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Women independents

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2

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    #32
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,505 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    KiKi III wrote: »
    That’s a no, then.

    Well...I know this is controversial in this day and age...but you can assume their gender and work it out for yourself!!!


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    #33
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Would you have a problem with a quota of Catholics...or Scientologists, or deisel car drivers or cocaine users...anybody can run for public office as it stands...you wish to subvert the democratic process...so yes, people like you frighten me.

    You must be mistaking me with another poster given that I have not at any point suggested or endorsed quotas.


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    #34
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,505 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    KiKi III wrote: »
    You must be mistaking me with another poster given that I have not at any point suggested or endorsed quotas.

    It is the only way to achieve the desired diversity you wish to see.


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    #35
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Can you point me to any research that suggests women simply don’t want it as much as men? Or is that just an opinion based on nothing?


    Its an opinion based on observable evidence. There are no barriers yet women are not putting themselves forward.


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    #36
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Well...I know this is controversial in this day and age...but you can assume their gender and work it out for yourself!!!

    I think what you’re trying to say is that more men are running? Well, at least you’ve got that much right. And you’re extrapolating from that to suggest that means women aren’t interested? But you have no proof that they’re not interested. That’s a guess.

    There could be a myriad of other reasons.


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    #37
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Its an opinion based on observable evidence. There are no barriers yet women are not putting themselves forward.

    Cool, as long as we’re clear that you have zero actual evidence for your opinion.

    Whereas a Joint Oireachtas report has suggested there are multiple barriers to women getting involved in politics.

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/lifestyle/the-five-cs-in-womens-way-29207130.html

    No doubt you’ll reject this actual evidence for one reason or another, but there’s real research gone into this unlike your half-baked opinion which you’ve backed up in no way, shape or form.


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    #38
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    It is the only way to achieve the desired diversity you wish to see.

    I disagree, and please don’t ascribe political positions I don’t hold to me. It’s bad manners, especially when once you’ve done it you say I should be “shunned by society” based on your mistaken assumption.


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    #39
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,505 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    KiKi III wrote: »
    I disagree, and please don’t ascribe political positions I don’t hold to me. It’s bad manners, especially when once you’ve done it you say I should be “shunned by society” based on your mistaken assumption.

    Well don't just come out with utterly banal statements like "more diversity please" without expressing one iota of an idea of how to achieve it then....


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    #40
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Well don't just come out with utterly banal statements like "more diversity please" without expressing one iota of an idea of how to achieve it then....

    I’m not allowed to point out something I see as a problem unless I have a fully formed solution?


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    #41
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Cool, as long as we’re clear that you have zero actual evidence for your opinion.

    Again, the evidence is there for all to see. Less women are putting themselves forward for election. This is observable and was in fact observed by the feminist author or the article.
    KiKi III wrote: »
    No doubt you’ll reject this actual evidence for one reason or another, but there’s actual research gone into this unlike your half-baked opinion which you’ve backed up in no way, shape or form.

    It is not "evidence" at all, you have cited a report written by a biased group of femenists (womenforelection.ie). have you got a more unbiased account of the "barriers" women are facing? Anyway, here is a response to the 5 C's mentioned in the paragraph long link you shared...

    Confidence

    Grow a pair. If you don't have confidence I don't want you to represent me anyway.

    Childcare

    Don't have children if you want a career in politics.

    Cash

    Raise money like everyone else. Men have to raise money for their campaigns.

    Candidate Selection

    Parties are crying out for women. If a woman is available who is remotely confident, she will get selected over a man in many cases.

    Culture


    Again, it is not culture that is stopping women from becoming politicians. It is personal choice. There are many many top politicians who are women but they will always be in smaller numbers than men.



    None of these "5 C's" have anything to do with sexism.


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    #42
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,505 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    KiKi III wrote: »
    I’m not allowed to point out something I see as a problem unless I have a fully formed solution?

    Ya I know, it sounds nuts right!

    This is why I am afraid of people who drink the identity politics Kool Aid...they don't know what they are doing!


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    #43
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    “Grow a pair” What a fantastic way of putting it. You think women need balls?

    “Don’t have children if you want a career in politics.” Men don’t have to choose between the two.

    Anyway, I’m not going to convince you of anything, your mind is made up. And your arguments are so lacking in any kind of depth, nuance or evidence that it’s hard to take you seriously.

    So I’m off to do something more pleasant with my afternoon.


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    #44
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    KiKi III wrote: »
    “Don’t have children if you want a career in politics.” Men don’t have to choose between the two.

    life isnt fair. there are loads of well known stats of how men have worse lives than women and vice versa. ce la vie. we're not going to socially engineer biological realities out of existence any time soon.


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    #45
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Ya I know, it sounds nuts right!

    This is why I am afraid of people who drink the identity politics Kool Aid...they don't know what they are doing!

    It is nuts. You sound unstable based on your posts on this thread.

    This is a discussion forum. If people were only allowed to discuss problems they have all the answers for it would be a quiet place indeed.

    Like kidchameleon you have no interest in engaging in a genuine discussion aimed at finding solutions. You’d rather simply pretend men being in charge is the natural order of things.

    Slán.


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    #46
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Cool, as long as we’re clear that you have zero actual evidence for your opinion.

    Whereas a Joint Oireachtas report has suggested there are multiple barriers to women getting involved in politics.

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/lifestyle/the-five-cs-in-womens-way-29207130.html

    No doubt you’ll reject this actual evidence for one reason or another, but there’s real research gone into this unlike your half-baked opinion which you’ve backed up in no way, shape or form.

    The only one of those that is a genuine barrier is childcare. The rest is BS.


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    #47
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,505 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    KiKi III wrote: »
    It is nuts. You sound unstable based on your posts on this thread.

    This is a discussion forum. If people were only allowed to discuss problems they have all the answers for it would be a quiet place indeed.

    Like kidchameleon you have no interest in engaging in a genuine discussion aimed at finding solutions. You’d rather simply pretend men being in charge is the natural order of things.

    Slán.

    Ya, in this day and age, someone like me does sound nuts...I've already mentioned that....I like living in a culture rooted in "democracy" where all can run for public office and we all have the freedom of choice to do so or not.

    You haven't even presented anything that remotely looks like a solution...without which there is no discussion...you just expect us to unquestionably accept your desire for "more diversity" because you believe you live your life to a higher moral standard , otherwise known as virtue signalling...this is an open forum not a twitter rabbit hole!!


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    #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The reason there is disparity is that not even women will vote for women


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    #49
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Yurt! wrote: »
    The only one of those that is a genuine barrier is childcare. The rest is BS.


    Its not really. If you want to raise to the top of any career, it is better not to have children. If anything, it is unfair on men, they CANNOT have children.


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    #50
    tritium
    Registered Users Posts: 7,443 ✭✭✭tritium


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    The standard at which most women consider something clean means that they basically have to do it all on their own to meet their own standard, you cant share a part of the housework where somebodys exoectations are much higher than the other,

    Interestingly there was a study (in the US I think) that concluded exactly this. A large amount of the effort was to do things “they way they wanted it done”. Fine and good but I’m not sure if I hire someone to do a job and they deliver on what’s asked to an acceptable standard I’m certainly not paying the company again to redo it or augment it just because someone decided it could be done better in their view.


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    #51
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Anyway, I’m not going to convince you of anything, your mind is made up. And your arguments are so lacking in any kind of depth, nuance or evidence that it’s hard to take you seriously.

    So I’m off to do something more pleasant with my afternoon.


    Wow, politician material right there :rolleyes: Well done young lady


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    #52
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    KiKi III wrote: »
    ?

    In some respects I believe it would. For example, I believe that a government with close to 50% women would be more likely to prioritise issues like the cost of childcare. Men in their 50s/ 60s don’t care so much about this because it effects them not a jot.

    I don't think many women in their 50s/60s are effected much by childcare.


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    #53
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    KiKi III wrote: »

    “Don’t have children if you want a career in politics.” Men don’t have to choose between the two.

    Neither do women. Maternity leave, on full pay, is granted to all Oireachtas members. Representatives can return to work after the leave has expired. They can't be discriminated against due to their absence.


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    #54
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Yurt! wrote: »
    The only one of those that is a genuine barrier is childcare. The rest is BS.

    Childcare is BS too. It suggests that the person (male or female) wants the job in politics - and the extremely long hours/travel that comes with it - but also wants be the main childcare provider for their offspring. The two are incompatible! But it's as incompatible for father's of children as it is for mother's. Unless the suggestion is that it's the mother's job to look after the children?


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    #55
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    KaneToad wrote: »
    Unless the suggestion is that it's the mother's job to look after the children?

    well this has been the case for the entirety of human history across all known societies and cultures, also for the majority of species that have evolved on this planet.

    it's a hard habit to break.


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    #56
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    KaneToad wrote: »
    Neither do women. Maternity leave, on full pay, is granted to all Oireachtas members. Representatives can return to work after the leave has expired. They can't be discriminated against due to their absence.


    Legally no. But the electorate might forget who the woman is if she disappears for months to have a baby whilst a childless & ambitious candidate takes up the slack. Additionally, a female politician will be less available to her constituents if she is trying to balance a political life with the role of a mother. Both are full time jobs in their own right.


    It is easy enough to have a job and be a mother but to have a career and be a mother is much more difficult if not impossible. A political career requires far more hours than a standard work week. Women want to be with their children whilst men want to bring back the bread so to speak.


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    #57
    mikemac2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭mikemac2


    KaneToad wrote: »
    Neither do women. Maternity leave, on full pay, is granted to all Oireachtas members. Representatives can return to work after the leave has expired. They can't be discriminated against due to their absence.

    The electorate would punish them for the absence (though Dara Murphy got away with it! ). "We put you in there and now there will be zero clinics." Well maybe a councillor will deputise but then the councillor will try to push you out at the next selection committee.

    In politics your worst enemies are usually in your own party.

    All this shouldn't happen but it does


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    #58
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,505 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    well this has been the case for the entirety of human history across all known societies and cultures, also for the majority of species that have evolved on this planet.

    it's a hard habit to break.

    Ya but Mother Nature is a Patriarchal Construct!


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    #59
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Ya but Mother Nature is a Patriarchal Construct!
    well indeed. we also have no idea what the long term impact of socially engineering ourselves out of our biological constraints will be. Paleo diets are said to be good, what about paleo gender roles?


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    #60
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,944 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    What struck me is if women feel so aggrieved, why have more not run as independents in protest and I am sure if the 50% women vote for them it would show the parties.


    At the risk of pointing out the blatantly obvious, that article represents the opinion of just one woman who feels aggrieved. One woman does not represent all women, and you’re not the only person missing that point, the author misses it too in assuming women think like she does.

    The whole point of politics is that people’s political opinions are represented, it has nothing to do with specific traits of the individual politician who is elected to make representations on behalf of their constituents. In the same way as I can’t vote for politicians who aren’t standing for election in my constituency, I can’t vote for someone who chooses not to stand for election at all.

    The author of that article appears to refuse to accept the possibility that women don’t stand for election simply because they don’t want to. The author appears to be assuming that it isn’t a conscious choice. How quaint.


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    #61
    JJayoo
    Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭JJayoo


    I'm gonna vote for the Greens I want a pet wolf


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