Three children found dead mod note in post 1

splinter65

ToddDameron wrote: »

I've already explained that depression and other mental illness often shows no outward signs. Did you not read my post at all? So with the greatest respect, family testimony isn't always useful, sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. That is not a slight on them at all, I see it all the time. How many times have you heard "jesus I can't believe he took his own life he was always in a great mood"? The fact is that a both a jury and an expert found mental illness was likely a factor. So if nothing else it says that it isnt black and white like you are suggesting. And there is a discussion to be had.
But here you are simply deciding its a shut case and using dishonest debating tactics. You're also largely misquoting the Prime Time episode. I'm done discussing it anyway, as it's now off topic.

Hawe in his death has been given the position of the very embodiment of an almost demonic prime example of toxic masculinity. Bullying controlling cruel misogynistic...yes he seems to have been all of these.
If you try to suggest that he also may have suffered from a psychiatric illness then you may be prepared to be attacked by those who have tied the whole Hawe story up with a neat little bow for all kinds of reasons.

splinter65

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Male or female?

For what it's worth I agree with you, but if the father had done that he would be arrested on the day

Nobody being found lying on the pavement in a state of collapse needing to be taken to hospital in an ambulance is ever arrested in this country , man or woman.

BarryD2

ToddDameron wrote: »

I've already explained that depression and other mental illness often shows no outward signs. Did you not read my post at all? So with the greatest respect, family testimony isn't always useful, sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. That is not a slight on them at all, I see it all the time..

What you seem to be implying then is that the psychiatric profession in this regard is worthless, like an economist - they'll you what happened and why after the event..

CrabRevolution

splinter65 wrote: »

Hawe in his death has been given the position of the very embodiment of an almost demonic prime example of toxic masculinity. Bullying controlling cruel misogynistic...yes he seems to have been all of these.
If you try to suggest that he also may have suffered from a psychiatric illness then you may be prepared to be attacked by those who have tied the whole Hawe story up with a neat little bow for all kinds of reasons.

What was significant in the Hawe case was that there was an actual campaign (on both traditional and social media) aiming to ensure there was nothing positive said about him, no discussion on mental illness, and that the memory was black and white:he didn't have a breakdown or mental health issues, he was just evil.

It was also the first time I'd ever heard the phrase "family annihilator", a deliberately emotive and loaded phrase if ever I've heard one.

Will there be any similar treatment in this case? I doubt it.

ToddDameron

BarryD2 wrote: »

What you seem to be implying then is that the psychiatric profession in this regard is worthless, like an economist - they'll you what happened and why after the event..

It could well turn out to be case. Psychiatry is improving all the time but in the grand scheme of the immensely complex workings of the mind it is still early days. Lack of freedom for discussion or simply dismissing everything as the actions of an evil person will certainly stifle any progress though. Make no mistake, the media frenzy and deliberate disregarding of psychiatric/scientific evidence surrounding that case was damaging to psychiatry as a whole.

interesting discussion since

im fairly reactive to posters who drop "you only disagree in ignorance because you have no experience of what it's like to *x*", its a rotten sentiment that has no logic behind it beyond attempting to define only one acceptable response to that situation and then to browbeat any disagreeing party out of the discussion.

I agree that culpability etc is never going to be clearcut in a case like this.

firstly, the fact of the abhorrence of the act suggests the "nobody in their right mind would....." case.

secondly, psychiatry is a behavioural science and therefore never particularly effective as a predictive tool for individuals. furthermore, it's a study dealing with persons less likely to behave rationally by the very fact of the subject in treatment.

but the discussion and to have it openly without the open-shut "mental health" or "evil" is very, very important. because there is one black-and-white item of stark clarity here- three children are dead, and they were in the care of someone where there was evidence of mental health issues.

i know that this sounds cruel and there are many that will react as if this angle is an extra burden on someone at a low ebb.

but my point, and im not sure you see it addressed often until an event like this occurs, is that you never hear of voices speaking up for the rights of children not to be left dependent on adults that are possibly not that dependable.

and when a parent (and in particular, i think, a mother) is struggling, children are seen too often a crutch that cannot be removed for fear of the effect on the patient, but that the quality of their care (or possibility of risk to them) never enters the conversation.

RandomName2

Deleted User wrote: »

and when a parent (and in particular, i think, a mother) is struggling, children are seen too often a crutch that cannot be removed for fear of the effect on the patient, but that the quality of their care (or possibility of risk to them) never enters the conversation.

I'm going to reserve judgment until the facts become more clear, but it is pretty clear that somebody (or perhaps even society at large) dropped the ball.

Was there any support? Did anybody reach out to this family?

This is an utterly terrible thing to have happened.

Graces7

splinter65 wrote: »

But what do we do now for people who need long term in patient psychiatric treatment?

almost nothing. Maybe is why the suicide rate is so high. people are left to struggle with little help.with families who cannot cope have a look at the depression thread in long term illness here on boards .ie

car_radio19834

The Hawe case always shows me how hypocritical people are.

If Hawe kills himself and no others people would be saying "poor fella, depression in illness, he wasn't in the right mind, he didn't know what he was doing"

But when he kills his family and himself he's an evil bastard who should rot in hell.

If he's of able mind to know killing others along with himself is bad and he shouldn't do it, then surely the man who kills himself only is of able mind to know the suffering it brings to everyone.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

but the discussion and to have it openly without the open-shut "mental health" or "evil" is very, very important. because there is one black-and-white item of stark clarity here- three children are dead, and they were in the care of someone where there was evidence of mental health issues.

i know that this sounds cruel and there are many that will react as if this angle is an extra burden on someone at a low ebb.

but my point, and im not sure you see it addressed often until an event like this occurs, is that you never hear of voices speaking up for the rights of children not to be left dependent on adults that are possibly not that dependable.

and when a parent (and in particular, i think, a mother) is struggling, children are seen too often a crutch that cannot be removed for fear of the effect on the patient, but that the quality of their care (or possibility of risk to them) never enters the conversation.

If you're suggesting that society should remove all children from every parent that has anxiety, depression or other mental health conditions, we're going to find ourselves opening a very large number of orphanages or similar institutions to accommodate the very large number of children in such conditions.


And most of those children are getting fairly decent parenting, probably as good parenting on average as those households with parents without mental health conditions.

pinkyeye

I think it's relevant that this happened on a weekend.

Mental health services operate Monday-Friday 9-5 only in this country which is so ridiculous.

The only option given to someone suffering a mental health crisis outside of these hours is to attend an A&E where they will be left sitting for 12-13 hours or more because they're not considered a priority.

We need to change this system.

LongtimeLurkio

splinter65 wrote: »

Who was responsible for seeing that a mentally ill woman was not left in charge of children?

Sadly 'care in the community' is almost non existent.
feeling bad...… take a pill
Feeling depressed...… take a pill
feeling suicidal...… take a pill
otherwise you will pay through the nose for private counselling or wait a lifetime on a list for public. and its all up to you.

Rezident

Deleted User wrote: »

interesting discussion since

im fairly reactive to posters who drop "you only disagree in ignorance because you have no experience of what it's like to *x*", its a rotten sentiment that has no logic behind it beyond attempting to define only one acceptable response to that situation and then to browbeat any disagreeing party out of the discussion.

I agree that culpability etc is never going to be clearcut in a case like this.

firstly, the fact of the abhorrence of the act suggests the "nobody in their right mind would....." case.

secondly, psychiatry is a behavioural science and therefore never particularly effective as a predictive tool for individuals. furthermore, it's a study dealing with persons less likely to behave rationally by the very fact of the subject in treatment.

but the discussion and to have it openly without the open-shut "mental health" or "evil" is very, very important. because there is one black-and-white item of stark clarity here- three children are dead, and they were in the care of someone where there was evidence of mental health issues.

i know that this sounds cruel and there are many that will react as if this angle is an extra burden on someone at a low ebb.

but my point, and im not sure you see it addressed often until an event like this occurs, is that you never hear of voices speaking up for the rights of children not to be left dependent on adults that are possibly not that dependable.

and when a parent (and in particular, i think, a mother) is struggling, children are seen too often a crutch that cannot be removed for fear of the effect on the patient, but that the quality of their care (or possibility of risk to them) never enters the conversation.

This is what terrifies me, and there does not seem to be an effective way to get these people help if they refuse it. My wife has suffered with depression and anxiety disorder (diagnosed) for over a decade (possibly all her life). I am convinced she also suffers from Paranoia (undiagnosed but it has ruined our relationship) but she refuses to accept this and is now paranoid about people thinking she is paranoid (you could not make this up). She ran away with our kids 6 months ago and has been hiding in her parents house on the far side of the country having delusions that her boss and my mother etc. are 'out to get her'.

From researching her symptoms/behaviour, it looks like 'Bipolar II' (Depression + anxiety + paranoia) which is notoriously hard to diagnose but she refuses all help and only uses homeopathic and alternative 'remedies' instead. I did get her to two top therapists over the years and they agree that she is 'in crisis' but seemingly nobody can help her if she refuses help. She had a meltown at the therapist at the last therapy session and ran away instead of completing the therapy but apparently this is confidential and cannot even be used in court to get her help? Her family (rural area) cannot countenance the possibility that she has any mental issues (stigma is real) so myself and the kids must continue to suffer indefinitely. Our son becomes hysterical when he has to go back to her, it is the most difficult thing I have ever had to do, but apparently I am lucky to even see them every second weekend, being the father.

I got a court order to see the kids but she broke it. I am so scared for the kids, I think they are ok once her parents are looking after them but when she moves out of her parents' I don't see how she could look after them by herself, she does not cope well with life or stress, she could not even look after herself the last few years before we had the kids. Not much equality for fathers in family law, the mother seems to have all the rights, no matter how unwell she evidently is. Is there nothing we can do before the children are physically harmed?


tl:dr - if it was a broken leg, you would go to the doctor to get it fixed. How do we help people fix the invisible, mental problems that are festering?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Deleted User wrote: »

Male or female?

For what it's worth I agree with you, but if the father had done that he would be arrested on the day

If he was found in the state the mother was, I doubt that very much.

Spanish Eyes

Dad needs focus and care now without a doubt. God help him.

How would anyone recover from this tragedy, most of all the Dad.

With due respect for mother. She obviously was in need of care herself. Bless them all. No judgment from me.

Spanish Eyes

Terrible tragedy and we will never know what the reason was. I feel so much for the Dad.

I believe the mam was a nurse in Crumlin hospital, so she may (May I said) have known how to administer drugs.

I don't know how to say this.... but I hope they had a more peaceful passing than the Hawe kids and their mother did.

May they all rest in peace.

omega man

Shocking if indeed true.
Not having the mental health bs either IF she has killed her own children. Premeditated murder of vulnerable defenceless children whom most likely worshipped and adored her as their mother, carer and protector.

anewme

omega man wrote: »

Shocking if indeed true.
Not having the mental health bs either IF she has killed her own children. Premeditated murder of vulnerable defenceless children whom most likely worshipped and adored her as their mother, carer and protector.

Mental health is not bs.

omega man

anewme wrote: »

Mental health is not bs.

It’s not, but it’s no excuse for murder of children or any murder full stop.

Pawwed Rig

Mod note

bans and cards handed out. Do not make a statement on what happened unless what you say can be backed up by a verifiable source

Darc19

omega man wrote: »

Shocking if indeed true.
Not having the mental health bs either IF she has killed her own children. Premeditated murder of vulnerable defenceless children whom most likely worshipped and adored her as their mother, carer and protector.

It's this type of sh1t that makes so many people hide mental health issues.

People like you with no understanding and no empathy.

Shame on you. Shame on you.

omega man

Darc19 wrote: »

It's this type of sh1t that makes so many people hide mental health issues.

People like you with no understanding and no empathy.

Shame on you. Shame on you.

No empathy ffs are you serious!!! My empathy is for the children and their poor dad. I actually can’t believe people can confuse mental Heath awareness with the act of multiple child murder. People like me...wow

anewme

omega man wrote: »

No empathy ffs are you serious!!! My empathy is for the children and their poor dad. I actually can’t believe people can confuse mental Heath awareness with the act of multiple child murder. People like me...wow

You said mental health bs. What did you mean by that?

omega man

anewme wrote: »

You said mental health is. What did you mean by that?

Is what? Bs? I meant as an excuse for killing children. Clear?

anewme

omega man wrote: »

Is what? Bs? I meant as an excuse for killing children. Clear?

No I'm not clear.

It is a fact or it isn't.

iamwhoiam

omega man wrote: »

Is what? Bs? I meant as an excuse for killing children. Clear?

There is a big difference between an excuse and a reason . You should realise that and know the difference

omega man

anewme wrote: »

No I'm not clear.

It is a fact or it isn't.

What are you asking specifically? I thought my last statement was clear enough.

anewme

omega man wrote: »

What are you asking specifically? I thought my last statement was clear enough.

I am asking specifically.

Mental health will be a reason or it will not.

If it is, it isn't bs.

omega man

iamwhoiam wrote: »

There is a big difference between an excuse and a reason . You should realise that and know the difference

I get that but it doesn’t reduce the act of child murder to any less of a heinous crime.

KiKi III

Petty squabbling on this thread is really undignified.