing to do with some dislike of the language or some lack of patriotism.

There's also a huge difference between being a country that by accident of geography is at the crossroads of a lot of historical European transportation links and river systems, and one that's out on island in the Atlantic and had essentially no relevant natural resources other than agricultural land during the industrial revolution. It was never on a seam of iron or or coal, thus it only really began to thrive in the post-industrial era when those things mattered a whole lot less.

These are entirely accidents of geography that are regularly attributed to work ethics and culture. Other than parts of Western Norway and Iceland, Ireland's about as far flung as it gets in terms of inhabited parts of Western Europe.

Anyway I don't really even know why I'm wasting my time replying to a thread that's likely just trolling.