Teachers opinion on primary start age?

hometruths

Apologies for gate crashing the teachers forum, but am looking for teachers opinions on best age to start primary school.

Our daughter was born March 2016, so will be 4.5 this September and we are currently trying to decide whether to start her in 2020 at 4.5 or 2021 at 5.5. My preference in 2020, OHs is 2021 but we both see the merit in the other's arguments! Difficult decision!

Daughter current in a local playschool which she loves, but we both suspect she will outgrow that quite quickly over another year.

We have asked playschool principal who said "For sure, she will manage the transition no problem, but personally I think it is always better to wait as kids socialise better a year later."

Neither my OH or I have any concerns that she will be unable to cope with step up in learning.

My OH thinks that most people wait until the child is a little older because they have an extra year's social skills under their belt, and we should do the same. i.e it will just be easier for her to fit in, and she will be happier.

My view is that her social skills will be fine, and she will adapt no problem, and I think the structure of primary school and more disciplined learning environment will be beneficial to her now behaviourally.

i.e I am worried if she outgrows the playschool and starts getting bored she will start acting up etc and being bratty. Currently whilst wilful she is no more or less badly or well behaved than your average 4 year old!

I know these things vary wildly on the individual child but just wondered did any primary teachers out there have some opinion on the general idea of starting a child a little below the average vs a little above it?!

Many thanks!

Postgrad10

schmittel wrote: »

Apologies for gate crashing the teachers forum, but am looking for teachers opinions on best age to start primary school.

Our daughter was born March 2016, so will be 4.5 this September and we are currently trying to decide whether to start her in 2020 at 4.5 or 2021 at 5.5. My preference in 2020, OHs is 2021 but we both see the merit in the other's arguments! Difficult decision!

Daughter current in a local playschool which she loves, but we both suspect she will outgrow that quite quickly over another year.

We have asked playschool principal who said "For sure, she will manage the transition no problem, but personally I think it is always better to wait as kids socialise better a year later."

Neither my OH or I have any concerns that she will be unable to cope with step up in learning.

My OH thinks that most people wait until the child is a little older because they have an extra year's social skills under their belt, and we should do the same. i.e it will just be easier for her to fit in, and she will be happier.

My view is that her social skills will be fine, and she will adapt no problem, and I think the structure of primary school and more disciplined learning environment will be beneficial to her now behaviourally.

i.e I am worried if she outgrows the playschool and starts getting bored she will start acting up etc and being bratty. Currently whilst wilful she is no more or less badly or well behaved than your average 4 year old!

I know these things vary wildly on the individual child but just wondered did any primary teachers out there have some opinion on the general idea of starting a child a little below the average vs a little above it?!

Many thanks!

Is it playschool or preschool your daughter was in? Playschool tends to be less structured. Preschool or Montessori can of great benefit to do before starting school. She doesn’t need to go to to the same place if you are fearful of her being bored.

hometruths

Postgrad10 wrote: »

Is it playschool or preschool your daughter was in? Playschool tends to be less structured. Preschool or Montessori can of great benefit to do before starting school. She doesn’t need to go to to the same place if you are fearful of her being bored.

Thanks. It's a playschool. We have discussed moving her to a preschool/montessori in Sept 2020, then starting school in 2021.

My view on this is that I think it might be counterproductive to move her twice, and my OH largely agrees.

Redser87

Definitely wait the year. With the free two years now, lots of children are starting at 5y4m onwards who would previously have been a young 4. If you're keeping her in the play school, maybe you could send in little books for her sounds or colouring books to help with pencil grip.

byhookorbycrook

Primary teacher here .Down the years , in various different school settings, I’ve seen very young infants getting a poor start to formal schooling , which can have big social and emotional implications that will impact on their learning, self esteem and progress . The notion of “ keeping a child back” is very much frowned upon by the DES -and in any case , it’s been proved world wide as damaging to the child .
My thoughts are that she may be fine / she may not , so why take the chance .

Leaving aside that each child is different , I would say to wait . It’s been tossed around that Transition Year will be abolished , so that could make her very young trying to do her Leaving / Going To college .

Postgrad10

I’d go with a really good Montessori or Preschool then. She’ll attain so many skills for school. You won’t regret it.

https://amshq.org/Families/Why-Choose-Montessori

Treppen

I've 1 that went at 4.5 and they're getting on fine academic and social wise, for a teacher I'm not particularly pushy on academic either.

I've another one who went at 5 and he's among the eldest in his class, the rest seem a bit babyish compared to where he's at, so I think he's plenty old.
5.5 for starting Junior infants seems fairly old to me. But there are a few in my first child's class who did start at this age (they all seem to get on fine from what I can tell collecting them and playdates etc.)

I have another colleague who started their child at 5+ (cos of friends and relatives who would be starting the same time). She said she made a point of not prepping them with maths or English as she didn't want them bored in class!!

Of course folk will say "I went to school at X and turned out fine". So it mightn't amount to a hill of beans once they're finished secondary.

Any of the students I had who were 19 in 6th year I found them very 'weathered and weary' and ready to move on.

hometruths

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Primary teacher here .Down the years , in various different school settings, I’ve seen very young infants getting a poor start to formal schooling , which can have big social and emotional implications that will impact on their learning, self esteem and progress . The notion of “ keeping a child back” is very much frowned upon by the DES -and in any case , it’s been proved world wide as damaging to the child .
My thoughts are that she may be fine / she may not , so why take the chance .

Leaving aside that each child is different , I would say to wait . It’s been tossed around that Transition Year will be abolished , so that could make her very young trying to do her Leaving / Going To college .

Treppen wrote: »

I've 1 that went at 4.5 and they're getting on fine academic and social wise, for a teacher I'm not particularly pushy on academic either.

I've another one who went at 5 and he's among the eldest in his class, the rest seem a bit babyish compared to where he's at, so I think he's plenty old.
5.5 for starting Junior infants seems fairly old to me. But there are a few in my first child's class who did start at this age (they all seem to get on fine from what I can tell collecting them and playdates etc.)

I have another colleague who started their child at 5+ (cos of friends and relatives who would be starting the same time). She said she made a point of not prepping them with maths or English as she didn't want them bored in class!!

Of course folk will say "I went to school at X and turned out fine". So it mightn't amount to a hill of beans once they're finished secondary.

Any of the students I had who were 19 in 6th year I found them very 'weathered and weary' and ready to move on.

Two excellent posts with exactly the kind of opinion I was seeking, thanks. And they both say the opposite, hence our dilemma!

Byhookorbycrook's post I think sum up my OH's concerns and Treppen's reflect's my own.

I did think about Transition Year, and I agree if it is abolished and she was 17 leaving school, that is too young, but I wholeheartedly agree with Treppen that I think 19 is too old to leave school at, which she'd be if she started at 5 and did transition year.

And I also think the 'babyish' comment is relevant. I think my daughter, based on the individual, will be better off mixing with kids who are a little older, than thinking the others are a bit babyish. To be perfectly frank I think she would try and boss them about, to put it politely!

Redser makes a good point that I hadn't considered - two free ecce years presumably make the average age older now compared to say ten years ago, as most parents try to get their money's worth from the ecce scheme?

Treppen, how long ago did your kids start school?

Byhook, when you say you've seen very young infants get a poor start, would you class 4.5 as very young?

Millem

My son is in junior infants. As of today out of 25 in the class only 3 kids are 4 and 22 kids are 5.
Don’t underestimate the yard.....it can be a battlefield. The older the better!!!

One thing to note is sports. All the sports my son plays use the 31st Dec when divided them....gaa football, rugby, hurling, soccer. So your child would end up playing with the year below her if that makes sense? Maybe it’s not a big deal for you.

byhookorbycrook

I started school at 3 1/2 ( the school needed the numbers !!)
But back to the point , again , depending on the child , I think I’d prefer them to be 5 , as it seems that most children will be very close to 5 or older starting and she may disadvantaged that way .
For sports’ competitions, playing with a school team , many of the competitions are on class rather than age .I know of a few very sporty families who actually aimed to give birth in early Jan to give them an advantage over children born late in the year!


In secondary , if her peers are 19 and she’s not , they will be able to socialise in places she can’t. This is more of an issue in 3rd level , though .

hometruths

Millem wrote: »

My son is in junior infants. As of today out of 25 in the class only 3 kids are 4 and 22 kids are 5.
Don’t underestimate the yard.....it can be a battlefield. The older the better!!!

One thing to note is sports. All the sports my son plays use the 31st Dec when divided them....gaa football, rugby, hurling, soccer. So your child would end up playing with the year below her if that makes sense? Maybe it’s not a big deal for you.

Good points thanks, that's quite a split. you say as of today, but any idea how many of those 5 year olds were 4 in September?

Millem

schmittel wrote: »

Good points thanks, that's quite a split. you say as of today, but any idea how many of those 5 year olds were 4 in September?

Would need to look at the list but from memory based on parties (the kids have joint ones and whole class invited) 2 were 5 in sept, 2 were 5 in Oct, 1 in nov, 1 dec and
3 left are still 4.
6 birthdays have started 1 this month 1 in feb.

Purple Mountain

Hello.

As someone who is born in March also and started school aged 4, I would advocate waiting until 5 to start her.
I was very young starting secondary school and doing my leaving cert and I always felt that if I had had the extra year, I would have been more street wise.
I was quite naive as a 12 year old going into a big secondary school where we were in the midst of 18 year olds.
Also, I felt wrecked in first year, the jump in the length of the day and the hours of homework really shattered me.

Treppen

I can't really see them abolishing a year (transition year).

BonsaiKitten

Teacher here. I think your OH is right (and most teachers I know will say the same). It's better to wait a year. Things like being able to sit and listen to a story, share, listen to and follow directions mean more than academics for prospective JI entrants.

Digs

Just my personal experience OP (I’m a primary teacher also) but I would have shared your opinion initially. We sent our eldest at 4.5 (April baby). Thought she was well able, very chatty and outgoing, very social child. She was a full year younger then some in the class and it really showed. She always seemed to be on the back foot with some of them. Especially the girls. A year in and I really regretted our decision and argued with myself about it.

We decided to move her school for a few reasons (also regret waiting to do that!) and as a result had an opportunity to hold her back, we couldn’t/wouldn’t have done it had she stayed put. So she’s redoing senior infants. Best decision we have ever made, she is so much more confident and really thriving. That’s mainly down to the new school and better environment but also redoing senior infants. She has gone from the youngest in the class to the 3rd eldest. She is more at ease in herself and seems to be able to assert herself more. She is well able academically and is naturally well ahead of her peers having done the year already but she isn’t suffering because of it. Our other two daughters will go at 5 without question. I suppose the eldest has the unfortunate role of guinea pig sometimes!

Also fwiw. Eldest is in a Gaelscoil, middle is in the naionra attached. She will do the two years ECCE but a lot from the school send theirs to a nearby English Montessori for one year before moving to the naionra for the second year to change things up a bit. I personally wouldn’t be concerned about giving her a second year elsewhere, they can adapt easily at that age.

hometruths

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Teacher here. I think your OH is right (and most teachers I know will say the same). It's better to wait a year. Things like being able to sit and listen to a story, share, listen to and follow directions mean more than academics for prospective JI entrants.

She does all that now quite happily, but that's quite a helpful point on what skills are most important. Are there others that stand out?

She's our first so we have no real idea!

byhookorbycrook

Turn taking , sustained listening ( in an age appropriate manner )being able to open her lunch and drink unaided , can tie her own coat and shoes, able to hold her own in the school yard.
The ones below are important - too many children arrive to infants each year with these being done incorrectly, so best to leave it until school.
However, if you have taught her a pencil grip , be sure it is the correct one . Likewise , if she is writing , that she forms the letters correctly

Peatys

Make sure the school doesn't decide for you. Holy family swords have a 5 by October break off point.

Random sample

From a secondary teachers perspective, I’d say wait. I can tell which first years are not 13 yet, and their mammies were all telling me at their parent teacher meeting how they’re only 12 and we’re expecting too much of them....

I would also say, I’d prefer my 16 year old daughter to be friends with other 16 year olds than with 17 year olds. The six months or a year doesn’t always make a difference, but at some stages it makes a huge difference.

As for readiness, ability to sit still for extended periods, listening, following instructions, independently getting dressed and fixing clothes/coats, opening lunchboxes and bags would be the things I would look out for.

I have often come across parents who regret sending a child young, but I rarely come across one who regrets sending a child over 5.

hometruths

Digs wrote: »

Just my personal experience OP (I’m a primary teacher also) but I would have shared your opinion initially. We sent our eldest at 4.5 (April baby). Thought she was well able, very chatty and outgoing, very social child. She was a full year younger then some in the class and it really showed. She always seemed to be on the back foot with some of them. Especially the girls. A year in and I really regretted our decision and argued with myself about it.

We decided to move her school for a few reasons (also regret waiting to do that!) and as a result had an opportunity to hold her back, we couldn’t/wouldn’t have done it had she stayed put. So she’s redoing senior infants. Best decision we have ever made, she is so much more confident and really thriving. That’s mainly down to the new school and better environment but also redoing senior infants. She has gone from the youngest in the class to the 3rd eldest. She is more at ease in herself and seems to be able to assert herself more. She is well able academically and is naturally well ahead of her peers having done the year already but she isn’t suffering because of it. Our other two daughters will go at 5 without question. I suppose the eldest has the unfortunate role of guinea pig sometimes!

Also fwiw. Eldest is in a Gaelscoil, middle is in the naionra attached. She will do the two years ECCE but a lot from the school send theirs to a nearby English Montessori for one year before moving to the naionra for the second year to change things up a bit. I personally wouldn’t be concerned about giving her a second year elsewhere, they can adapt easily at that age.

That's very helpful thanks. Conversely one of the reason's I'm tempted, is that she has no problem asserting herself! i.e I'd worry about her being too assertive if she was one of the eldest!

hometruths

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Turn taking , sustained listening ( in an age appropriate manner )being able to open her lunch and drink unaided , can tie her own coat and shoes, able to hold her own in the school yard.
The ones below are important - too many children arrive to infants each year with these being done incorrectly, so best to leave it until school.
However, if you have taught her a pencil grip , be sure it is the correct one . Likewise , if she is writing , that she forms the letters correctly

Shes getting to grips with her coat and shoes now, the rest she is pretty good at I would say (except pencil and writing, have not gone there yet beyond random scribbling)

hometruths

Random sample wrote: »

From a secondary teachers perspective, I’d say wait. I can tell which first years are not 13 yet, and their mammies were all telling me at their parent teacher meeting how they’re only 12 and we’re expecting too much of them....

I would also say, I’d prefer my 16 year old daughter to be friends with other 16 year olds than with 17 year olds. The six months or a year doesn’t always make a difference, but at some stages it makes a huge difference.

As for readiness, ability to sit still for extended periods, listening, following instructions, independently getting dressed and fixing clothes/coats, opening lunchboxes and bags would be the things I would look out for.

I have often come across parents who regret sending a child young, but I rarely come across one who regrets sending a child over 5.

This is my OHs view and am beginning to realise that it is widely shared.

Digs

schmittel wrote: »

That's very helpful thanks. Conversely one of the reason's I'm tempted, is that she has no problem asserting herself! i.e I'd worry about her being too assertive if she was one of the eldest!

No problem! I should also add I retrained as a teacher so she had gone to school before I got into the classroom myself. I didn’t know then what I’ve learned since.

We would have said the same about our daughter, we really got a bit of a shock when we realised she was struggling a bit, her confidence got an awful knock. That was also down to the class she ended up in initially. It had an awful lot of strong characters and she just couldn’t deal properly with them (emotionally). I wonder now had we sent her to this school initially at 4.5 would she have had the same problem? It’s hard to know.

Every child is different though, totally understand your struggle! Just look at the cut off the school has in place, if it is March/April etc just bare in mind she will be one of the youngest. The difference a year makes at that age can be huge in dealing with playground politics. Now with the two years ECCE people are sending their children older.

Best of luck in your decision! We can only do our best with this stuff.

hometruths

Digs wrote: »

No problem! I should also add I retrained as a teacher so she had gone to school before I got into the classroom myself. I didn’t know then what I’ve learned since.

We would have said the same about our daughter, we really got a bit of a shock when we realised she was struggling a bit, her confidence got an awful knock. That was also down to the class she ended up in initially. It had an awful lot of strong characters and she just couldn’t deal properly with them (emotionally). I wonder now had we sent her to this school initially at 4.5 would she have had the same problem? It’s hard to know.

Every child is different though, totally understand your struggle! Just look at the cut off the school has in place, if it is March/April etc just bare in mind she will be one of the youngest. The difference a year makes at that age can be huge in dealing with playground politics. Now with the two years ECCE people are sending their children older.

Best of luck in your decision! We can only do our best with this stuff.

The cut off is May 31st, which works both ways - i.e she'll either be noticeably younger than the average or noticeable older.

Her playschool leader's immediate reaction when we asked her, was "Don't worry, she'll definitely cope, she's a very strong character"

Strong character is endearing at the minute. I don't want her to be bossy though if she gets used to being the eldest! That's my worry!

pwurple

As a parent, it really depends on the school and the other children to some extent. For example, we sent our March born children both at age 4.5, but they were in very small classes, and were by no means the youngest or smallest in either of them. Their friends have birthdays in February, April & May. So march was middle of the ages really. There is one child who started when almost 6 in that same class, and he is a fish out of water, the others don't play much with him, and he keeps wandering into the older classes. It may indeed catch up with us in secondary school, but they will go to the same school as their friends, so will see. So far, up to 4th class primary is fine.

Digs

schmittel wrote: »

The cut off is May 31st, which works both ways - i.e she'll either be noticeably younger than the average or noticeable older.

Her playschool leader's immediate reaction when we asked her, was "Don't worry, she'll definitely cope, she's a very strong character"

Strong character is endearing at the minute. I don't want her to be bossy though if she gets used to being the eldest! That's my worry!

I can see your concern alright! How is she will her peers at the moment? From the sound of things she can hold her own? Ours was assertive at home but turned out to be a total pleaser in school, trying to keep up with the older ones. A second year in ECCE might have figured that out for us.

Pwurple makes a good point. We had it in the opposite. As ours was the youngest she always hitched her cart up to the class below, that’s were she felt more comfortable in the playground. So a lot does depend on the pupils and median age in the class! Which is hard to know in advance of course.

ax530

I'm not a teacher a parent who made a similar decision
my daughter birthday April she started school 4.5 in second class now seems to be getting on fine. however children in her class are now turning 9 she is not yet 8.
At times I wonder if I should have waited another year but cant imagine her in with younger, she is tallest in class as is so would seem out of place with kids a year younger.
my second turned 5 in during summer so easy to know when to start school, does seem to be doing a bit better work wise however it may be down to personality type. both doing fine socially. Really felt the last few months of pre school were too repetitive for him but still enjoyed playing with friends.
I didnt like the idea of them still in school at 19

hometruths

Digs wrote: »

I can see your concern alright! How is she will her peers at the moment? From the sound of things she can hold her own? Ours was assertive at home but turned out to be a total pleaser in school, trying to keep up with the older ones. A second year in ECCE might have figured that out for us.

Pwurple makes a good point. We had it in the opposite. As ours was the youngest she always hitched her cart up to the class below, that’s were she felt more comfortable in the playground. So a lot does depend on the pupils and median age in the class! Which is hard to know in advance of course.

She is good with her peers, as in she gets on well with all.

Another comment her playschool leader mentioned is that she is noticeably happy to play either together with peers or doing something on her own, and quite often will just stand back from a group who is being rowdy/exclusive/dull whatever and go and do her own thing. Playschool mentioned this as a positive thinking she would not overly wind herself up about a group of kids in a big playground who were trying to exclude her etc.

My own observations are similiar plus I notice she interacts better with slightly older kids than younger kids - i.e she will defer to older kids but not let them boss her about, better with sharing, taking turns with them etc. Whereas she tends to think she should be the boss with younger kids and they should defer to her, stroppy about sharing etc.

She has younger sister at home - two years between them.

hometruths

pwurple wrote: »

As a parent, it really depends on the school and the other children to some extent. For example, we sent our March born children both at age 4.5, but they were in very small classes, and were by no means the youngest or smallest in either of them. Their friends have birthdays in February, April & May. So march was middle of the ages really. There is one child who started when almost 6 in that same class, and he is a fish out of water, the others don't play much with him, and he keeps wandering into the older classes. It may indeed catch up with us in secondary school, but they will go to the same school as their friends, so will see. So far, up to 4th class primary is fine.

Class size 20, which seems large to me but I guess is pretty average.

6 definitely seems too old!

jelly&icecream

I'm reading this with great interest! I'm in the same position with a March girl. Husband wants to definitely send her this Sept, I'm more hesitant, for no particular reason other than just airing on the side of caution.

We moved her from preschool to Montessori in the creche a few months ago and she's just come on so far after that jump. It seemed like she was copying the babyish behaviour of the other preschoolers to get more attention.

She's articulate, able to draw recognisable human figures with a pencil, toilet trained very easily at 2.5 etc. But at the same time is scared to sit on Santa's lap

It's sooo tough! Hubbie reckons we'd be holding her back.

Is that idea if transition year bring scraped serious? Hasn't heard of it. Any one know the source?