General Election TV debates

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Do you not see Francie that it is the SF party that is tainted? As they have difficulty honestly confronting the past due to playing two different games in two different jurisdictions.
Gerry Adams for example great politician, but I had no respect for him as he was not honest about his membership of the IRA. Also if he did not join surely he was letting down his comrades?

Martin McGuinness I had great respect for him he was honest about his past in the IRA and did not shy away from it. Voted for him in the 2011 presidential election.

Mary Lou is tarnished by not being able to distant herself from instances where SF and the IRA became entwined in the public consciousness thanks to Conor Murphy.
It will take a long time for SF to be able to do this and behave like a normal party while republicans kill innocent people like Paul Quinn, then refer to Quinn as a criminal.

I cannot think of a time where FG/FF tried to distance themselves from comments a party member made about murder.

In my view last nights debate has shown me that SF need to be more honest about these issues. In the way Martin McGuinness was, so they can win the floating voter over.

There never was a doubt in my mind that SF were a party emerging from a conflict/war situation. That is never an easy thing to do nor an easy thing to navigate. The early years of our own emergence as a state was littered with acrimonious allegations and accusations, so much so that it was decided to lock away testimonies until the people involved were dead.


But I have also long ago accepted that SF have put that behind them.
The allegations still come when they put their heads too far over the parapet, from people who couldn't give a hoot about the victims when SF are offering no threat electorally.
I think SF's surge shows that more and more people are also accepting this and recognising what FG and FF are doing when they exploit victims and their families.

Water John

Don't think any one in FG or FF were putting words into Conor Murphy's mouth, which MLMc then denied he said, but then was confronted with the evidence.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

But I have also long ago accepted that they have put that behind them.
The allegations still come when they put their heads too far over the parapet from people who couldn't give a hoot about the victims when SF are offering no threat electorally.
I think SF's surge shows that more and more people are also accepting this.

I think the truth is that there are many young working class voters who have no memory of the troubles who are voting for SF. As a result of the vacuum from the collapse of Labour in particular. It is not a question of people accepting it, I think it is a question of many not being old enough to remember it.

I think yesterday has proven that for the older demographic of voters SF are still a 'no go' in the way they treat thier issues from the past. Plus Mary Lou's lack of debating skills is not going to help.

car_radio19834

thequarefellow wrote: »

This is it. Renting in Ireland is a f***king disaster. Grand if your'e a student but otherwise? Having to share your home with strangers while working your b***ocks off and no sign of FF&FG doing anything meaningful to change the situation. Meanwhile those that don't work get A rated houses.

Spot on!

Even a dream of a house, I can't even dream of a new house, it would have to be 2nd hand.

Idbatterim

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think the truth is that there are many young working class voters who have no memory of the troubles who are voting for SF. As a result of the vacuum from the collapse of Labour in particular. It is not a question of people accepting it, I think it is a question of many not being old enough to remember it.

I think yesterday has proven that for the older demographic of voters SF are still a no go in the way they treat thier issues from the past. Plus Mary Lou's lack of debating skills is not going to help.

Maybe they don’t care when we know what we get with the axis of failure. If you were terrorized by rip off property in Dublin , you would feel different. I’m living in 2020, not 1970! Only ever looking fo the past has gotten us where ? Nearly a hundred years of ffg failure ?

marieholmfan

Idbatterim wrote: »

Maybe they don’t care when we know what we get with the axis of failure. If you were terrorized by rip off property in Dublin , you would feel different. I’m living in 2020, not 1970! Only ever looking fo the past has gotten us where ? Nearly a hundred years of ffg failure ?

Well the way Fianna Fail see it you should give all your money to a builder and pay 500,000 for a one bedroom apartment in Clonee and commute for 2 hours a day.
The way Fine Gael see it you should pay 5000 a month to share a toilet with 11 strangers, and die on a trolley if the unsanitary conditions make you sick.


If you complain they will literally crush you and if you have kids they can beg in the street.

Water John

Wow, seeing mega deflection here. MLMc bombed and that's the takeaway from the debate.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think the truth is that there are many young working class voters who have no memory of the troubles who are voting for SF. As a result of the vacuum from the collapse of Labour in particular. It is not a question of people accepting it, I think it is a question of many not being old enough to remember it.

I think yesterday has proven that for the older demographic of voters SF are still a 'no go' in the way they treat thier issues from the past. Plus Mary Lou's lack of debating skills is not going to help.

I predicted a week or more ago that a 'victim' would be found to be exploited. It was as clear as day it would happen as SF grew in the polls.

It has happened, the usual crowd are all over it, with the same old same old comment.

It remains to be seen what effect it will have. I have no doubt it will have an effect. But it will be evident that it is a diminishing effect too.

I, for one, am happy with how this election has gone in terms of my goal...breaking the cosy powerswap/duopoly of the last 100 years.

gormdubhgorm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Maybe they don’t care when we know what we get with the axis of failure. If you were terrorized by rip off property in Dublin , you would feel different. I’m living in 2020, not 1970! Only ever looking fo the past has gotten us where ? Nearly a hundred years of ffg failure ?

How is it it a hundred years of FF/FG failure exactly they keep getting elected they must be doing something right?

They came out from a civil war, created a constitution joined the EU, deceased Independence on the UK, improved our infrastructure, attracted foreign investment, liberalised society etc.

--

Also the problem with rip of property in dublin is that Irish people still want gardens and houses (in the DNA). If Ireland built upwards like many other cities it would solve a lot of the problem

BarryD2

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There never was a doubt in my mind that SF were a party emerging from a conflict/war situation. That is never an easy thing to do nor an easy thing to navigate. The early years of our own emergence as a state was littered with acrimonious allegations and accusations, so much so that it was decided to lock away testimonies until the people involved were dead.

You've identified the problem exactly there Francie, that process took many years and will take another generation at least for SF, assuming the north stays stable.

Mary Lou is wont to throw around the FF/FG moniker and is quite right to do so as there's feck all difference between them, but the other moniker that readily springs to mind in many southern voters is SF/IRA... and many would say there is/ was feck all difference there too.

To get away from this, FF & FG need to merge and SF needs to wait and let time heal.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I predicted a week or more ago that a 'victim' would be found to be exploited. It was as clear as day it would happen as SF grew in the polls.

It has happened, the usual crowd are all over it, with the same old same old comment.

It remains to be seen what effect it will have. I have no doubt it will have an effect. But it will be evident that it is a diminishing effect too.

I, for one, am happy with how this election has gone in terms of my goal...breaking the cosy powerswap/duopoly of the last 100 years.

So you honestly think SF will be in government after the election?

Idbatterim

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

How is it it a hundred years of FF/FG failure exactly they keep getting elected they must be doing something right?

They came out from a civil war, created a constitution joined the EU, deceased Independence on the UK, improved our infrastructure, attracted foreign investment, liberalised society etc.

--

Also the problem with rip of property in dublin is that Irish people still want gardens and houses (in the DNA). If Ireland built upwards like many other cities it would solve a lot of the problem

Its 2020 now. We have boil notices , overflowing sewage into Dublin bay , much untreated sewage goes into All of our waters. No new rail line other than the mickey Mouse luas , No new rail line laid in over hundred years. Sorry, what infrastructure? Other than the worlds most expensive hospital ? I have to give them that !

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

How is it it a hundred years of FF/FG failure exactly they keep getting elected they must be doing something right?

They came out from a civil war, created a constitution joined the EU, deceased Independence on the UK, improved our infrastructure, attracted foreign investment, liberalised society etc.

--

Also the problem with rip of property in dublin is that Irish people still want gardens and houses (in the DNA). If Ireland built upwards like many other cities it would solve a lot of the problem

Between them they have now just over 40% of the vote.

In order to preserve that for all the juice that is left in it, they are conspiring to keep a challenger at bay. They won't merge, even though they are almost identical and they won't go into coalition because that makes the boogeymen and women the official opposition.

It's that simple. They are playing the electorate to keep the powerswap going.

marieholmfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Between them they have now just over 40% of the vote.

In order to preserve that for all the juice that is left in it, they are conspiring to keep a challenger at bay. They won't merge, even though they are almost identical and they won't go into coalition because that makes the boogeymen and women the official opposition.

It's that simple. They are playing the electorate to keep the powerswap going.

It's controlled opposition.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So you honestly think SF will be in government after the election?

I don't know what will happen.

I have theories I have expressed here that could see them in government.

But theories aside, I am sure of one thing, my vote will go towards reducing the power of FF and FG to cling on, a bit more.

thequarefellow

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

How is it it a hundred years of FF/FG failure exactly they keep getting elected they must be doing something right?

They came out from a civil war, created a constitution joined the EU, deceased Independence on the UK, improved our infrastructure, attracted foreign investment, liberalised society etc.

--

Also the problem with rip of property in dublin is that Irish people still want gardens and houses (in the DNA). If Ireland built upwards like many other cities it would solve a lot of the problem

But they haven't done so. There are countless examples of attractive high rise living all over Europe. I've lived in some. Just f***ing do it! Go abroad, look at good examples of same, with the necessary infrastructure, and do it! But they haven't.
I would argue that people don't necessarily want gardens judging by the amount of neglected gardens that I see everywhere. Kids don't even play in gardens anymore. And social housing should be a case of take it or leave it anyway.

Necro

Necro wrote: »

I just don't like him on a personal level but I guess if he helped you fair enough.




Because they'd be slaughtered like the green and Labour candidates will be in the polls

People just don't vote outside the big 3 (or Harkin for whatever reason)

What do you think of Renua?

I know people go on about them being pro life but abortion legislation is now set in stone so they can appeal to those who are pro life in the knowledge that it won’t change anything.

I like where they say politicians AND public servants should be held accountable for their actions and waste. Any other candidate just says they want to invest in health and that’s not helping the health crisis imo.

Idbatterim

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FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know what will happen.

I have theories I have expressed here that could see them in government.

But theories aside, I am sure of one thing, my vote will go towards reducing the power of FF and FG to cling on, a bit more.

I don’t think sf will be part of government this time. However , they will take seats from ffg. And we are one more term of failure away from the chuckle brothers possibly having mlmd as Taoiseach !

Idbatterim

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

What do you think of Renua?

I know people go on about them being pro life but abortion legislation is now set in stone so they can appeal to those who are pro life in the knowledge that it won’t change anything.

I like where they say politicians AND public servants should be held accountable for their actions and waste. Any other candidate just says they want to invest in health and that’s not helping the health crisis imo.

Yeah I’ll vote Remus also , don’t think they’ll win seats though. A good part squandered when there are big issues effecting is every day on a single divisive issue that was never going to be an ongoing saga , it’s done and dusted like you say and that was likely always the more likely outcome

marieholmfan

thequarefellow wrote: »

But they haven't done so. There are countless examples of attractive high rise living all over Europe. I've lived in some. Just f***ing do it! Go abroad, look at good examples of same, with the necessary infrastructure, and do it! But they haven't.
I would argue that people don't necessarily want gardens judging by the amount of neglected gardens that I see everywhere. Kids don't even play in gardens anymore. And social housing should be a case of take it or leave it anyway.

The problems attributed to high rise flats exist in Summerhill in Dublin and Moyross in Limerick and Crumlin and Neilstown and Fettercairn. Essentially they are policing problems.


It is a statement of fact that the Gardai did far more to stop Communities Concerned About Drugs then they ever did or have done to stop drug dealing.


I wonder why.

Necro

Idbatterim wrote:

I don’t think sf will be part of government this time. However , they will take seats from ffg. And we are one more term of failure away from the chuckle brothers possibly having mlmd as Taoiseach !

As Taoiseach? LOL

Sinn Fein would need 50 something seats minimally to be more than the junior party in government. They will gain MAYBE 5 seats in this election imho.

Which brings them to 28.

And you think that one term is going to see a massive swing of nearly 30 seats??? To Sinn Fein?

LOL

gormdubhgorm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Its 2020 now. We have boil notices , overflowing sewage into Dublin bay , much untreated sewage goes into All of our waters. No new rail line other than the mickey Mouse luas , No new rail line laid in over hundred years. Sorry, what infrastructure? Other than the worlds most expensive hospital ? I have to give them that !

And you know why we have boil notices in 2020 now because of the protests from the fringe left on water charges. The luas works perfectly fine and is a great system to get around the place. More eco friendly as well.

As regards infrastructure - the M17 M8, and M20 came out of thin air did they?

realdanbreen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know what will happen.

I have theories I have expressed here that could see them in government.

But theories aside, I am sure of one thing, my vote will go towards reducing the power of FF and FG to cling on, a bit more.

And you said earlier that you hadn't voted SF in the past. Why was that Francie?

thequarefellow

If FF form a government it will be with a minor party and independents. They will be in power for the inevitable downturn in the economy that is coming. (US economy has been booming for a record amount of time, it's due a downturn and when the US farts, Ireland shudders. Couple that with Brexit) The recession will be blamed on the minor party as always (Greens, PD's, Labour etc.) and FF will remain a political force in this country.
Sf wont get into power this time so they will dodge the blame also.

FrancieBrady

realdanbreen wrote: »

And you said earlier that you hadn't voted SF in the past. Why was that Francie?

I have a reason for not voting for the candidate here.

I have always given them a vote in local elections (for the massive work their local reps do) and in the presidential election when MMcG ran. I din't vote for them in the most recent one.

Exemplary behaviour for a 'bot' in the pay of SF and up all night defending them, I am sure you'll agree. :rolleyes:

piplip87

Sir Oxman wrote: »

..And that's where you fall down.

It's not though. It's what I see on my social media feeds. The ones shouting loudest on social media are the ones who have benefitted from government policy over the last few years....

They are the ones who lost 5 or 6 quid a week during the recession, the ones who are in a social house with medical cards etc.... Permanent jobseekers....

They are the ones who should be thanking Leo for keeping Thier lifestyles in check while the ordinary worker was screwed.

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

And you know why we have boil notices in 2020 now because of the protests from the fringe left on water charges. The luas works perfectly fine and is a great system to get around the place. More eco friendly as well.

As regards infrastructure - the M17 M8, and M20 came out of thin air did they?

I have no problem paying for water but I did have a serious issue with how it was set up and the jobs for the boys element to it.

And don’t get me started on quangos. There’s hundreds of them and they all get funding even though many have the same remit as each other. How much money is wasted in that?

Sorry, I’m ranting.

thequarefellow

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I have no problem paying for water but I did have a serious issue with how it was set up and the jobs for the boys element to it.

Same here. No problem paying for clean water, on tap, to my kitchen. But the way Irish water was set up was infuriating, with the bonus culture creeping in there soon after set up. And the circus that followed! FG and FF's Brian Cowan deserve blame here.

Bottled water is 2000 times more expensive than tap water and yet Irish people were happy to spend €76m on the stuff in one year, with all the plastic pollution that that entails.

realdanbreen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have a reason for not voting for the candidate here.

I have always given them a vote in local elections (for the massive work their local reps do) and in the presidential election when MMcG ran. I din't vote for them in the most recent one.

Exemplary behaviour for a 'bot' in the pay of SF and up all night defending them, I am sure you'll agree. :rolleyes:

Exemplary Comrade, your day will come!

FrancieBrady

Necro wrote: »

As Taoiseach? LOL

Sinn Fein would need 50 something seats minimally to be more than the junior party in government. They will gain MAYBE 5 seats in this election imho.

Which brings them to 28.

And you think that one term is going to see a massive swing of nearly 30 seats??? To Sinn Fein?

LOL

25% of the vote with candidates at the same level as the two main parties would see a massive increase in seats. Push the percentage vote up and it isn't hard to see a landslide result to an election.

That's why SF will be very happy if FF and FG conspire to stay in government in one form or another.
It is also why FG will be very reticent to go in with FF too, leaving Martin in an equally interesting situation.

So interesting days ahead if SF maintain a high teen or low 20's showing on Saturday.