Why are the Irish generally superficial?

machaseh

mlem123 wrote: »

I was willing to think that you were just homesick or something but now you've decided to romanticise Colonialism???

I know you say the dutch arrived to these countries with tulips and promises and peace and love etc etc but I think you've either had a questionable education or are just plain ignorant?

A quick google show's that you're incorrect. The Dutch (like any other colonial power) moved into someone else's land to profit from native resources and to exert power. You mention how much Suriname people love the Dutch.. but realistically you guys removed a load of native, exploited them for their sugar using slaves and indentured servants from Africa and Asia. Also Dutch is the official language.

And shall we not even start on South Africa? All the good you guys did there too..

God, why is it that every colonising country teaches their children that "colonialism was bad but OURS was actually good"? Time to remove the rose tinted glasses.. or at least stop smoking as much green next time you're home..

I am not the one who brought up colonialism of the Dutch, am I now? For some reason, every time I say something about Ireland, people start whinging about Dutch colonialism which is 100% irrelevant to the topic of this thread. We never colonized Ireland now did we?

I would never defend wrongdoings of Dutch people, but if people say historically incorrect facts then what do you expect me to do, be silent about it? The fact of the matter is that we respected the local customs, religions and languages, even if aside from that we did violate the human rights of the local population just like any other major power in history has done, and no not only Europeans let alone only the Dutch.

MMXX

machaseh wrote: »

The only people that I've ever heard complain about Dutch colonialism have been Americans and other Europeans. All Indonesians and Surinamese that I've met love the Netherlands and the Dutch.

Between the Irish people you've met, while drinking in bars, wondering to yourself why the Irish drink so much - to the Indonesians and Surinamese that you've met that 'love the Netherlands' and 'the Dutch' - I put it to you, that you're meeting all the wrong people, everywhere you go. Is it so strange, that in a pub, in Ireland - there would be Irish people? Have you met Indonesians from Sulawesi? I should imagine they, to name but one people - do not love the Dutch.

machaseh wrote: »

Because they know it could have been far worse :

.the Brits could have colonized their land, killed a good part of the population and could have killed their language.

Yes! That's the spirit! You're becoming one of us now!

machaseh wrote: »

Like what happened to the Irish which is why I was prompted to make my thread, as it seems to me as if the entire soul has been sucked out of this island and its people , leaving only superficial shells that want to buy as much alcohol for their money as possible and if possible something to sniff too without development of any kind of interesting cultural hobby , at least the Irish that I've met that is.

It wasn't sucked out of us, more beaten out of us. But as a previous poster has suggested - it's still there, it just runs very deep. Perhaps too deep for your fine, Dutch eye to see.

machaseh wrote: »

For example, if you go to Indonesia, you will find exactly zero people that speak Dutch. Why is that ? Because rather than imposing our language and religion upon the locals there, the Dutch decided that teaching the Dutch language to the indonesians would be way too difficult for them (Dutch is very hard to pronounce !). Instead the dutch learned their local indigenous languages and used that in administration !

Clever masters!

dancingqueen

machaseh wrote: »

But it makes your identity super superficial and empty. Hence the point of my OP.

No it doesn't. You can't pinpoint my identity at all, because you don't know me.

dancingqueen

machaseh wrote: »

We are not anglophile, it is more that we continuously are being accused of being " racist ' because of exercising our very own ancient culture (Sinterklaas ) so many people have given up on it . Yet these " English looking " Dutch people you met will all speak Dutch as their native language, or perhaps even a traditional dialect , and you can't say that of the Irish .

I myself am a speaker of Zeeuws ( a traditional dialect from the southwest), standard Dutch, Portuguese and of course English.

We have different Irish dialects, and we have many different ways of speaking about things depending on which part of Ireland we're from (In English) too but how can you be expected to know that?

MMXX

machaseh wrote: »

We never colonized Ireland now did we?

No, you didn't m'Lord - and we are very, very grateful to you, thank you m'Lord. A fine, fine man you are, rich of spirit - and of soul.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

machaseh wrote: »

Ewwww. You sound like a Fine Gael voter or Westbrit. Begone !

You sound like you're struggling to make a intelligent retort to my points!

You also appear to be sinking quite badly in this thread... the waters of logic have breached your poorly constructed defence!

A true Dutchman would have had sounder foundations on which to base their arguments. Perhaps you are more like the Flying Dutchman! :pac:

dancingqueen

machaseh wrote: »

And incidentally how many Irish people my age you think I've met who have any sort of interest in trad music or Irish dance ? Exactly : zero. If I do go to a pub with trad it's filled with elderly people and also tourists.

WRONG. I work in this industry and this is balderdash.

machaseh

dancingqueen wrote: »

WRONG. I work in this industry and this is balderdash.

Where do you live?

Mind you I live in Dublin which basically is the least Irish city in all of Ireland; in fact I have encountered much more Trad music even in the oh-so-despised city of Belfast than I have in Dublin.

dancingqueen

machaseh wrote: »

Where do you live?

Mind you I live in Dublin which basically is the least Irish city in all of Ireland; in fact I have encountered much more Trad music even in the oh-so-despised city of Belfast than I have in Dublin.

Why is it relevant to you? You know f**k all about it. I've been engrossed in the Irish trad scene for my whole life. You are talking out of your very tight Dutch hole.

endabob1

partyguinness wrote: »

I can tell you Ireland has changed remarkably for the better over the past 10 years since I moved abroad. I can see it every time I am back visiting. Some places are unrecognizable.

partyguinness wrote: »

Lads, the OP is trolling. He is not a Dutch ex pat.

I agree with both these posts

rdwight

KaneToad wrote: »

It's not that difficult to comprehend. (And I'm not talking about the language). I am one of the 1.7 million who can speak the language but have very limited opportunity to do so - therefore I wouldn't use it on a daily basis. I'm in a very common cohort.

If the 1.7m figure is to be believed, and I would be very doubtful about it, then at least 1 in 3 people you meet every day can speak Irish. Sounds like lots of opportunity. Less than 10% of that number speak Polish and I get lots of chances to practice my kilka slów.

ghost of ireland past

Irish people are incredibly repressed and cannot speak about certain things. Very important things, like our own sexuality, and the future of our country.

We are superficial in that regard. Very few philosophers in Ireland.

Also, the aggression aimed the OP demonstrates our insecurity and our inability to deal with different opinions.

I am not proud to be Irish. We are backward, insular, and we are failing to preserve our society and our culture, such as it is.

What is there to be proud of?

machaseh

dancingqueen wrote: »

Why is it relevant to you? You know f**k all about it. I've been engrossed in the Irish trad scene for my whole life. You are talking out of your very tight Dutch hole.

I don't need to know your address, but if you live in Dublin then this honestly surprises me a great deal.

The only place where I regularly see trad music is Temple Bar (and it's honestly not the best of this kind) and the Cobblestone (the one proper trad pub I've encountered in Dublin). Also theres this one place I forgot the name of in Dublin 8, it's a bit off the beaten path and kinda far from my home but to my surprise when I walked in there with my mate they were playing Trad music.

If you have any tips for proper pubs with proper trad sessions going on somewhere around Phibs or the city center, PLEASE let me know. Maybe I will start to like ireland more then.

machaseh

rdwight wrote: »

If the 1.7m figure is to be believed, and I would be very doubtful about it, then at least 1 in 3 people you meet every day can speak Irish. Sounds like lots of opportunity. Less than 10% of that number speak Polish and I get lots of chances to practice my kilka slów.

I hear more people speaking Brazilian portuguese (a language which I happen to speak too by the way) as well as a host of Eastern European language (mostly but not exclusively polish) than Irish. In fact sometimes even more of those than English in some neighbourhoods.

KaneToad

rdwight wrote: »

If the 1.7m figure is to be believed, and I would be very doubtful about it, then at least 1 in 3 people you meet every day can speak Irish. Sounds like lots of opportunity. Less than 10% of that number speak Polish and I get lots of chances to practice my kilka slów.

Literally everyone in the country was asked if they can speak Irish. (Census 2016)

1.77m people responded saying that they could. Those are indisputable facts.

MMXX

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

What is there to be proud of?

Breakfast rolls.

swarlb

machaseh wrote: »

I am not the one who brought up colonialism of the Dutch, am I now? For some reason, every time I say something about Ireland, people start whinging about Dutch colonialism which is 100% irrelevant to the topic of this thread. We never colonized Ireland now did we?

I would never defend wrongdoings of Dutch people, but if people say historically incorrect facts then what do you expect me to do, be silent about it? The fact of the matter is that we respected the local customs, religions and languages, even if aside from that we did violate the human rights of the local population just like any other major power in history has done, and no not only Europeans let alone only the Dutch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_III_of_England

Have a read.... it's YOUR history as well...

inforfun

Op, do me a favour. Pretend to be from another country than The Netherlands next time.
Getting my ass kicked here.

If you really have been here for almost 2 years now, you would have been aware that only Irish are allowed to criticise Irish.

MMXX

machaseh wrote: »

Maybe I will start to like ireland more then.

O will you m"Lord? Do you promise m'Lord? That would make us all terribly pleased, O I am indeed excited!

antix80

I think your definition of "superficial" is off.. you mean we're not cultured enough for you. You just need to hang out in different circles really.

Personally, I had the misfortune of meeting a dutch girl while in a fairly multicultural house share of about 8 people. We called her "Hitler" because she was so bossy and regimented.. and she was obsessed with meals, often having her friends over for MEALS instead of drinks! We were a group composed of Italian, Polish, Irish and a few other nationalities, and she was the only one obsessed with dragging everyone together for a meal followed by herbal tea. Whatever floats your boat.

Well, as someone fairly uncouth I'll tell you some of the logic behind why I lack culture.

The night out you're describing is a night on the beer & nothing more. Which means, you're not going for a meal because it's too formal, too heavy, takes too long, too much organising, and you wouldn't be fit to drink a feed of easy-to-drink p*ss water (aka carlsberg, heineken, etc).

If you're interested in wining and dining, I suggest getting a partner, going out with other couples, or just saying to a friend that you'd like to check out a place and see if they'd like to join you (instead of pints).

As for politics. Sure, some people have no interest.. but some groups of friends avoid political discussions because the far-leftist of the group, insufferable enough without alcohol, will try to bring everything down with their doom and gloom about how the poor can't pay and that the earth is literally burning because of global warming. We hear enough of that in the media without talking about it in the pub. And then you have the more right-leaning folk who prefer to make sweeping statements for the banter, and you're not going to get too far talking about European institutions with people like that who just want to bash political correctness.

The Irish Language.. you know you're in the Pale, right? No one cares about the Irish language except for the culchies and primary school teachers.

And as for lack of interest in culture, such as the arts and music.. some people are obsessed with arts and music, for many their interest stops at pop music and netflix. I do think Irish people are pretty bad for not going to museums or showing interest in arts and culture. I guess it's inherited from parents who weren't into it, and schools that suck any joy out of those areas or focus too much on Irish mythology, Irish History and god-damn boring Irish poetry throughout the primary and second-level education system.

mlem123

machaseh wrote: »

I am not the one who brought up colonialism of the Dutch, am I now? For some reason, every time I say something about Ireland, people start whinging about Dutch colonialism which is 100% irrelevant to the topic of this thread. We never colonized Ireland now did we?

I would never defend wrongdoings of Dutch people, but if people say historically incorrect facts then what do you expect me to do, be silent about it? The fact of the matter is that we respected the local customs, religions and languages, even if aside from that we did violate the human rights of the local population just like any other major power in history has done, and no not only Europeans let alone only the Dutch.

Actually you did bring it up. Many posters here pointed out to you that many don't speak Irish day to say as it was beaten out of us by our colonial rulers! Your argument was that that wasn't a case in dutch colonies as the dutch didn't make them :rolleyes:

Also I don't think you can be so virtuous about your colonial past when you took thousands of acres of lands and gave them to white farmers. Sure that wasn't an affront on people beliefs or language, but you created a 2 tier society in South Africa (and probably most other countries), you demolished most avenues for native people to make a living, cut their voices out of decision making and allowed poverty to rise, disproportionately affecting those native by discriminating against them and their local customs, religions and languages.

Also lets all take a minute to recognise that you said "even if aside from that we did violate the human rights" that big IF

SozBbz

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

Irish people are incredibly repressed and cannot speak about certain things. Very important things, like our own sexuality, and the future of our country.

We are superficial in that regard. Very few philosophers in Ireland.

Also, the aggression aimed the OP demonstrates our insecurity and our inability to deal with different opinions.

I am not proud to be Irish. We are backward, insular, and we are failing to preserve our society and our culture, such as it is.

What is there to be proud of?

Insular? Backward? Did you not notice the 2 referendums in the last few years on same sex marriage and legalising safe abortion? Quite literally our population was shown to care about the rights of others and voted to allow more freedoms for all.

What is there to be proud of? Speak for yourself. You sound like nothing but a neg.

Internalised hatred is a terrible thing.

amadangomor

As an Irishman who lived in the Netherlands I had the sense to get out as soon as differences of culture started to annoy me. I suggest you do the same for your own sanity.

I worked in a working class Dutch environment and most of the people I worked were hardly cultured, which is as you would find with most working class people in the Western World.

The thing that broke me was an example of cold Dutch individuality. Someone had the opportunity to help me with a medical problem I had but they kept stum because I had done something against his advice that caused the medical problem in the first place. So his logic was that I should suffer because I did something against advice. I just thought - time to go home as very few Irish people would be that uncompassionate.

Not all but a lot of Dutch people have black and white limited thinking but as we know the World is full of grey areas and a hard and set rule doesn't work for every situation.

dancingqueen

machaseh wrote: »

I don't need to know your address, but if you live in Dublin then this honestly surprises me a great deal.

The only place where I regularly see trad music is Temple Bar (and it's honestly not the best of this kind) and the Cobblestone (the one proper trad pub I've encountered in Dublin). Also theres this one place I forgot the name of in Dublin 8, it's a bit off the beaten path and kinda far from my home but to my surprise when I walked in there with my mate they were playing Trad music.

If you have any tips for proper pubs with proper trad sessions going on somewhere around Phibs or the city center, PLEASE let me know. Maybe I will start to like ireland more then.

You are not from here, you have not grown up with it, you do NOT know what you are talking about. You come on here and insult our country, our languages, our history, everything an then you say you'd like it more if you knew where there was more trad music. It's everywhere. Temple Bar is a tourist attraction and in fairness, has given a lot of our very talented singers, musicians and dancers work, but they do still play in sessions.

Phibsboro is a dump, don't expect to find any trad sessions there. The Cobblestone isn't really traditional pub either. You can go to any number of paid concerts that are on any night of the week.

To be honest, I've encountered so many people who come here to work from different countries, and have complained about being here. Do you think we're happy with that? If you don't like it, don't stay. We could do with the housing.

gozunda

machaseh wrote: »

I am not the one who brought up colonialism of the Dutch, am I now? For some reason, every time I say something about Ireland, people start whinging about Dutch colonialism which is 100% irrelevant to the topic of this thread. We never colonized Ireland now did we?

I would never defend wrongdoings of Dutch people, but if people say historically incorrect facts then what do you expect me to do, be silent about it? The fact of the matter is that we respected the local customs, religions and languages, even if aside from that we did violate the human rights of the local population just like any other major power in history has done, and no not only Europeans let alone only the Dutch.

Lol. Is that so? Ever hear of this lad?

William III (Dutch: Willem; 4 November 1650 – 8 March 1702),also widely known as William of Orange, was sovereign Prince of Orange from birth, Stadtholder of Holland, Zeeland, Utrecht, Guelders and Overijssel in the Dutch Republic from the 1670s and King of England, Ireland and Scotland from 1689 until his death, co-reigning with his wife, Queen Mary II

So get out of that! Yer man certainly did not have any respect for "the local customs, religions and languages".

And dont come here riding that big horse. King Billy already tried that one until it was discovered that the real bollix was actually not underneath the horse at all ...

Edit: swarlb you bet me to it

Seamai

There are cultural differences but I just think you are mixing with the wrong people, I work with some very superficial people who sometimes can frustrate me but I have friends of great depth, insight and intellect whom I value dearly. Up to 20 years ago I'd have said that the Irish were amongst the least materialistic in Europe but now we've caught up with everyone. I sometime think that there are people from places like the Netherlands and Germany in particular (back in the 70's quite a few came here) with romantic ideas about living here and are a bit disappointed to discover that it's not the sleepy rural backwater that they were dreaming of.

My partner grew up in the U.S and moved here 20 years ago (though his mother's family were Irish, he actually grew up with a Polish/Italian family, long story), he never harboured any romantic ideas about returning to the "old sod". From time to time we visit his family, I have to say I hate it there (not his family) just the whole culture there and way of life, he says he'd never go back there to live, the life he has here and the friends he's made here could never be replaced. Like I said above I think you might be mixing with the wrong people.

rdwight

KaneToad wrote: »

Literally everyone in the country was asked if they can speak Irish. (Census 2016)

1.77m people responded saying that they could. Those are indisputable facts.

I wasn't doubting that you were accurately reporting a census figure. I am doubtful about whether people ticking the box in the census has anything useful to tell us about their language skills.

Seamai

SozBbz wrote: »

Insular? Backward? Did you not notice the 2 referendums in the last few years on same sex marriage and legalising safe abortion? Quite literally our population was shown to care about the rights of others and voted to allow more freedoms for all.

What is there to be proud of? Speak for yourself. You sound like nothing but a neg.

Internalised hatred is a terrible thing.

I'd say for a small island nation we are anything but insular, our nearest neighbours however for all their imperial past and multiculturalism are very insular.

machaseh

antix80 wrote: »

I think your definition of "superficial" is off.. you mean we're not cultured enough for you. You just need to hang out in different circles really.

Personally, I had the misfortune of meeting a dutch girl while in a fairly multicultural house share of about 8 people. We called her "Hitler" because she was so bossy and regimented.. and she was obsessed with meals, often having her friends over for MEALS instead of drinks! We were a group composed of Italian, Polish, Irish and a few other nationalities, and she was the only one obsessed with dragging everyone together for a meal followed by herbal tea. Whatever floats your boat.

Well, as someone fairly uncouth I'll tell you some of the logic behind why I lack culture.

The night out you're describing is a night on the beer & nothing more. Which means, you're not going for a meal because it's too formal, too heavy, takes too long, too much organising, and you wouldn't be fit to drink a feed of easy-to-drink p*ss water (aka carlsberg, heineken, etc).

If you're interested in wining and dining, I suggest getting a partner, going out with other couples, or just saying to a friend that you'd like to check out a place and see if they'd like to join you (instead of pints).

As for politics. Sure, some people have no interest.. but some groups of friends avoid political discussions because the far-leftist of the group, insufferable enough without alcohol, will try to bring everything down with their doom and gloom about how the poor can't pay and that the earth is literally burning because of global warming. We hear enough of that in the media without talking about it in the pub. And then you have the more right-leaning folk who prefer to make sweeping statements for the banter, and you're not going to get too far talking about European institutions with people like that who just want to bash political correctness.

The Irish Language.. you know you're in the Pale, right? No one cares about the Irish language except for the culchies and primary school teachers.

And as for lack of interest in culture, such as the arts and music.. some people are obsessed with arts and music, for many their interest stops at pop music and netflix. I do think Irish people are pretty bad for not going to museums or showing interest in arts and culture. I guess it's inherited from parents who weren't into it, and schools that suck any joy out of those areas or focus too much on Irish mythology, Irish History and god-damn boring Irish poetry throughout the primary and second-level education system.

You basically just confirmed literally all of the points in my OP there. Wow. For example the Dutch girl in that house share sounds lovely, she wants to organize nice meals and keep the place clean and tidy. How could you not like that ?!

Sadly, this 'different circles' you are talking about often involves not many Irish people but mostly expats. And I find that a shame, because I really DO want to integrate more in the society of this country. I do not want to be stuck in my 'expat bubble'. Because I always criticize people in the Netherlands who stay in their expat bubble; of course in the Netherlands we DO have our own language and I also find many expats not bothering to learn it. Now you cannot possibly blame me for not having irish if the irish don't speak it anyway, at least I have proper English.

machaseh

dancingqueen wrote: »

You are not from here, you have not grown up with it, you do NOT know what you are talking about. You come on here and insult our country, our languages, our history, everything an then you say you'd like it more if you knew where there was more trad music. It's everywhere. Temple Bar is a tourist attraction and in fairness, has given a lot of our very talented singers, musicians and dancers work, but they do still play in sessions.

Phibsboro is a dump, don't expect to find any trad sessions there. The Cobblestone isn't really traditional pub either. You can go to any number of paid concerts that are on any night of the week.

To be honest, I've encountered so many people who come here to work from different countries, and have complained about being here. Do you think we're happy with that? If you don't like it, don't stay. We could do with the housing.

You are saying that there is a wide variety of proper trad in dublin, yet when I ask you where it is you won't give a straight answer and you continue with racist bollix of that I should just leave the country (even though I'm probably paying more taxes than you are).

Ah, the superficiality of the Irish...