Dublin Airport Bus Service Changes & Discussion

p_haugh

Looking good!

d51984

Big upgrade for driver and passengers. It does look well I have to say. @devnull do you know how many for Dublin? We will probably see a few plaxtons heading to UK.

bk

Looks well. I'm curious, I assume it has a toilet? How many seats? Will they get a longer triaxle for Cork?

d51984

https://flic.kr/p/2ousM4H

Nearside view (Darren Hall)

d51984

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498857#Comment_120498857

Yea I would say they would all have toilets (don't want to make the same mistake as the Jonks). Would be great to see tri axle versions for Cork, only standard versions ordered as far as I'm aware. These Mercs will put Aircoach back up there now, the Plaxtons were a big downgrade, I can see a lot of the Plaxtons been shipped to other arms of first bus in the UK.

belfast stephen

these are not brand new coach they look to be 2019 stock that has been bought Belfast only getting 4 was to be 5 but i was taken to be the new Lannister team coach talk of belfast serivce going Hourly service the 4 belfast ones are meant to be in Derry

bk

Well the Dublin City to Airport routes don’t really need toilets. So I was wondering if like the Panthers, they will have both intercity models with toilets and less seats and city model with no toilets and more seats. Or are these just for intercity and they will keep the toilet less Panthers for the city routes.

GoBus/Citylink use new tri-axles (Volvo 9900) to Cork, I feel the distance needs a tri-axle and Aircoach need it to Cork to compete.

Either way good to see new Coaches and a much higher spec, hopefully a return to the old times of high quality.

d51984

What was the coach behind in this pic? The original ones that started it all off.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497636#Comment_120497636

A further two have now been delivered, making five in total so far delivered to Dublin.

Registrations are

• 231D15557
• 231D15559
• 231D15561
• 231D15562
• 231D15563

Not totally sure how many there are going to be in total, truth be told.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120500221#Comment_120500221

I don't know what is happening elsewhere, but all of the ones delivered through M50 Bus and Coach to Aircoach so far are on 2023 plates so unless they are dealer stock that has sat around for ages without being registered they are new.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120500229#Comment_120500229

The jury is still very much out on what specification that these coaches will be. Tourismo's certainly are more premium than Panthers, but the devil in the detail is the spec that has been opted for. A straight 55 seat 12.3m Tourismo for instance wouldn't be any better.

The Tourismo in two axle format is offered in 12.3m and 13.1m configurations.

• The 12.3m variant is a straight 51 seater at normal spec, but can be specified with as little as 45 or as many as 55 as options.
• The 13.1m variant is a straight 55 seater at normal spec, but can be specified with as little as 45 or as many as 59 as options.

Honestly the vehicles from the photos I've seen look more like 12.3m vehicles than 13.1m but it's very hard to tell truth be told without seeing one fully side on. Also the A on the Aircoach livery makes it harder to see the length also when viewed at an angle.

For comparisons to previous Aircoach vehicles

• The Setra 415s were 12.1m and had 44 seats without a toilet.
• The Jonck's were 13.5m and had seated 53 without a toilet.
• The Panthers are 12.6m and seat 49 with a toilet or 53 without a toilet.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120500466#Comment_120500466

Looks to be a Volvo B10M with a Jonckheere Mistral (pre-facelift) body.

d51984

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120500515#Comment_120500515

Good man Devnull, jesus I remember these new. The bendys replacing the flyer busess on the carparks.

d51984

Last one... the bus geek in me dragging us off topic...

d51984

I remember this been hired from probus back in the day. Full VIP spec, only 39 or so white full leather seats.

mikeybhoy

They had these on the carparks temporarily back in 2006. Strange seeing a First Bus in Ireland almost like seeing a DB or BE bus operating in the UK. Think they later went on to Manchester.

belfast stephen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120500475#Comment_120500475

that is my understanding is that they are all 2019 stock that Merc is looking rid of Volo Have been doing the same thats why so many 9900 and 9700s on the Road

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120503827#Comment_120503827

Could all be various different specs as well then since I doubt Mercedes built all of their dealer stock to the same specification.

belfast stephen

National Express has an operator licence in Northern Ireland this in for Dublin express Belfast to Dublin serivce

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120552172#Comment_120552172

They'll also need international authorisation permit to run a route though, an operator license on it's own is not enough, but that in itself isn't an impossible obstacle to overcome.

belfast stephen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120552418#Comment_120552418

the Paperwork for that has been summitted to the NTA so it down to them now on how long it will take

mikeybhoy

I see Dublin Express recently opened a large ticket sale desk/counter in T1. Must be putting Aircoach under serious pressure on the 700 route.

devnull

When Aircoach first launched the Cork route and came under a heavy assault by GoBe and also came under pressure by Dublin Coach on the Belfast route, they launched an exemplary commercial response to defend their position on those routes. Management of the company has changed and it really does show.

It does not surprise me what is happening in Dublin Airport at all. It's what happens when an operator (Aircoach in this case) sits back and allows another commercially savvy operator to do whatever they want without properly defending itself. They've simply watched Dublin Express built a significant ticket agent network in Dublin without any effort to fight that. National Express has a history of building huge ticket desks in prominent places in airports with generic non branded and non coloured signs such as "Bus and Coach information" or "Tickets to Dublin" make it look like a travel advice desk to drum up trade and take it away from their competitors.

Also the situation with the 705X is even more puzzling than with the 700. They've got a successful route between Dublin and Belfast, but they've gutted the frequency of that to chase what surely must be very limited returns on the Derry to Belfast corridor that could only muster enough passengers for a minibus (and that's before they took several stops and one of the airports out) with journey times Derry to Dublin being very uncompetitive. No wonder National Express are trying to start a route up on the corridor, Aircoach have practically given them an open goal to do so and have kindly even provided them spaces in their timetable to fit in!

bk

Yes, I think Aircoach have lost their way over the last few years and made some very questionable business decisions.

I totally understand why they bought the Panthers over 10 years ago when the economy was poor and money was tight, a cheaper alternative made sense then. But I've no idea why they continued to buy them in 2017 and in particular 2019, when the economy had improved greatly and it was clear they were going to face increased competition on their routes. Arguably their choice of coach left a gap in the market from competitors to launch in the first place.

On the Cork route, around the time GoBE became GoBus, GoBus really seemed to get their act together and became serious competition to Aircoach on that route. Better schedule, better location and at the time nice new Volvo 9700's which were much nicer then Aircoach Panthers. Personally I stopped using Aircoach and moved over to GoBus and I saw a real pick up in passenger numbers on GoBus.

Now they are still using tired old Panthers against slick brand new Citylink/GoBus Volvo 9900's on the route!

On the Belfast route they faced competition from much newer and nicer Mercedes coaches from Dublin Coach.

But worse, at a time when Citylink were locking down a monopoly on the Galway route and a very strong position in Cork, Aircoach has been messing around launching a weak stopping service to Galway and a seemingly crazy service to Derry!

Did Aircoach try and bid for GoBus? Either way it looks like a big lose for them.

Aircoach desperately needs to refresh it's fleet and work hard against all these competitors if it wants to stay relevant.

The question in my mind is, will Dublin Coach look to sell up? A three way bidding war between Aircoach, Citylink and Dublin Express/NatEx could pay off nicely for them and give the winner a very strong position.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120561002#Comment_120561002

Basically First Group are treating the Irish market as if it were the UK and First mostly only operate city and local services in the UK not long distance coach services. I'm guessing they think that coach services work the same way that city services do and they should the cheapest most fuel efficient coaches possible not the most comfortable. First want to treat the Irish market the very same as the UK.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120561110#Comment_120561110

And that is where they are going to come undone to be honest.

I remember one of the things that Leon Daniels, ex FirstGroup bus director said years ago about Aircoach. He said that it might look like the UK and share some things in common with the UK, but Ireland is a different country and coaching is a different business to buses and he was always telling his colleagues that.

Aircoach under Allen Parker was a fairly lean company with a focus on high quality coach services. The management at that point knew the market and ran Aircoach at fairly arms length rather than as part of the UK business. Don't get me wrong, there were certainly issues with customer service, marketing and embracing technology but operationally and commercially they were excellent. What we've seen since, is a new MD come from an operations background with little commercial experience, who has spent years working in UK Operations of First and the last few years we've seen lots of middle managers hired to recreate a structure similar to what is commonplace in First's UK Bus Operating companies and the company be run like that.

I'm not saying the current management are all bad. They have vastly improved the website, embraced modern technology in a way far more than Aircoach ever did in the past and they have also better at marketing in general than they were. There's also been a fair bit of innovation and value add services that they have developed which they deserve credit for. But recent fleet and commercial strategies have been poor at best and with someone like National Express on the scene, who have always been commercially outstanding they have to and they must do better and if that means that First need to take some hard decisions and swallow their pride, so be it.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120561002#Comment_120561002

The fact that COVID hit and made Dublin Bus give up their 747 and 757 prime spots outside departures really bailed out what was a major faux par of going from the best spots at Dublin Airport to being banished to the general bus area with everyone else. If you think how they are second best now, imagine how much worse it would be with another competitor on the scene and them banished to the bus area.

The Galway situation also is curious. It was well known for a while that GoBus and CityLink were attempting a merger and it was obvious for a while that the route was not performing well under Bus Eireann. When Bus Eireann dropped the route that could have essentially made it impossible for the merger to go ahead without any concessions unless an operator picked it up. However by picking the route up, Aircoach essentially paved the way for the merger to go through. I'm not sure that was so smart commercially when you look at how saturated the Dublin to Galway market is by CityLink and their various brands these days and how Aircoach is around the edges. If nobody else was sniffing around the Galway to Dublin license, there is surely an argument that they would have been better off waiting for the CCPC to rule that as the only active operators on the Dublin to Galway corridor, that the newly merged CityLink and GoBus must make concessions by disposing of one of their licenses as that would result in a more even playing field on that corridor than there is right now.

I think the fleet is something that needs improving, certainly but I think right now that's only the biggest issue on the Cork route. The biggest issues on the other routes where there are competitors tend to be around what seems like poor commercial decision making. We will have to see where they put the new Mercedes Tourismos and what kind of spec they are before commenting further. I would hope they do not go down the road of putting them on the Belfast route to try and chase those limited returns on the Derry section further. For me they need to be on the Cork route to help stave off the onslaught which s coming from CityLink in the coming weeks.

By the way, Aircoach paid €2.7m for Airporter. I'll leave everyone to form their own opinion on whether it was worth it or not.

Vic_08

The Greystones and Killiney Aircoach routes are now junk. First arrival at airport is 05.34 from Greystones and 06.04 from Killiney so effectively no use for a huge swathe of morning departures. Last return to Killiney is 23.35 which is OK but not brilliant, Greystones is a truly pathetic 20.05

Then there is the unacceptable 2 hourly frequency. Why would an inbound passenger who cannot accurately forecast their time getting out of the airport be willing to put up with facing a very long wait for a premium (priced) service, you'd get from the airport to Dun Laoghaire, Dalkey, Bray or Greystones in under 2 hours on a regular leap card fare.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120564020#Comment_120564020

The problem is a lack of drivers though at the end of the day .

In order to put extra runs on those routes they are going to have to take them off other routes where there is more competition. That's about the only commercial thing they've got right lately even if it sucks for passengers. Better to have a timetable that you can deliver across the stable of the routes than have a better timetable where you're cancelling services every day as there is no slack in the system. Reliability of an airprot service is absolutely vital.

Even now they are only really coping thanks to the daily use of hire-ins (with Nolan Coaches, Wexford Bus, Eirebus, Royal Irish Tours and McGills and Kearneys all operating for Aircoach in the last few weeks) and drivers that are being sent over from the UK that are driving the car park and staff shuttles, presumably because that doesn't require route training and local knowledge in the same way that the coach routes would.

Not quite sure Aircoach have helped themselves at times though. They managed to annoy the Airporter staff enough with apparent worse terms and conditions as part of the takeover which has meant that they've increasingly had to cover the 705X route with Dublin based staff as a fair few of the drivers didn't transfer, which meant the increased PVR of the 705X has meant more Dublin drivers being assigned to the route.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120564020#Comment_120564020

Agreed not sure how much longer those routes can last for without a return to pre covid frequency.