Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

Fishing is one area where the EU needs to get real and it's not unreasonable to want to make your own rules and laws ,not be told what to do by some faceless panel in Brussels.

Do you know that Nigel Farage was one of that panel and he went to 1 out of more than 40 meetings?

The British export two thirds of their catch to the EU. Jingoism isn't going to rectify that problem.

davedanon

RobMc59 wrote: »

Fishing is one area where the EU needs to get real and it's not unreasonable to want to make your own rules and laws ,not be told what to do by some faceless panel in Brussels.

'Faceless panel'. What utter nonsense. And fishing is such a tiny industry economically that it shows that Brexit is all about symbolism and not substance. The UK will have to make a deal on fishing because they'll have no market for what they catch if they don't. The EU takes it all.

RobMc59

davedanon wrote: »

'Faceless panel'. What utter nonsense. And fishing is such a tiny industry economically that it shows that Brexit is all about symbolism and not substance. The UK will have to make a deal on fishing because they'll have no market for what they catch if they don't. The EU takes it all.

All this has been said before but no one has managed to explain why if fishing is so insignificant(as is constantly claimed here)to the EU why are so many EU countries worried about access to UK fishing grounds?
The fishing industry maybe a small industry in the UK but its very important to EU countries and attempting to lessen that importance is disingenuous imo.

Seth Brundle

RobMc59 wrote: »

Fishing is one area where the EU needs to get real and it's not unreasonable to want to make your own rules and laws ,not be told what to do by some faceless panel in Brussels.

In what way are the EU not being real?
Why do you feel the UK should be allowed to make demands but the Eu is a bully if it does the same?
What faceless panel?

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

All this has been said before but no one has managed to explain why if fishing is so insignificant(as is constantly claimed here)to the EU why are so many EU countries worried about access to UK fishing grounds?
The fishing industry maybe a small industry in the UK but its very important to EU countries and attempting to lessen that importance is disingenuous imo.

Of course it is significant to the people directly involved, the insignificance comes in relation to the overall.

Just as damage to Ireland is largely insignificant to the entire EU, but it is highly significant to Ireland.

But it comes down to choices. Are the EU going to undermine it very core just to get some access to fishing waters, particularly when the UK seek the majority of that fish to the EU anyay and as such the UK needs access to the EU?

Does it makes sense to trade away access to the single market in exchange for a yearly review of fishing rights? No. Are the Uk willing to sign up to a yearly review of the trade deal, because that is what they are asking for in terms of fishing, that they have complete control and the EU must renogiate every year.

Padre_Pio

RobMc59 wrote: »

All this has been said before but no one has managed to explain why if fishing is so insignificant(as is constantly claimed here)to the EU why are so many EU countries worried about access to UK fishing grounds?
The fishing industry maybe a small industry in the UK but its very important to EU countries and attempting to lessen that importance is disingenuous imo.

0.1% of GDP. A nothing, a drop in the ocean

It's funny to see them talk about the poor Cornish fishermen who have been done out of a catch (they haven't) while ignoring the nearly £1 billion that Cornwall has been given by the EU over the past 20 years.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

All this has been said before but no one has managed to explain why if fishing is so insignificant(as is constantly claimed here)to the EU why are so many EU countries worried about access to UK fishing grounds?
The fishing industry maybe a small industry in the UK but its very important to EU countries and attempting to lessen that importance is disingenuous imo.

Are they worried?

Junkyard Tom

Experience_day wrote: »

You really want our biggest partners with huge access to waters and one of the only credible militaries against Russian aggression to just walk away with closed borders?

England/London would have the most to lose from this. Scotland would go followed by unification of Ireland and then England/Wales would be as good as encircled by pro-EU states.





Geography is destiny.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Are they worried?

Are the EU worried?-Id say they're very worried.
Pointing out that fishing is something the UK can use as leverage in negotiations and I believe the EU will compromise has resulted in me being accused of jingoism and trolling today which is untrue-I don't say that to annoy anyone,I think it's a reasonable,realistic point of view.

theological

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

England/London would have the most to lose from this. Scotland would go followed by unification of Ireland and then England/Wales would be as good as encircled by pro-EU states.

Geography is destiny.

Lose what? I don't think anyone seriously thinks that the EU is a military threat to the UK, or that the military partnerships that the UK has with many other EU countries in NATO is likely to end anytime soon.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

Are the EU worried?-Id say they're very worried.
Pointing out that fishing is something the UK can use as leverage in negotiations and I believe the EU will compromise has resulted in me being accused of jingoism and trolling today which is untrue-I don't say that to annoy anyone,I think it's a reasonable,realistic point of view.

That's just the disproven German car manufacturers argument in another guise to me.

If you have actual evidence that this is a crucial issue for the EU do feel free to post it.

Padre_Pio

RobMc59 wrote: »

Are the EU worried?-Id say they're very worried.
Pointing out that fishing is something the UK can use as leverage in negotiations and I believe the EU will compromise has resulted in me being accused of jingoism and trolling today which is untrue-I don't say that to annoy anyone,I think it's a reasonable,realistic point of view.

On a GDP scale, fishing is nothing to either the UK or EU. The issue is that British waters are huge and north to Norway and west to Iceland. So EU fishing industry would be greatly affected. But many other industries will be affected, and Brits still need to sell fish, so on the whole, it's a minor battle.

Importantly IMO, it's one of the few battles the Brits may win, so they're bigging it up.

RobMc59

Seth Brundle wrote: »

In what way are the EU not being real?
Why do you feel the UK should be allowed to make demands but the Eu is a bully if it does the same?
What faceless panel?

So you see the UK wanting to make it's own laws as 'making demands'?
The saying 'get up the yard'spings to mind.

theological

RobMc59 wrote: »

So you see the UK wanting to make it's own laws as 'making demands'?
The saying 'get up the yard'spings to mind.

The cheek of the UK for wanting the same level of sovereignty over its own affairs as Canada and Australia have...

The reasoning of some on here is unbelievable. It is like how dareth thou question the holiest EU on anything?

Padre_Pio

RobMc59 wrote: »

So you see the UK wanting to make it's own laws as 'making demands'?
The saying 'get up the yard'spings to mind.

It's all about give and take. No man is an island.

ancapailldorcha

theological wrote: »

The cheek of the UK for wanting the same level of sovereignty over its own affairs as Canada and Australia have...

The reasoning of some on here is unbelievable. It is like how dareth thou question the holiest EU on anything?

I'm going to take that as a tacit acknowledgement that you know full well that nobody here is fawning over the EU.

It's perfectly reasonable that this xenophobic little Englander narrative be questioned and scrutinised.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's just the disproven German car manufacturers argument in another guise to me.

If you have actual evidence that this is a crucial issue for the EU do feel free to post it.

Barnier amongst others(France and Holland especially)are constantly talking about fishing access which indicates it is important imo.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

Barnier amongst others(France and Holland especially)are constantly talking about fishing access which indicates it is important imo.

Just means that it's politically important, not economically. Frankly, it's ridiculous that it's been afforded this level of prominence. Modern countries do not base their economies on fishing.

theological

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm going to take that as a tacit acknowledgement that you know full well that nobody here is fawning over the EU.

I'm solidly convinced that the vast majority of people here are fawning over the EU. Insisting that it is unreasonable for the UK to regain a similar level of control to Canada or Australia is an example of how far people are willing to bend over backwards to justify the EU's demands in these negotiations.

I noticed your edit also. As a non-patriotic Irish person, it's a bit odd that you're insinuating my viewpoint is Little Englander xenophobia, but I'll attribute that to a hang up of yours rather than mine. You don't have to be a Little Englander to point out that there are problems with the EU.

ancapailldorcha

theological wrote: »

I'm solidly convinced that the vast majority of people are fawning over the EU. Insisting that it is unreasonable for the UK to regain a similar level of control to Canada or Australia is an example of how far people are willing to bend over backwards to justify the EU's demands in these negotiations.

Plenty of us at it but you can't quote a single post.

I think it's best that I place you on ignore as you've just been repeating the same empty sloganeering since the referendum.

theological

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Plenty of us at it but you can't quote a single post.

I think it's best that I place you on ignore as you've just been repeating the same empty sloganeering since the referendum.

Enjoy the echo chamber!

It's a real shame that you just want to read what those in agreement with you say. It's quite a narrow way of viewing the world.

Padre_Pio

theological wrote: »

Enjoy the echo chamber!

Still waiting on any evidence that the UK will do well out of Brexit.

Plenty saying it, none showing it.

ancapailldorcha

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Still waiting on any evidence that the UK will do well out of Brexit.

Plenty saying it, none showing it.

I've adopted a mercenary mindset to it at this stage. I have a current EU passport so I can leave when it suits me. I just want to see the series finale at this stage though the most likely outcome I can see is some sort of close alignment deal that will permit continued negotiations in the years ahead.

Most people here seem to just want to get on with it now. The flag-waving little Englander jingoists are just an embarassing minority.

Professor Moriarty

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I've adopted a mercenary mindset to it at this stage. I have a current EU passport so I can leave when it suits me. I just want to see the series finale at this stage though the most likely outcome I can see is some sort of close alignment deal that will permit continued negotiations in the years ahead.

Most people here seem to just want to get on with it now. The flag-waving little Englander jingoists are just an embarassing minority.

They haven't a clue. A poll from 10 days ago:

When is the deadline for ratifying a deal with the EU?

Before Dec 2020 - 10%
December 2020 - 37%

All good so far... but wait...

2021 - 13%
2022 or later - 10%
There is no deadline - 5%
Don't know - 25%

RobMc59

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Still waiting on any evidence that the UK will do well out of Brexit.

Plenty saying it, none showing it.

How can anyone provide evidence for an event that hasn't happened yet?

Padre_Pio

RobMc59 wrote: »

How can anyone provide evidence for an event that hasn't happened yet?

So the government and academia have these things called economists, and their job is to make predictions given current circumstances.

Granted they can be hit and miss, but there's plenty of predictions that the UK economy will fall to varying degrees.

None that the economy will do well, in the short or long term (bar one or two discredited ones from conservative pro-Brexit think tanks)

A quick Google of "UK economy after Brexit" shows stories with titles including the words "Crisis, Peril, Devastation, Catastrophic, Frightening and Soften the Blow"
I didn't look beyond page 1.

timetogo1

RobMc59 wrote: »

How can anyone provide evidence for an event that hasn't happened yet?

Brexit happened in January.

RobMc59

timetogo1 wrote: »

Brexit happened in January.

Until the transition period ends the UK is still aligned with the EU.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

Until the transition period ends the UK is still aligned with the EU.

And if they remain in any way aligned does that mean that 2021 isn't really Brexit either?

Again, on the 'its unfair that people are claiming it is unfair for UK to make demands' nobody is saying that.

People are pointing out that the UK seem to believe that they alone are allowed to make demands, whilst any demands from the EU are them bullying and trying to force the UK back into the EU.

The EU have a set of rules, they have set out, from the very outset, the options available to the UK. The UK could have concluded everything years ago by selecting one of the options.

But they wanted their own unique deal because if their importance. So the EU said that's cool, but that very importance means we have to place additional demands on any negotiations to protect outselves.

The UK seemed to completely put off by this, with claims of bullying, the EU being undemocratic.

So it all goes back to choices. The UK have set out that they want an annual reneogitation of fishing access, completely on their terms. EU are saying that they see fishing as important as well but see that condition as totally unworkable and unreasonable and want to give access to their market, in part on condition of full continued access to the waters.

The UK have decided that this is one of their trump cards and so are playing hardball, as a poster said it is likely that this is a compromise they can look like they won and so it makes sense to raise it to the level it is. The problem is what is countries like France, Holland et take the same view? Then the UK faces losing all access to the EU tariff free as well as al the other 3rd countries they currently enjoy for what is nothing more than a political and media point.

declanflynn

Aegir wrote: »

Yes it can. Because it imports a lot of food produce (and exports a lot as well) that doesn’t mean it can’t feed itself, only that it chooses not to.

britian is a net importer of food!