Half of Americans don’t know 6m Jews were killed in Holocaust (survey)

archer22

Fritzbox wrote: »

More to the point: how many of the 1.3 billion citizens of Communist China know?

Incidentally, I always though the normal given death toll as 50 million?

In my experience most of them know about it...and surprisingly a lot of them absolve Mao of guilt for it, saying he meant well but was led astray by officals lower down who fed him false reports on the 'success' of the great leap forward.

They give Mao credit for uniting China and making it save by developing the nuclear bomb at a time when China was under mortal threat from both the United States and the Soviet Union

squawker

Fritzbox wrote: »

Incidentally, I always though the normal given death toll as 50 million?

think that number included the Cultural Revolution among other campaigns

SaintLeibowitz

Fritzbox wrote: »

Who are "we"?

"We" were taught the Irish language for typically 13 years, but how many of "us" can speak it?

I presume the vast majority of posters here where raised and schooled in Ireland.

biko

OPs title "Half of Americans don’t know 6m Jews were killed in Holocaust"
makes it sound like 50% of Americans didn't know any Jews were killed, when in fact many just got the numbers wrong.

45% gave the correct answer
About 12% thought it was less
About 12% thought it was more
A whooping 30% didn't respond with a number.

Even scholars aren't sure but 6m seems likely so that's what we're going with

“Six million” is not, and was never intended to be, a precise accounting.

But the number, which has now been part of the public consciousness for more than 50 years, would never have continued to be cited if it did not mirror the scholarly tallies that have followed in the succeeding decades, and confirmed that rough figure.

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/holocaust-remembrance-day/6-million-where-is-the-figure-from-1.5319546

But hey, the clickbait worked as I responded

Dohnjoe

biko wrote: »

Even scholars aren't sure but 6m seems likely so that's what we're going with

They didn't put 5.5 or 6.2 on the survey

The options were less than 1 mm, 3 mm, 6 mm, 12 mm and don't know

Tony EH

The "6 million" is just a commonly accepted figure. But, even among historians dedicated to the study of the holocaust, it has been debated continuously. Gerald Reitlinger wrote that it was probably closer to 4 million. Raul Hilberg said that it was upwards toward 5 million. "6 million" is just shorthand.

In fact, IIRC, the 6 million figure was arrived at shortly after the end of the war, before any real statistical analysis was even done. So, it's always been a contested figure and the methodology of arriving at it has been subject to debate itself, which is a perfectly fine academic pastime. Such things should always be reviewed and revised. A revision (small r) of the historical record should always be occurring. But when there are nefarious movements of Revisionists (capital R), one needs to be careful of what one reads.

Odyssey 2005

Dohnjoe wrote: »

From multiple choice, only 45% gave the correct answer. Considering the amount of data and info we have at our fingertips, it's a little surprising to say the least

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/22/holocaust-survey-americans-pew-research-center

I'm surprised at your surprise, its America your talking about here !!

Dohnjoe

Tony EH wrote: »

The "6 million" is just a commonly accepted figure. But, even among historians dedicated to the study of the holocaust, it has been debated continuously. Gerald Reitlinger wrote that it was probably closer to 4 million. Raul Hilberg said that it was upwards toward 5 million. "6 million" is just shorthand.

In fact, IIRC, the 6 million figure was arrived at shortly after the end of the war, before any real statistical analysis was even done. So, it's always been a contested figure and the methodology of arriving at it has been subject to debate itself, which is a perfectly fine academic pastime. Such things should always be reviewed and revised. A revision (small r) of the historical record should always be occurring. But when there are nefarious movements of Revisionists (capital R), one needs to be careful of what one reads.

The 6 mm estimate after the war if based on the Soviets was blind luck (they initially vastly overestimated those killed in Auschwitz + access for researchers was limited for awhile). If based on German testimony, it's more difficult to say, one German planner/organisation (I forget his name) put it at 6 mm also.

In later decades, with far more research and field work, the consensus has generally settled on approx 5.5 to 6.2 mm

archer22

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The 6 mm estimate after the war if based on the Soviets was blind luck (they initially vastly overestimated those killed in Auschwitz + access for researchers was limited for awhile). If based on German testimony, it's more difficult to say, one German planner/organisation (I forget his name) put it at 6 mm also.

In later decades, with far more research and field work, the consensus has generally settled on approx 5.5 to 6.2 mm

Its all just figures thrown around willy nilly all over the place, there needs to be an investigation by some independent investigators who are fair, impartial and have no axe to grind.
Same with the Soviet stated losses in World war 2...I find hard to believe that all those deaths can be laid at the feet of the Germans...especially as the withdrawing Red Army had a scorched earth policy that must have resulted in a massive death toll amongst the local civilian populations of those areas.
Also Stalin's massive reprisals against Russians and other nationalities of the Soviet Union suspected of collaborating with the Germans must have resulted in a further massive death toll...we all know what happened to the Cossacks for example..must have been pretty much the same for the others.
I feel it was a case of lump all the deaths on the Germans after the war...same as they previously tried to lump the Katyn forest massacre of the Poles on them.

It's the victors who get to write the history.

biko

The number 6 million actually comes from Adolf Eichmann, organiser of the Holocaust,
So I'd say it's fairly accurate.

archer22

biko wrote: »

The number 6 million actually comes from Adolf Eichmann, organiser of the Holocaust,
So I'd say it's fairly accurate.

I think like Rudolf Hoess he would have said whatever they told him to say

Tony EH

archer22 wrote: »

Its all just figures thrown around willy nilly all over the place, there needs to be an investigation by some independent investigators who are fair, impartial and have no axe to grind.
Same with the Soviet stated losses in World war 2...I find hard to believe that all those deaths can be laid at the feet of the Germans...especially as the withdrawing Red Army had a scorched earth policy that must have resulted in a massive death toll amongst the local civilian populations of those areas.
Also Stalin's massive reprisals against Russians and other nationalities of the Soviet Union suspected of collaborating with the Germans must have resulted in a further massive death toll...we all know what happened to the Cossacks for example..must have been pretty much the same for the others.
I feel it was a case of lump all the deaths on the Germans after the war...same as they previously tried to lump the Katyn forest massacre of the Poles on them.

It's the victors who get to write the history.

You'd have to ask yourself, though, what difference this would make? Few people actually care about such minutia. These are events that took place over 75 years ago.

Outside of academic study, it just doesn't resonate with many folk.

Igotadose

Tony EH wrote: »

You'd have to ask yourself, though, what difference this would make? Few people actually care about such minutia. These are events that took place over 75 years ago.

Outside of academic study, it just doesn't resonate with many folk.

Plus the number is going to change as more and more sources become available. 30 years ago, academics were saying 5.1 million Jews, now 5.5 million is more or less agreed on based on post-Soviet information. The Germans were meticulous record keepers, so as more records show up, more will be known, but you can't expect there ever to be a final number that's 100% accurate.

archer22

Tony EH wrote: »

You'd have to ask yourself, though, what difference this would make? Few people actually care about such minutia. These are events that took place over 75 years ago.

Outside of academic study, it just doesn't resonate with many folk.

I don't know we get the Holocaust blasted into our ears everyday of the week...like it happened yesterday.

Tony EH

Igotadose wrote: »

Plus the number is going to change as more and more sources become available. 30 years ago, academics were saying 5.1 million Jews, now 5.5 million is more or less agreed on based on post-Soviet information. The Germans were meticulous record keepers, so as more records show up, more will be known, but you can't expect there ever to be a final number that's 100% accurate.

I wouldn't. Over my years of reading about war, one thing I have learned is that figures are bunkum, especially death tolls.

The major issue, however, is that they are often used politically and that kind of thing sticks in my throat. Plus it, far too often, overshadows history and events tend to get reduced down to a single number.

In short, I dislike the simplistic "numerical approach" to history and the victimisation olympics that usually follows.

SaintLeibowitz

archer22 wrote: »

I don't know we get the Holocaust blasted into our ears everyday of the week...like it happened yesterday.

Do you think, there may be a reason for that?.

Dohnjoe

archer22 wrote: »

Its all just figures thrown around willy nilly all over the place, there needs to be an investigation by some independent investigators who are fair, impartial and have no axe to grind.

This is complete nonsense and probably related to the neo-Nazi video you were suggesting earlier, so there's a certain irony with you suggesting impartiality

Thousands of researchers, academics, historians and researchers from all over the world have spent decades on the work.

archer22

Dohnjoe wrote: »

This is complete nonsense and probably related to the neo-Nazi video you were suggesting earlier, so there's a certain irony with you suggesting impartiality

Thousands of researchers, academics, historians and researchers from all over the world have spent decades on the work.

Care to provide a list of all those then and their backgrounds?

Strazdas

Igotadose wrote: »

Plus the number is going to change as more and more sources become available. 30 years ago, academics were saying 5.1 million Jews, now 5.5 million is more or less agreed on based on post-Soviet information. The Germans were meticulous record keepers, so as more records show up, more will be known, but you can't expect there ever to be a final number that's 100% accurate.

Indeed : every time they carried out a mass shooting or a gassing, they recorded the precise number of people murdered that day. They weren't just killing people and not bothering keeping records of what they were doing......they were obsessed with statistics and records.

archer22

Strazdas wrote: »

Indeed : every time they carried out a mass shooting or a gassing, they recorded the precise number of people murdered that day. They weren't just killing people and not bothering keeping records of what they were doing......they were obsessed with statistics and records.

Any links to all those "statistics and records"?

Dohnjoe

archer22 wrote: »

Care to provide a list of all those then and their backgrounds?

No, it's up to yourself to educate yourself on history. I would recommend paying attention to the source, multiple sources where possible (history isn't infallible)

If you are interested in books on WW2, the Holocaust or specific camps, e.g. Auschwitz, either personal first-hand accounts or overviews I can recommend a few

Documentary wise, there are many, and several on Netflix now. "The Accountant of Auschwitz" is a recent one, more related to the trial, but it's interesting.

Strazdas

archer22 wrote: »

Care to provide a list of all those then and their backgrounds?

There been many hundreds (i.e. thousands) of books written on the Holocaust, in different languages, by historians and academics.

Hardly a surprise given how horrific an event it was and the sheer scale of it.

archer22

Dohnjoe wrote: »

No, it's up to yourself to educate yourself on history. I would recommend paying attention to the source, multiple sources where possible (history isn't infallible)

If you are interested in books on WW2, the Holocaust or specific camps, e.g. Auschwitz, either personal first-hand accounts or overviews I can recommend a few

Documentary wise, there are many, and several on Netflix now. "The Accountant of Auschwitz" is a recent one, more related to the trial, but it's interesting.

Ok so talking through your hole then!

Strazdas

archer22 wrote: »

Any links to all those "statistics and records"?

Yes, here you go :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen_reports

archer22

Strazdas wrote: »

There been many hundreds (i.e. thousands) of books written on the Holocaust, in different languages, by historians and academics.

Hardly a surprise given how horrific an event it was and the sheer scale of it.

You said there was German statistics and records....where are they?

archer22

Strazdas wrote: »

Yes, here you go :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen_reports

Wikipedia :rolleyes: are you having a laugh!

Strazdas

archer22 wrote: »

Wikipedia :rolleyes: are you having a laugh!

Which quotes the published tomes from where the statistics come :

Yitzhak Arad, with Shmuel Krakowski and Shmuel Spector (1989), The Einsatzgruppen reports: selections from the dispatches of the Nazi Death Squads’ campaign against the Jews July 1941-January 1943, New York, N.Y.: Holocaust Library. Edition details.

Ronald Headland (1992). Messages of Murder: A Study of the Reports of the Einsatzgruppen of the Security Police and the Security Service, 1941-1943. Tables of Killing Statistics: Einsatzgruppe A, B, C, and D. Fairleigh Dickinson Univ Press. pp. 27, 92, 98–101, 146

etc..

Manach

For those interested an excellent book that give the background to both the Soviet and Nazi industrial scale death camps during that period is Michael Burleigh's, Moral Combat. It provides the historical context to both and the ideological similaries of both regimes as they sought similar means to liquidate problem people/viewpoints. Thus the understanding of the whys is as equally importance as the raw numbers.

Dohnjoe

There was another recent survey which found that 66% of millennial's didn't know what Auschwitz, getting the feeling would have been a better survey to base the thread on instead of this one (death tolls seem to be distracting away from the key point)

archer22

Strazdas wrote: »

Which quotes the published tomes from where the statistics come :

Yitzhak Arad, with Shmuel Krakowski and Shmuel Spector (1989), The Einsatzgruppen reports: selections from the dispatches of the Nazi Death Squads’ campaign against the Jews July 1941-January 1943, New York, N.Y.: Holocaust Library. Edition details.

Ronald Headland (1992). Messages of Murder: A Study of the Reports of the Einsatzgruppen of the Security Police and the Security Service, 1941-1943. Tables of Killing Statistics: Einsatzgruppe A, B, C, and D. Fairleigh Dickinson Univ Press. pp. 27, 92, 98–101, 146

etc..

These are all Jewish names...where are all the GERMAN statistics and records?