Why are the Irish generally superficial?

buried

Calhoun wrote: »

The OP seems to be working in one of the isolated business parks near loughlinstown. More than likely its a technical role because the market right now is crying out for people who can do that, there is allot of mobility in the role.

So I would agree with the assessment of the work environment clouding the mindset.

Nah, this particular OP is working in a "talking $hite online" role trying to make out they are a Dutch person slagging off Irish people in an attempt to get us to slag Dutch people back. That's whats going on here. But in fairness, if it was the case for anyone else that has come to work in this country in such a isolated multinational they could well believe there was no real Irish culture if all they were seeing was grey boxed off offices with bean bags for relaxment in the communal area and the employees absolutely wrecked from a 3 hour commute every morning and evening, so then at the weekend, they all go to the pub to get some sort of quick escapement out of it all. Yeah I can see it. But as I said, the OP is on a total WUM.

Calhoun

buried wrote: »

Nah, this particular OP is working in a "talking $hite online" role trying to make out they are a Dutch person slagging off Irish people in an attempt to get us to slag Dutch people back. That's whats going on here. But in fairness, if it was the case for anyone else that has come to work in this country in such a isolated multinational they could well believe there was no real Irish culture if all they were seeing was grey boxed off offices with bean bags for relaxment in the communal area and the employees absolutely wrecked from a 3 hour commute every morning and evening, so then at the weekend, they all go to the pub to get some sort of quick escapement out of it all. Yeah I can see it. But as I said, the OP is on a total WUM.

Your probably right as more often than not the multinational culture doesnt put up with such BS.

Feisar

KaneToad wrote: »

It's not that difficult to comprehend. (And I'm not talking about the language). I am one of the 1.7 million who can speak the language but have very limited opportunity to do so - therefore I wouldn't use it on a daily basis. I'm in a very common cohort.

Ah come off it! Being able to ask to go to the toilet or ask for sweets in the shop does not a Gaeilgeoir make.

machaseh

buried wrote: »

If any of ye here actual think this gadge is Dutch after they typing out words on here such as "gob$hite" & "I love me aul fish and chips" then ye are doomed.
This gadge is about as Dutch as a Samurai sword

Ik ben gewoon een Nederlander hoor, ik woon hier al twee jaar dus ja dan pik je wel wat straattaal op.

---

Im just a regular Dutch lad, I've been living here for two years so yeah then you can pick up some of the slang hah

maninasia

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Do you think there might be a logical reason why a country half the size of Ireland, but 3 times the population, situated in the heart of Europe might have a better transport system than an island where almost a quarter of the population live in one major city.

If the conversation is about public transport in Dublin it gets embarrassing quickly.

machaseh

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Your pop music is dire. I am sorry I am certain there is much about the netherlands that is better than Ireland. Except not the music.

YOUR MUSIC IS TERRIBLE! DEAR GOD! NAME A WELL KNOWN DUTCH POP BAND ?? FOLK MUSICIAN ?? CLASSICAL MUSICIAN?

Yeah i can't think of any either.

Your traditional dancing is terrible. And its no where near the standard of ours. We have professional level dancers in Irish dancing. In the Netherlands its all amateurish and pretty bad.

We speak English because we were colonized. You speak Dutch because you colonized everyone else.

Do you have any traditional sports? If they are as slow and as boring as soccer ....you don't beat hurling.

We have contributed a lot to the world of folk music and hugely to the world of pop music.

We have amazing writers. We have our own style of dance sport and music.

We do have some good modern music , and think of big names such as Within Temptation and Armin van Buren . Compare that to fekkin Bono.

We do not have traditional music or traditional dance to speak of. Keep in mind that the Netherlands was mostly Calvinist, and those guys didn't take kindly to frivolous things such as song and dance. You wouldn't see much more than a clog dance or a conga line and some schlager like folk music in this regard. As for classical music, this is also related to good ol Calvinism. Most of it restricted to religious music on the pipe organ. Dutch pipe organs are a class of their own and renowned throughout the world. But actual Dutch composers of classical music are few and far between (outside of religious music on the organ ).

Paul_Hacket

machaseh wrote: »

We do have some good modern music , and think of big names such as Within Temptation and Armin van Buren . Compare that to fekkin Bono.

We do not have traditional music or traditional dance to speak of. Keep in mind that the Netherlands was mostly Calvinist, and those guys didn't take kindly to frivolous things such as song and dance. You wouldn't see much more than a clog dance or a conga line and some schlager like folk music in this regard. As for classical music, this is also related to good ol Calvinism. Most of it restricted to religious music on the pipe organ. Dutch pipe organs are a class of their own and renowned throughout the world. But actual Dutch composers of classical music are few and far between (outside of religious music on the organ ).

While I'm not a fan of Bono, the fact that the best you can come up with for ANY form of music out Holland is some naff techno says it all.

You have no literature. No film making. No theatre. And you come on here complaining about Irish culture? Deluded much?

maninasia

machaseh wrote: »

We are not anglophile, it is more that we continuously are being accused of being " racist ' because of exercising our very own ancient culture (Sinterklaas ) so many people have given up on it . Yet these " English looking " Dutch people you met will all speak Dutch as their native language, or perhaps even a traditional dialect , and you can't say that of the Irish .

I myself am a speaker of Zeeuws ( a traditional dialect from the southwest), standard Dutch, Portuguese and of course English.

We do~t speak Irish mostly and that really is a factor of history mosrly BUT we do speak a unique form of localized English dialect that is also highly varied and distinctive due to the influence of Irish language on it and we have very strong local identities. You would know this if you were a fan of GAA for example. We have an ancient culture in Ireland that you haven't really tapped into.

And again...Our food us 100x better than Holland in my opinion . Your animals are almost all factory farmed, we still have animals on grass , and also an abundance of seafood

That you haven't tapped into it is your fault not ours.


Also Irish are ridiciusly open minded compared to most countries,especially older people. Older generation in Ireland changed their minds on maby things and aren't racist not like lots of other countries I've been to I.e. look across the water. I have vast admiration for my parents generation that way.

Antares35

machaseh wrote: »

That may be, but because I am visually impaired I am unable to enjoy the Irish countryside unless someone is willing to drive me around which literally happened only once.

I did book some paddywagon tours and all that but after a couple of those I'm kinda done with that too. Without a car it's no craic.

I think its more than your sight that's impaired to be honest.

I wouldn't drive you around either. I'd rather listen to country western on repeat than listen to a dry sh*te passenger listing all the things they hate about Ireland.

maninasia

Antares35 wrote: »

I think its more than your sight that's impaired to be honest.

I wouldn't drive you around either. I'd rather listen to country western on repeat than listen to a dry sh*te passenger listing all the things they hate about Ireland.

It's a brutal if fair characterisation.

Not many people would accuse the average Irish person of being dry ****es.

The Dutch however.....Sorry Dutch friends 😠(add it to the tab you are keeping ).

MayoAreMagic

Paul_Hacket wrote: »

While I'm not a fan of Bono, the fact that the best you can come up with for ANY form of music out Holland is some naff techno says it all.

You have no literature. No film making. No theatre. And you come on here complaining about Irish culture? Deluded much?

I really dont get why you have to go on the attack and make it a kind of tit for tat type thing. Im irish, but im willing to listen to the guy explain his view and discuss it in a relaxed manner. It doesnt mean I think he is right and I will decide myself what I think once I have heard him out, and while doing so, I will keep an open mind. Surely that is only reasonable?

Also, your specifying on a dutch writer, as opposed to just a dutch person who has given something to the arts, was pretty clearly, a deliberate attempt to avoid vincent van gogh...

MayoAreMagic

maninasia wrote: »

Also Irish are ridiciusly open minded compared to most countries,especially older people. Older generation in Ireland changed their minds on maby things and aren't racist not like lots of other countries I've been to I.e. look across the water. I have vast admiration for my parents generation that way.

Are they? What are the odds of neither FF or FG being in the majority in the coming election?
How late were we with the divorce referendum as opposed to other 1st world countries?
How recently were the church still holding sway on things that had nothing to do with them? Ridiculously open minded is a serious stretch.

Re 'across the water'. If anyone thinks that the same attitudes wouldnt be in force here if we had the numbers of immigrants that they have, then they are very naive.

Paul_Hacket

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I really dont get why you have to go on the attack and make it a kind of tit for tat type thing. Im irish, but im willing to listen to the guy explain his view and discuss it in a relaxed manner. It doesnt mean I think he is right and I will decide myself what I think once I have heard him out, and while doing so, I will keep an open mind. Surely that is only reasonable?

Also, your specifying on a dutch writer, as opposed to just a dutch person who has given something to the arts, was pretty clearly, a deliberate attempt to avoid vincent van gogh...

Did you read his posts? Have a look through his history and get back to me. It's just vitriol and nonsense. There is zero nuance to his points. He's not claiming there is less culture here or whatever, but that there is basically none. It's fair to point out that Holland has made virtually zero contribution to either popular culture or the fine arts over the past 50 years. Again, you might want to take a look through his posting history before defending this troublemaker. He's a troll same as that guy yesterday who was claiming ALL Irish people are rude, racist etc.

Paul_Hacket

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Are they? What are the odds of neither FF or FG being in the majority in the coming election?
How late were we with the divorce referendum as opposed to other 1st world countries?
How recently were the church still holding sway on things that had nothing to do with them? Ridiculously open minded is a serious stretch.

Re 'across the water'. If anyone thinks that the same attitudes wouldnt be in force here if we had the numbers of immigrants that they have, then they are very naive.

Nobody here is saying Ireland is perfect. He is making comparisons with the Netherlands. The second largest party in the Dutch parliament right now is a far right group of fantatics who thinks all mosques should be banned, climate change is a conspiracy, criminals should be categorized by their ethnic origins, etc. etc.

I think Ireland is pretty frigging open minded when compared to that.

Bit cynical

SozBbz wrote: »

What is your obsession with the language? You keep bringing the subject back up out of nowhere.

Are you sad that we're not quaint little ginger folk running around pixi forts singing in our funny little language?

Admittedly we have a hypocritical approach to the Irish language here in Ireland.

I think there may also be some truth the superficiality thing. I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing but will not be to everyone's taste. On the other hand, Irish people may find some cultures a bit dour or overly blunt.

MMXX

I love the Dutch - and I love Holland, it is in my opinion the second most beautiful country in the world. The people, the landscape, the houses, the countryside, architecture, the windmills, the sea, the canals, the food, the bicycles, the trains - I could go on and on. I love Holland, it's a great country - with great people, and I sincerely mean that.

Now. Just to address one of your points... m'Lord - if I may...

The 'Brit' thing, the 'bashing the Brits' thing that you keep banging on about... It might seem strange to you, I concede - a Nederlander, or an Englishman, indeed a Frenchman or German - but for those of us in countries that were suppressed, invaded, killed, starved, raped, pillaged and plundered - by the old colonial powers, it's not so strange.

If you were to visit the countries of Belguim, Brazil, Ivory Coast, French Guiana, Ghana, Guyana, Indonesia, Luxembourg, Mauritius, The United States, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Surianame - and any other countries or lands, that the Dutch Empire sought to control, to dominate, to steal from - I would suspect that many of the people there may just too remember, quite unfondly - the theft of their land, and their resources, the killing of their people - the many atrocities and crimes, mercilessly visited upon them - by the Dutch Empire.

Now, I'm not one to hold grudges - nobody should be held responsible for the crimes of their forefathers, not the British - nor the Dutch, the son of a murderer - or the daughter of a thief... but if you're going to criticise the fine people of this country - for pointing out that 800 years of oppression, has stunted our growth, as a people - indeed as a nation, then maybe should attempt to understand where they are coming from, when they say things like this - and look a bit deeper, as to why they are saying it. I do urge you to.

You might just find that there is indeed truth in their ramblings - however unpleasant to your fine, Dutch ears.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

machaseh wrote: »

I love me aul fish and chips on a Friday evening from time to time but I mean more like getting some proper meal before hitting the pub, or even a proper meal in the pub, they DO serve them but at least the Irish people that I know would only spend their money on as much alcohol as possible.

You see, this is because the Dutch are quite a sensible and logical bunch on the whole... like you said yourself, the history of strict calvinist traditions probably gave most of you guys this mentality.

I know you guys like to portray yourselves as very relaxed as a culture, with all the weed etc... but really this is probably a deliberate push back from generations of strict religious rigidity!

Us Irish do not really have a history of such strictness - even at the height of our catholic dominated society... we we're still quite a wild and untamed bunch of people.

Even though you will find plenty of well educated and bright people on this Island, most Irish people do not really put a lot of deep thought and planning into their daily lives... it's more about living for the moment and doing what feels good or whatever happens to be popular at that time. This obviously can be both a strength and at times a weakness too in our culture...

I find myself getting frustrated with these characteristics sometimes... but then I also realize that we are quite a unique culture too, and there is a lot to admire and enjoy about the Irish way of life.

I agree that you can identify plenty of things that would be deemed as superficial in our culture... the Dutch, for example, would certainly be far more capable of coming up with original ideas and being innovative with problem solving etc. But then you didn't have big brother Britannia making all of your decisions for you and bossing you around for 100's of years either...

But I think we are very open to new influences on this Island, so I don't think it will be too long into the future before we start becoming more innovative and thinking outside the box a bit more... I can already see it happening in the last 10 years... but these things take time. We are very young as an independent country... I think we are only in the early stages in terms of finding our feet as a modern culture. The more confident we become as a fully independent nation, the more varied things will become in the future...

So, yes we can be a bit superficial as culture at times... but it's just a phase we're going through... like a teenager slavishly trying to fit in... but we'll grow up and grow out of this phase in due course!

Always Tired

OP thinks the Dutch make good music so what is the sense in arguing at that point. No one outside of Holland could name a single Dutch musician. And if I can, in the spirit of the thread, make the argument that their lack of creative output is synonymous with them being one of the 'zero craic' types of Europeans, like the Germans and Nordics. But theyre even worse than either of those tbh.

Bishop of hope

Always Tired wrote: »

OP thinks the Dutch make good music so what is the sense in arguing at that point. No one outside of Holland could name a single Dutch musician. And if I can, in the spirit of the thread, make the argument that their lack of creative output is synonymous with them being one of the 'zero craic' types of Europeans, like the Germans and Nordics. But theyre even worse than either of those tbh.

They have Amsterdam and a good football team.

machaseh

MMXX wrote: »

I love the Dutch - and I love Holland, it is in my opinion the second most beautiful country in the world. The people, the landscape, the houses, the countryside, architecture, the windmills, the sea, the canals, the food, the bicycles, the trains - I could go on and on. I love Holland, it's a great country - with great people, and I sincerely mean that.

Now. Just to address one of your points... m'Lord - if I may...

The 'Brit' thing, the 'bashing the Brits' thing that you keep banging on about... It might seem strange to you, I concede - a Nederlander, or an Englishman, indeed a Frenchman or German - but for those of us in countries that were suppressed, invaded, killed, starved, raped, pillaged and plundered - by the old colonial powers, it's not so strange.

If you were to visit the countries of Belguim, Brazil, Ivory Coast, French Guiana, Ghana, Guyana, Indonesia, Luxembourg, Mauritius, The United States, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Surianame - and any other countries or lands, that the Dutch Empire sought to control, to dominate, to steal from - I would suspect that many of the people there may just too remember, quite unfondly - the theft of their land, and their resources, the killing of their people - the many atrocities and crimes, mercilessly visited upon them - by the Dutch Empire.

Now, I'm not one to hold grudges - nobody should be held responsible for the crimes of their forefathers, not the British - nor the Dutch, the son of a murderer - or the daughter of a thief... but if you're going to criticise the fine people of this country - for pointing out that 800 years of oppression, has stunted our growth, as a people - indeed as a nation, then maybe should attempt to understand where they are coming from, when they say things like this - and look a bit deeper, as to why they are saying it. I do urge you to.

You might just find that there is indeed truth in their ramblings - however unpleasant to your fine, Dutch ears.

The only people that I've ever heard complain about Dutch colonialism have been Americans and other Europeans. All Indonesians and Surinamese that I've met love the Netherlands and the Dutch . Because they know it could have been far worse :

.the Brits could have colonized their land, killed a good part of the population and could have killed their language.

Like what happened to the Irish which is why I was prompted to make my thread, as it seems to me as if the entire soul has been sucked out of this island and its people , leaving only superficial shells that want to buy as much alcohol for their money as possible and if possible something to sniff too without development of any kind of interesting cultural hobby , at least the Irish that I've met that is.

For example, if you go to Indonesia, you will find exactly zero people that speak Dutch. Why is that ? Because rather than imposing our language and religion upon the locals there, the Dutch decided that teaching the Dutch language to the indonesians would be way too difficult for them (Dutch is very hard to pronounce !). Instead the dutch learned their local indigenous languages and used that in administration !

machaseh

Always Tired wrote: »

OP thinks the Dutch make good music so what is the sense in arguing at that point. No one outside of Holland could name a single Dutch musician. And if I can, in the spirit of the thread, make the argument that their lack of creative output is synonymous with them being one of the 'zero craic' types of Europeans, like the Germans and Nordics. But theyre even worse than either of those tbh.

Why the focus on music ?

The Netherlands has contemporary music as much as any other country , it's just that you wouldn't understand any of the lyrics of a Dutch song because Irish people are notoriously poor language Learners (including acquiring their own language Irish ), so of course you wouldn't know much about it at all.

Where Ireland clearly beats the Netherlands is in terms of traditional music and traditional dance. This is something that no Dutch person in their right mind would ever deny. But as far as my knowledge goes we've never really had strong trad in the Netherlands, Just like other Germanic speaking people's don't really have that. That truly is more of a Celtic thing.

And incidentally how many Irish people my age you think I've met who have any sort of interest in trad music or Irish dance ? Exactly : zero. If I do go to a pub with trad it's filled with elderly people and also tourists.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

machaseh wrote: »

The only people that I've ever heard complain about Dutch colonialism have been Americans and other Europeans. All Indonesians and Surinamese that I've met love the Netherlands and the Dutch . Because they know it could have been far worse :

.the Brits could have colonized their land, killed a good part of the population and could have killed their language.

Like what happened to the Irish which is why I was prompted to make my thread, as it seems to me as if the entire soul has been sucked out of this island and its people , leaving only superficial shells that want to buy as much alcohol for their money as possible and if possible something to sniff too without development of any kind of interesting cultural hobby , at least the Irish that I've met that is.

For example, if you go to Indonesia, you will find exactly zero people that speak Dutch. Why is that ? Because rather than imposing our language and religion upon the locals there, the Dutch decided that teaching the Dutch language to the indonesians would be way too difficult for them (Dutch is very hard to pronounce !). Instead the dutch learned their local indigenous languages and used that in administration !

I think the Brits were just better at colonialism than the Dutch tbh... not that I particularly like colonialism, of course, but it was very popular for a time!

Making literally billions of people around the world speak your language, instead of learning every native tongue when you colonize a new territory... it's actually very smart and more efficient.

Even New York was once called New Amsterdam... but then the Brits kicked you guys out of there too!

You don't need to speak Irish in order to enjoy Irish culture. If you did, then millions of tourists would have no appreciation of our culture, simply because they didn't learn any Gaeilge... which is clearly not the case.

And the same is true for Dutch too... your culture exists even if you stopped speaking your language. Speaking your native tongue also does not give you any strategic advantages in the world over anyone else.

Your ability to speak English is potentially far more important to you, than speaking Dutch as it is more widely spoken... The Brits actually did us a big favour by making us fluent in English... in fact there are many things that Dutch people do not understand, because your English is not at the same level as someone who speaks it as their first and (often) only language!

Many Europeans are great a learning different languages... but you guys also give far more relevance and importance to it than is actually warranted. Sure it's a nice skill... but so is juggling or riding a one-wheeled bike... But I get by perfectly fine without those skills as well. I've been in many European countries - including the Netherlands - I've never felt my lack of ability with the native tongue to be a major problem or hindrance. Actually it's just fun trying to communicate, but most Europeans have okay English anyway... so it's not a big problem!

machaseh

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

I think the Brits were just better at colonialism than the Dutch tbh... not that I particularly like colonialism, of course, but it was very popular for a time!

Making literally billions of people around the world speak your language, instead of learning every native tongue when you colonize a new territory... it's actually very smart and more efficient.

Even New York was once called New Amsterdam... but then the Brits kicked you guys out of there too!

You don't need to speak Irish in order to enjoy Irish culture. If you did, then millions of tourists would have no appreciation of our culture, simply because they didn't learn any Gaeilge... which is clearly not the case.

And the same is true for Dutch too... your culture exists even if you stopped speaking your language. Speaking your native tongue also does not give you any strategic advantages in the world over anyone else.

Your ability to speak English is potentially far more important to you, than speaking Dutch as it is more widely spoken... The Brits actually did us a big favour by making us fluent in English... in fact there are many things that Dutch people do not understand, because your English is not at the same level as someone who speaks it as their first and (often) only language!

Many Europeans are great a learning different languages... but you guys also give far more relevance and importance to it than is actually warranted. Sure it's a nice skill... but so is juggling or riding a one-wheeled bike... But I get by perfectly fine without those skills as well. I've been in many European countries - including the Netherlands - I've never felt my lack of ability with the native tongue to be a major problem or hindrance. Actually it's just fun trying to communicate, but most Europeans have okay English anyway... so it's not a big problem!

Ewwww. You sound like a Fine Gael voter or Westbrit. Begone !

endabob1

machaseh wrote: »

So as a background I moved over here from Holland a bit more than 2 years ago. What I have noticed a lot with Irish people is a prevailing sense of superficiality, and I wonder why this is so. I'll explain this a bit more below.

For example, the go-to activity for Irish people would be to go out drinking at the pub. Now there's nothing wrong with that, in the Netherlands we like our pints too. But in the pub you already start noticing the prevailing cultural superficiality of many Irish folks as compared to the Netherlands.

For example, eating out to get a proper meal before going to the pub seems to be uncommon. Whenever I'd propose something like that it'd be like 'nah im broke'. Even if it's been payday. It seems like Irish people just want to spend their money on alcohol rather than on a total, more enjoyable experience. I'm not saying they never get food, but it'd be more something like a cheapo pizza in the pub, maybe some chips, or perhaps some (bad quality) kebab or go to the chipper afterwards rather than do something nice in the food department.

The choice of drink is also generally not interesting, most Irish people would go for the coors light, Heineken (which by the way is considered the worst 'standard' beer in the Netherlands, yes I know it's from our country), and more importantly most would stick to only one type of beer for the night. Some lads with a bit more money would , fair play to them, go for the more expensive whiskeys but that's more of an exception than the rule.

The conversations is where the superficiality prevails though. Most irish people that I met have little if any knowledge of the Irish language, for example. Politics generally seems to be an absolutely taboo subject, while it would be normal for us to talk about that back home. They all seem to vote for FF/FG just because their parents did without thinking twice of it.

There also seems to be a general lack of interest in culture, such as the arts or music.

I wonder why Irish people are so superficial. Or is this just a Dublin thing? I just feel as if people back home are a lot more interesting in many aspects.

I spent a summer in Holland as a student and heard something similar from a teenager I was working with and I put it down to him being a bit naive and believing all the cliche's, I half expected him to ask if I had a crock of gold stashed away with my lucky charms etc...

Culturally there are vast differences between Dutch & Irish, of that there is little doubt
Our drinking culture is very different and as someone who has lived abroad for 20+ years I actually prefer the more tempered approach of quality over quantity that you get in Europe, but Ireland is definitely changing in that regard and has been for a long time. There are much more options, craft brewery's all over the shop, great little gin distillers and even some bloody good single malt whiskeys.
As for food, well as pointed out elsewhere you are equating going on a session ie. a night out with pretty much the sole purpose of getting leathered with a sociable night out for dinner and drinks.....
I do the former very occasionally and the latter very regularly. Actually I think Ireland has an excellent food culture, it is rooted in traditional irish produce and to give an example, Galway a city of just 80,000 has 2 Michelin star restaurants along with many other award winning eateries. I don't know how many there are in Dublin but there are 2 x 2 star places, there is great food in Ireland. I would say in some small towns in Ireland it is still a bit rubbish, but as a rule of thumb I think it is pretty good. It would be easy for example to say that the UK has terrible food (as is the cliche) because there are so many hungry horse type 2 meals for a tenner type of pubs but in general the food in the UK is excellent if you bother to look for it. Great ethnic foods, you can eat authentic food from pretty much every corner of the world, but I know people who visit and say "The food is terrible" because they have just eaten pre-packaged frozen crap in a wetherspoons

AS for there being a lack of interest in the arts, i think this is genuinely the most ludicrous thing I have ever read on Boards and that takes some doing, so congrats on that.

Lack of interest in fine art, yes, that I would agree with. Holland has a long and distinguished history of producing amazing artists, Ireland does not have that history, historically for a variety of reasons I would suggest, as a poor nation the resources required weren't widely available, being one
But theatre, prose, poetry, music? In all of these Ireland has punched way above its weight in the world. Ireland has always had vibrant music scenes. I was at a folk festival in Glasgow recently where half the performers were Irish, Irish folk music is played in pubs up and down the country week in week out.
From Van Morrison through Boomtown Rats and the Punk/new wave era through to U2, the cranberries and even boy bands there are countless Irish acts that have been hugely successful and as a nation I think we listen to far more music than virtually anywhere else I have lived or travelled.
Add to that the playwrights, I stand to be corrected but I think Ireland has more Nobel laureates for literature per captia than any other country...
I suggest this summer after you indulge in some blooms day celebrations for James Joyce, you get out of Dublin and head to the Galway Arts festival, maybe take in Willie Clancy week in Clare for some good traditional music sessions or head to Kilkenny for the Arts festival there...

I struggled to believe that your post was genuine but if it is then you probably need to look at yourself and your immediate circle because there is a whole world of Ireland out there that you are missing out on

creditcarder

Irish people need to gain some confidence. I have been to about half of the EU countries and they all have their pros and cons, and Ireland, imo, has a charm that can't be beat.



Just because a foreigner complains about Irleand doesn't mean you have to get ashamed :P

partyguinness

I can tell you Ireland has changed remarkably for the better over the past 10 years since I moved abroad. I can see it every time I am back visiting. Some places are unrecognizable.

partyguinness

Lads, the OP is trolling. He is not a Dutch ex pat.

mlem123

machaseh wrote: »

The only people that I've ever heard complain about Dutch colonialism have been Americans and other Europeans. All Indonesians and Surinamese that I've met love the Netherlands and the Dutch . Because they know it could have been far worse :

.the Brits could have colonized their land, killed a good part of the population and could have killed their language.

Like what happened to the Irish which is why I was prompted to make my thread, as it seems to me as if the entire soul has been sucked out of this island and its people , leaving only superficial shells that want to buy as much alcohol for their money as possible and if possible something to sniff too without development of any kind of interesting cultural hobby , at least the Irish that I've met that is.

For example, if you go to Indonesia, you will find exactly zero people that speak Dutch. Why is that ? Because rather than imposing our language and religion upon the locals there, the Dutch decided that teaching the Dutch language to the indonesians would be way too difficult for them (Dutch is very hard to pronounce !). Instead the dutch learned their local indigenous languages and used that in administration !

I was willing to think that you were just homesick or something but now you've decided to romanticise Colonialism???

I know you say the dutch arrived to these countries with tulips and promises and peace and love etc etc but I think you've either had a questionable education or are just plain ignorant?

A quick google show's that you're incorrect. The Dutch (like any other colonial power) moved into someone else's land to profit from native resources and to exert power. You mention how much Suriname people love the Dutch.. but realistically you guys removed a load of native, exploited them for their sugar using slaves and indentured servants from Africa and Asia. Also Dutch is the official language.

And shall we not even start on South Africa? All the good you guys did there too..

God, why is it that every colonising country teaches their children that "colonialism was bad but OURS was actually good"? Time to remove the rose tinted glasses.. or at least stop smoking as much green next time you're home..

bullpost

machaseh wrote: »

The only people that I've ever heard complain about Dutch colonialism have been Americans and other Europeans. All Indonesians and Surinamese that I've met love the Netherlands and the Dutch . Because they know it could have been far worse :

.the Brits could have colonized their land, killed a good part of the population and could have killed their language.

Like what happened to the Irish which is why I was prompted to make my thread, as it seems to me as if the entire soul has been sucked out of this island and its people , leaving only superficial shells that want to buy as much alcohol for their money as possible and if possible something to sniff too without development of any kind of interesting cultural hobby , at least the Irish that I've met that is.

For example, if you go to Indonesia, you will find exactly zero people that speak Dutch. Why is that ? Because rather than imposing our language and religion upon the locals there, the Dutch decided that teaching the Dutch language to the indonesians would be way too difficult for them (Dutch is very hard to pronounce !). Instead the dutch learned their local indigenous languages and used that in administration !

Hmmm - https://theundefeated.com/features/netherlands-might-be-tolerant-but-racism-exists-for-people-of-color/

Calhoun

mlem123 wrote: »

I was willing to think that you were just homesick or something but now you've decided to romanticise Colonialism???

I know you say the dutch arrived to these countries with tulips and promises and peace and love etc etc but I think you've either had a questionable education or are just plain ignorant?

A quick google show's that you're incorrect. The Dutch (like any other colonial power) moved into someone else's land to profit from native resources and to exert power. You mention how much Suriname people love the Dutch.. but realistically you guys removed a load of native, exploited them for their sugar using slaves and indentured servants from Africa and Asia. Also Dutch is the official language.

And shall we not even start on South Africa? All the good you guys did there too..

God, why is it that every colonising country teaches their children that "colonialism was bad but OURS was actually good"? Time to remove the rose tinted glasses.. or at least stop smoking as much green next time you're home..

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/dutch-colonization-wreaked-havoc-from-asia-to-africa/1075570

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14623528.2012.719375?src=recsys&journalCode=cjgr20

https://www.newmandala.org/digging-dutch-colonial-past/

Doesn't take but a brief search.