Three children found dead mod note in post 1

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Deleted User wrote: »

That's because it's a woman. No other reason. If it was a man there would be no mention of mental health issues. There are very little details as yet but mental health issues are being pushed to the fore.

Don't get me wrong, that poor woman very likely did have mental health issues, how could you do something like that and not have mental health issues,

Ah, what? In the Hawe case, I heard a lot about possible mental illness. Speculation about a psychotic break and the like.

Akrasia

One of the problems of mental illness is that often the people suffering from this kind of breakdown are beloved family members. There are often warning signs and symptoms but the individuals themselves will usually resist treating themselves or accepting help from their family.

I say this as the son of a man who suffered with bipolar disorder for most of his adult life until it beat him in the end.

He did everything he was supposed to do and his family did everything we could do too. He was under the care of his go and specialist psychiatrists, he spent time in St Patrick’s in Dublin on multiple occasions, they gave him all the counseling they could, they tried him on all the medication that was available and nothing worked.

He was not in any way a violent person, one of the kindest and most thoughtful people you could ever have the pleasure to meet, but when he was depressed he was in constant physical pain, and when he was manic, he was sometimes suffering from grand delusions that he was 100% convinced were true.

People who lose their connection to reality can do things that they would never dream of doing in a million years were it not for the psychosis.
It’s tragic and horrific and terrifying and the worst thing is that there are no easy answers and the future is never predictable and when people make the wrong choices, they often do so with the best of intentions and often very limited options

Mad_maxx

Graces7 wrote: »

Thank you maxx. You are spot on.

They closed the big hospitals to save money. I only know the scene in the Uk but I imagine it is the same here?

They were invaluable safe places for people either at crisis times or just inadequate for life's demands. A place of safety, a haven and a respite for families.

The buzz term was " care in the community" ; only the community was not and is not equipped to "care" . It tied the hands of eg GPs.

And I agree totally that this lady was/is seriously mentally ill. The fact of the sheer horror of it must not detract from that awareness.
I know families with members whose mental health is a wreck and who cannot get help.
it is sitting on a time bomb for them.

The institutions were closed at the behest of liberals, many ended up homeless or in prison as they couldn't cope and their families could not cope with them, no money was saved, prison costs money

retro:electro

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Ah, what? In the Hawe case, I heard a lot about possible mental illness. Speculation about a psychotic break and the like.

Agreed. I was trying to find the initial thread on here from when the news broke but can’t see it. But yeah I do remember mental health issues being discussed a lot on that thread, which is fair enough. It’s natural to want to search for “answers” or look for the whys in unfathomable cases like this; but it’s disingenuous to say it’s not the case when the genders are reversed.

In fact I believe it was only last year when Clodagh’s family did a Prime Time special that the line was fully drawn under any speculation around mental illness. He was controlling and abusive and their tragic deaths were an act of domestic violence.

RIP to those beautiful children. Heartbreaking.

barneygumble99

He was not in any way a violent person, one of the kindest and most thoughtful people you could ever have the pleasure to meet, but when he was depressed he was in constant physical pain, and when he was manic, he was sometimes suffering from grand delusions that he was 100% convinced were true.

People who lose their connection to reality can do things that they would never dream of doing in a million years were it not for the psychosis.
It’s tragic and horrific and terrifying and the worst thing is that there are no easy answers and the future is never predictable and when people make the wrong choices, they often do so with the best of intentions and often very limited options[/quote]

Probably one of the best and most accurate descriptions of how a mental illness can affect someone. Thank you.

silver2020

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Doctors, unfortunately it's extremely difficult to section someone involuntarily in 2020

That unfortunately is too true. In addition, mental health is like cancer or even worse in terms of diagnosis - there are multiple "types" and it can take many months and sometimes over a year for the correct diagnosis and because there's no medical test, its literally trial and error in many cases to see what a person is responding to.

Furthermore, gardai aside from the very few with specific training are inept in dealing with mental illness and will sometime jump to totally wrong conclusions that will make things worse.

In relation to this case, I can say absolutely that the father is an absolute gent who adored his kids and would go out of his way to help you. One of the real good guys in life.

frillyleaf

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Doctors, unfortunately it's extremely difficult to section someone involuntarily in 2020

This has caused huge problems imo when trying to get someone into a mental health hospital even when they are a danger to themselves. Have experienced trying to section someone who was actively displaying suicidal behaviour and lost touch with reality not be admitted even though there was past admissions and gaurds involved. They didn’t get admitted in the end.

Absolute tragic case. My thoughts are with all of the family and anyone who knows them. I think it is hard for some people to imagine how dark and dangerous mental illnesses can become if they haven’t suffered from it or if they haven’t witnessed first hand the depth of severe mental illness first hand.

frillyleaf

Akrasia wrote: »

One of the problems of mental illness is that often the people suffering from this kind of breakdown are beloved family members. There are often warning signs and symptoms but the individuals themselves will usually resist treating themselves or accepting help from their family.

I say this as the son of a man who suffered with bipolar disorder for most of his adult life until it beat him in the end.

He did everything he was supposed to do and his family did everything we could do too. He was under the care of his go and specialist psychiatrists, he spent time in St Patrick’s in Dublin on multiple occasions, they gave him all the counseling they could, they tried him on all the medication that was available and nothing worked.

He was not in any way a violent person, one of the kindest and most thoughtful people you could ever have the pleasure to meet, but when he was depressed he was in constant physical pain, and when he was manic, he was sometimes suffering from grand delusions that he was 100% convinced were true.

People who lose their connection to reality can do things that they would never dream of doing in a million years were it not for the psychosis.
It’s tragic and horrific and terrifying and the worst thing is that there are no easy answers and the future is never predictable and when people make the wrong choices, they often do so with the best of intentions and often very limited options

Thank you for helping people understand how seriously mental illnesses can affect people. I’m sorry your dad suffered so much and sorry to hear he didn’t get well. I really think unless people experience it first hand or witness it, that it is hard for them to comprehend how severe it can be.

Aisling(",)

The photo of the children with the father is heartbreaking. I can't even imagine the devastation that the families are feeling.

The poor friends of those kids too. I don't know how a small child would even begin to process hearing that about a friend.

I hope it was a "peaceful" death well as much as it can be in these situations. Horrible horrible event.

silver2020

Akrasia wrote: »

One of the problems of mental illness is that often the people suffering from this kind of breakdown are beloved family members. There are often warning signs and symptoms but the individuals themselves will usually resist treating themselves or accepting help from their family.

I say this as the son of a man who suffered with bipolar disorder for most of his adult life until it beat him in the end.

He did everything he was supposed to do and his family did everything we could do too. He was under the care of his go and specialist psychiatrists, he spent time in St Patrick’s in Dublin on multiple occasions, they gave him all the counseling they could, they tried him on all the medication that was available and nothing worked.

He was not in any way a violent person, one of the kindest and most thoughtful people you could ever have the pleasure to meet, but when he was depressed he was in constant physical pain, and when he was manic, he was sometimes suffering from grand delusions that he was 100% convinced were true.

People who lose their connection to reality can do things that they would never dream of doing in a million years were it not for the psychosis.
It’s tragic and horrific and terrifying and the worst thing is that there are no easy answers and the future is never predictable and when people make the wrong choices, they often do so with the best of intentions and often very limited options

This post should be a sticky and anyone who wants to try and judge the mother or anyone else in relation to this tragedy should read this first before writing anything.

Only when you have personal experience of someone in the situation with chronic mental health problems can you start to understand.

Unfortunately I've had personal experience myself, but thankfully they accepted help and have come through the other side.

Asitis2019

This is such a awfully tragic case. Its beyond words... My heart goes out to the husband, grandparents, extended families, and friends. Its incomprehensible

Our society is breaking down, I'm sure of it.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

you don't think this lady had mental health issues??

I stated in my previous post that I believe anyone who does something like this has mental health issues.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

So she was behaving perfectly rationale during this period?

To all outward observers, yes. No one had any clue she was thinking like this.

ToddDameron

retro:electro wrote: »

Agreed. I was trying to find the initial thread on here from when the news broke but can’t see it. But yeah I do remember mental health issues being discussed a lot on that thread, which is fair enough. It’s natural to want to search for “answers” or look for the whys in unfathomable cases like this; but it’s disingenuous to say it’s not the case when the genders are reversed.

In fact I believe it was only last year when Clodagh’s family did a Prime Time special that the line was fully drawn under any speculation around mental illness. He was controlling and abusive and their tragic deaths were an act of domestic violence.

RIP to those beautiful children. Heartbreaking.

Hi,

I had to sign up because I feel your post is wide of the mark.



"A line being fully drawn under" the mental health status of Alan Hawe is not the case at all. It's still largely discussed in the psychiatry community but that line was effectively dropped out of both sympathy of the family and social media backlash that felt the conclusion that mental illness played a part in Hawe's crime was both excusing him of his actions and stigmatising those suffering from mental health (please see the findings of the inquest on Irish Times, I can't post the link, but expert and jury alike found mental illness to be a factor.)

Unfortunately, many people are often blindsided by their loved ones ability to conceal their issues. I've lost count of the amount of times I've worked with family members who carry guilt over not seeing the signs that led to family members taking their own lives. The reality is that often there are no signs. So with the greatest of respect, family members testimony can be both useful in building a picture of an individuals mental health or not, depending on an individual's determination to conceal their thoughts.

The Hawe case is definitely up for debate (it should be debated in the name of further understanding/preventing murder-suicide), and I hope that we start to make progress in spotting the signs, if there are any, earlier in these cases. Open discussion is the only way.

My absolute sympathy to all those involved in these tragic cases.

Thanks.

Graces7

Mad_maxx wrote: »

The institutions were closed at the behest of liberals, many ended up homeless or in prison as they couldn't cope and their families could not cope with them, no money was saved, prison costs money

In the UK some of the mental hospitals were like small towns. Own shops, church etc. Vast costs.

Another factor was the coming in of tranquilliser drugs aka chemical straitjackets.

The big hospitals and sectioning were overused but a middle course was possible and needed.

There were abuses

Have a look at Middlewood near Sheffield. Vast place.

ToddDameron

ToddDameron wrote: »

The Hawe case is definitely up for debate (and it should be debated in the name of understanding further understanding/preventing murder-suicide), and I hope that we start to make progress in spotting the signs, if there are any, earlier in these cases. Open discussion is the only way.

That was my point exactly and also my experience with the woman I described earlier. I had no idea as did no one else. Lots of people have fabulous insights after the fact. This is mostly for their own reasons and agendas.

anewme

I recall visiting a relative in a number of big mental institutions here in Ireland as a child.

They were like a workhouse, where people could be sent away from the public shame of having a mad person in your family. Many people had no visitors.

I would like to think we've moved along from that now.

Fakediamond

splinter65 wrote: »

Who was responsible for seeing that a mentally ill woman was not left in charge of children?

Anyone with knowledge of the particulars of such a situation.

Graces7

anewme wrote: »

I recall visiting a relative in a number of big mental institutions here in Ireland as a child.

They were like a workhouse, where people could be sent away from the public shame of having a mad person in your family. Many people had no visitors.

I would like to think we've moved along from that now.

But there is still a need for some to be resident at some times. It went too far and expected too much of vulnerable folk.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I stated in my previous post that I believe anyone who does something like this has mental health issues.

Male or female?

For what it's worth I agree with you, but if the father had done that he would be arrested on the day

retro:electro

ToddDameron wrote: »

Hi,

I had to sign up because I feel your post is wide of the mark.



"A line being fully drawn under" the mental health status of Alan Hawe is not the case at all. It's still largely discussed in the psychiatry community but that line was effectively dropped out of both sympathy of the family and social media backlash that felt the conclusion that mental illness played a part in Hawe's crime was both excusing him of his actions and stigmatising those suffering from mental health (please see the findings of the inquest on Irish Times, I can't post the link, but expert and jury alike found mental illness to be a factor.)

Unfortunately, many people are often blindsided by their loved ones ability to conceal their issues. I've lost count of the amount of times I've worked with family members who carry guilt over not seeing the signs that led to family members taking their own lives. The reality is that often there are no signs. So with the greatest of respect, family members testimony can be both useful in building a picture of an individuals mental health or not, depending on an individual's determination to conceal their thoughts.

The Hawe case is definitely up for debate (and it should be debated in the name of understanding further understanding/preventing murder-suicide), and I hope that we start to make progress in spotting the signs, if there are any, earlier in these cases. Open discussion is the only way.

My absolute sympathy to all those involved in these tragic cases.

Thanks.

Interesting POV. I guess it’s a lot easier to rationalise that someone was suffering mental health issues which led to a psychotic breakdown instead of being an abusive, narcissistic and controlling individual who kept his wife a prisoner in her own home and decided to annihilate his whole family because a rumour was about to come out about him which would harm his reputation. In the case of Hawe I’m inclined to agree with Clodagh’s family’s analysis and more prone to believe the latter.

Anyway he has already gotten more than enough attention and I’m loathe to give him any more when this crime is not about him. It’s about three beautiful young children who lost their lives so tragically.

ToddDameron

retro:electro wrote: »

Interesting POV. I guess it’s a lot easier to rationalise that someone was suffering mental health issues which led to a psychotic breakdown instead of being an abusive, narcissistic and controlling individual who kept his wife a prisoner in her own home and decided to annihilate his whole family because a rumour was about to come out about him which would harm his reputation. In the case of Hawe I’m inclined to agree with Clodagh’s family’s analysis and more prone to believe the latter.

And why can't it be both, out of interest? It's certainly easier to dismiss someone as evil and shut down all discussion, it's also irresponsible because here we are again. Failure to discuss these issues in an honest way is damaging.

Ellie2008

I’m always a bit surprised by how black & white opinions on these things are. We are all susceptible to mental health issues. Can people really not imagine a situation where for what ever reason you crack under stress. That stress could lead someone to the point where they can’t think straight. Very good points made about psychosis but even in the absence of serious mental illness I can understand how someone might crack.

retro:electro

ToddDameron wrote: »

And why can't it be both, out of interest? It's certainly easier to dismiss someone as evil and shut down all discussion, it's also irresponsible because here we are again. Failure to discuss these issues in an honest way is damaging.

How do you expect to “discuss these issues in an honest way” when this case is not even three days old yet? There is nothing “honest” about speciation. When the facts emerge there will of course be room to discuss and have honest conversations. Until then the only thing that’s damaging is speculative theories, we don’t even know how the children died yet ffs. And if you’re talking about Hawe I already said I’m reluctant to give him any more attention.

ToddDameron

retro:electro wrote: »

How do you expect to “discuss these issues in an honest way” when this case is not even three days old yet? There is nothing “honest” about speciation. When the facts emerge there will of course be room to discuss and have honest conversations. Until then the only thing that’s damaging is speculative theories, we don’t even know how the children died yet ffs. And if you’re talking about Hawe I already said I’m reluctant to give him any more attention.

I'm obviously talking about Hawe the case, it says it in both my posts and I responded to your post where you (not me) were discussing him! I haven't speculated one bit about this case. I was just pointing out your blatant and deliberate misinformation surrounding the Hawe case, nothing more, nothing less. And here you are being dishonest again once you were corrected. Stop setting back the discussion on mental illness because of your agenda.

retro:electro

ToddDameron wrote: »

I'm obviously talking about Hawe the case, it says it in both my posts and I responded to your post where you were discussing him. I haven't speculated one bit about this case. I was just pointing out your blatant and deliberate misinformation surrounding that case, and here you are being dishonest again. Stop setting back the discussion on mental illness because of your agenda.

I don’t have any agenda. I’m going with what Clodagh’s family said when they were interviewed on Prime Time last year. That Hawe was a controlling and narcissistic bully who brutally murdered his whole family in a final act of control and domestic violence. They do not believe he was suffering from depression. Are you saying they too are misinformed and have an agenda too? Because I think they would know more than you are claiming you know.

ToddDameron

retro:electro wrote: »

I don’t have any agenda. I’m going with what Clodagh’s family said when they were interviewed on Prime Time last year. That Hawe was a controlling and narcissistic bully who brutally murdered his whole family in a final act of control and domestic violence. They do not believe he was suffering from depression. Are you saying they too are misinformed and have an agenda too? Because I think they would know more than you are claiming you know.

I've already explained that depression and other mental illness often shows no outward signs. Did you not read my post at all? So with the greatest respect, family testimony isn't always useful, sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. That is not a slight on them at all, I see it all the time. How many times have you heard "jesus I can't believe he took his own life he was always in a great mood"? The fact is that a both a jury and an expert found mental illness was likely a factor. So if nothing else it says that it isnt black and white like you are suggesting. And there is a discussion to be had.
But here you are simply deciding its a shut case and using dishonest debating tactics. You're also largely misquoting the Prime Time episode. I'm done discussing it anyway, as it's now off topic.

retro:electro

ToddDameron wrote: »

I've already explained that depression and other mental illness often shows no outward signs. Did you not read my post at all? So with the greatest respect, family testimony isn't always useful, sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. That is not a slight on them at all, I see it all the time. How many times have you heard "jesus I can't believe he took his own life he was always in a great mood"? The fact is that a both a jury and an expert found mental illness was likely a factor. So if nothing else it says that it isnt black and white like you are suggesting. And there a discussion to be had.
But here you are simply deciding its a shut case and using dishonest debating tactics. You're also largely misquoting the Prime Time episode. I'm done discussing it anyway, as it's now off topic.

How so? I don’t believe I am at all. I’ll refer you to the thread on here which discussed the programme at the time.

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057959594/1

Anyway yes it’s off topic and I’m not really interested in discussing him further. I didn’t bring him up in the first place so happy to move on.

Gynoid

The meaning of mental illness is - a condition which causes serious disorder in a person's behaviour or thinking.
There is a broad spectrum as to how mental illness manifests itself. It can appear as ''sad mad'' to ''bad mad'', with the latter being naturally far harder for people to tolerate. But there can also be overlap and complexity. ( I use mad as a shorthand term not to be mean, as I have known severe mental illness in close family circles.)
As with suicide, societal taboos MAY no longer function as much as a restraint as before. This is an issue for discussion too - the undermining of taboos - though perhaps, like other opinions on this issue, it falls outside the scope of thoughts that are acceptable at the moment.

splinter65

anewme wrote: »

I recall visiting a relative in a number of big mental institutions here in Ireland as a child.

They were like a workhouse, where people could be sent away from the public shame of having a mad person in your family. Many people had no visitors.

I would like to think we've moved along from that now.

But what do we do now for people who need long term in patient psychiatric treatment?