Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

fash

theological wrote: »

For trading into the EU market, yes.

That's something I'm OK with in exchange for increased control in the areas that matter.

I'm not claiming that there are no downsides to leaving the EU. I just think that the benefits are greater than the drawbacks at this point.

Not from a financial perspective clearly - The UK government's own predictions show a nearly 10% drop in the UK GDP - and that was before the multiplier effect from covid.
It also fails to consider the other losses: the reduction in political and diplomatic power, the loss of the Galileo satellite system, the loss of freedom of movement rights etc. etc.

But again, we've been through all these sorts of arguments before, and I'm not sure much value is going to be gained in rehashing it.

Brexit isn't about the UK gaining control over what happens in the EU. It is about gaining more control over domestic policy.

Will it have greater control? If it wants a deal with the US, it will have almost no control over food standards and whatever residual control over trade agreements with third parties that the US deigns to leave it.

declanflynn

Aegir wrote: »

Somewhere between zero and **** all.

Cornish independence seems to be a wet dream for a few Gaelic nationalists in Ireland and no where else.

Wouldnt be so sure about that mate, I think they have a sizeable minority that want independence.
The Cornish Nationalists even won a few seats on the local council

declanflynn

Aegir wrote: »

Somewhere between zero and **** all.

Cornish independence seems to be a wet dream for a few Gaelic nationalists in Ireland and no where else.

There is a a sizeable number in Yorkshire that also want independence from tory england.
Over 100,000 northerners signed a change.org petition calling for the north of england to be part of Scotland.
We knew there were 3 big cracks in the the uk but when you dig deeper there are a lot of smaller cracks that will get bigger when the Brexit recession takes hold

declanflynn

fash wrote: »

Indeed- it is quite extraordinary given how undemocratic the UK is with its FPTP voting system, safe seats, an unelected house of lords, an unelected head of state in control of a theocracy, an unwritten constitution not worth the paper it's written on and a mass media system converted into a weaponising propaganda machine- really really wants and needs a small group of Tories without any limitations or controls to make rules and hand out government concessions - and how this is so much better than having it done in an actual democratic, technocratic and relatively impartial system.
Quite bizarre

A no deal Brexit mite help focus the minds of Brits on some of the above problems, but giving the average brit a bigger say in running his country mite not be a good idea when 17m of them voted to leave the most successful trading block in the world, perfering new deals with the likes of The Faroe islands and kosovo

Donald Trump

Aegir wrote: »

Somewhere between zero and **** all.

Cornish independence seems to be a wet dream for a few Gaelic nationalists in Ireland and no where else.

I don't know man.



I'd say those people in Cornwall will eventually realise how "anti-democratic" it is for them to have their rules dictated to them by people all the way in London. Unelected bureaucrats there making their laws.


Not to mention the people of Cornwall are forced to accept freedom of movement from all across the UK. I heard that there were a few lifetime dole-heads in Cornwall who "realised" that if it had not been for a few Londoners who bought a holiday cottage in their village, those lifetime dolers would likely have become doctors when they left school 40 years ago.


And the Cornwall people don't have any say over how many English fishermen can invade their waters and take their fish.



Surely the obvious thing for them to do is to regain sovereignty by declaring independence from, and then doing a "reasonable trade deal" with, the rest of the UK. "Reasonable" meaning they can pick and chose the parts of the previous status quo if and when it suits them.



Why wouldn't they want independence given all that! They'd make a fortune with all the inward investment of companies and institutions that could base themselves there in a veritable wild-west, in the sense of regulation, but still have complete access to the UK market. And we have to assume that the UK would be stupid reasonable enough to allow that? No


I might do the same in Ireland. Buy up a couple of hundred acres, declare independence/sovereignty but keep full access to the rest of the country. Then I'll invite companies in to set up and develop operations here. They won't need to worry about planning or environmental issues or even pesky health and safety or employee rights in my sovereign nation!

declanflynn

declanflynn wrote: »

Wouldnt be so sure about that mate, I think they have a sizeable minority that want independence.
The Cornish Nationalists even won a few seats on the local council

you can think what you like, it still isn't so. There is more chance of Cork getting their independent republic and freedom from Dublin rule than there is of Cornwall becoming an independent country.

declanflynn wrote: »

There is a a sizeable number in Yorkshire that also want independence from tory england.
Over 100,000 northerners signed a change.org petition calling for the north of england to be part of Scotland.
We knew there were 3 big cracks in the the uk but when you dig deeper there are a lot of smaller cracks that will get bigger when the Brexit recession takes hold

no, 100,000 people of unknown origin signed an open petition.

J Mysterio

https://twitter.com/JonJonesSnr/status/1279661403574591492?s=20

declanflynn

Aegir wrote: »

you can think what you like, it still isn't so. There is more chance of Cork getting their independent republic and freedom from Dublin rule than there is of Cornwall becoming an independent country.



no, 100,000 people of unknown origin signed an open petition.

The ould brexiteer/trump reply to something they dont like - it's fake news and quickly move on

declanflynn

J Mysterio wrote: »

https://twitter.com/JonJonesSnr/status/1279661403574591492?s=20

It could be something to do with the low IQ of the average brit

RasTa

I was hoping Greece would make an example of him for breaking lockdown rules(if there are any)

declanflynn

declanflynn wrote: »

The ould brexiteer/trump reply to something they dont like - it's fake news and quickly move on

great reply. clearly shows you were clutching at straws and having been shown the flaws in your argument, resort to random comments about Brexiteers and trump.

Bravo.

declanflynn

Aegir wrote: »

great reply. clearly shows you were clutching at straws and having been shown the flaws in your argument, resort to random comments about Brexiteers and trump.

Bravo.

Hows those negotiations on a trade deal with China going?

Tokyo

declanflynn wrote: »

It could be something to do with the low IQ of the average brit

Mod: Don't post in the thread again.

joeguevara

Is the thoughts that Covid will change how any trade discussion will be handled. Resources that would have been allocated will now be needed elsewhere. Local trade will be given priority. The buy local mantra will be the most heard. Or could it be the opposite?

Peregrinus

The thought, certainly on the EU side, is that Covid will make the UK more keen to get a trade deal. Covid-19 is going to result in considerable economic pain in the UK, and adding Brexit-related pain on top of that is going to be politically costly. They don't want to be facing headlines next year like "Why Johnson's Brexit cost you your job".

It's only a few weeks since the UK was posturing about possibly withdrawing from the trade talks entirely if there wasn't good progress by June. That particular thought has been quietly buried in a deep hole somewhere. Simlarly you hear a lot less guff, even from the ERG types, about the wonders of a "WTO deal". Some of the fanboys in the Twitterverse haven't got the memo about the new party line just yet, but none of the Brexit leadership are bulling on about it any more.

So the EU's take on this is that Johnson does want to do a deal, and he wants to do it quickly - as in, in time for the end of transition on 31 December. He fully understands that his options are limited and that getting such a deal requires a substantial cave on his part. But he has the scope to cave - his unassailable majority means he is not beholden to the ERG. And, because the UK has no fixed trade policy, few declared objectives, and no global trade strategy against which any deal could be measured, there's a kind of freedom in that to agree to almost anything at all.

So he will do what he has to do to get a deal that will minimise Brexit-related economic dislocation. When it happens it will happen quickly. Johnson will distract attention from the contents of the deal by pointing to the concessions he has won - he will win some - and to the impressive speed with which an apparently bogged-down process was brought to a successful conclusion.

joeguevara

This is the worst case scenario for the UK. Imagine pulling out of the European medicine agency and then vaccines are required.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/14/coronavirus-vaccine-delays-brexit-ema-expensive

dd973

declanflynn wrote: »

There is a a sizeable number in Yorkshire that also want independence from tory england.
Over 100,000 northerners signed a change.org petition calling for the north of england to be part of Scotland.
We knew there were 3 big cracks in the the uk but when you dig deeper there are a lot of smaller cracks that will get bigger when the Brexit recession takes hold

Everyone makes the assumption here, particularly if they've never lived across the water that every child born there is a Tory wrapped in a Butcher's Apron at birth, the corrupt FPTP voting system gives a totally inaccurate picture of the population in the U.K. The Tories are finished in Scotland and they will be again in the North of England once realisation sets in they were hoodwinked and sold a pup in Brexit.

RobMc59

fash wrote: »

Indeed- it is quite extraordinary given how undemocratic the UK is with its FPTP voting system, safe seats, an unelected house of lords, an unelected head of state in control of a theocracy, an unwritten constitution not worth the paper it's written on and a mass media system converted into a weaponising propaganda machine- really really wants and needs a small group of Tories without any limitations or controls to make rules and hand out government concessions - and how this is so much better than having it done in an actual democratic, technocratic and relatively impartial system.
Quite bizarre

Even more extraordinary that you should lecture about the UK,a country that has unveiled plans to freeze assets and ban visas of foreign state sponsored criminals and has offered three million Hong Kong residents UK citizenship whilst Ireland continues with its universally condemned tax loopholes for the international fatcats which sees ordinary Irish people paying more tax than multi billion dollar companies.

Junkyard Tom

RobMc59 wrote: »

the UK, a country that has unveiled plans to freeze assets and ban visas of foreign state sponsored criminals

According to anti-Mafia Journalist Roberto Saviano:

The financial services industry based in the City of London facilitates a system that makes the UK the most corrupt nation in the world ... Ninety per cent of the owners of capital in London have their headquarters offshore ... Leaving the EU means allowing the Qatari societies, the Mexican cartels, the Russia Mafia to gain even more power..

Source

A federal EU is, in my view, essential to push back against the type of parasitic corruption that London's financial systems seems to facilitate.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

Even more extraordinary that you should lecture about the UK,a country that has unveiled plans to freeze assets and ban visas of foreign state sponsored criminals and has offered three million Hong Kong residents UK citizenship whilst Ireland continues with its universally condemned tax loopholes for the international fatcats which sees ordinary Irish people paying more tax than multi billion dollar companies.

Do you have anything to add besides the whataboutery?

Johnson never offered citizenship. He offered British Nationals Overseas status which offers a path to citizenship of the UK to the people of Hong Kong.

Seth Brundle

RobMc59 wrote: »

Even more extraordinary that you should lecture about the UK,a country that has unveiled plans to freeze assets and ban visas of foreign state sponsored criminals and has offered three million Hong Kong residents UK citizenship

I'll see your Hong Kong and raise you Windrush!

RobMc59 wrote: »

whilst Ireland continues with its universally condemned tax loopholes for the international fatcats which sees ordinary Irish people paying more tax than multi billion dollar companies.

Just like the UK and many other countries then :rolleyes:

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Do you have anything to add besides the whataboutery?

Johnson never offered citizenship. He offered British Nationals Overseas status which offers a path to citizenship of the UK to the people of Hong Kong.

I realise the thread title but when the pot is calling the kettle black what do you expect?-An echo chamber?And by the way I can`t stand johnson or his cronies but offering to help Hong Kong citizens is the right thing to do imo.Britain does`nt have the clout it once had but at least it`s trying to do the right thing.

fash

RobMc59 wrote: »

Even more extraordinary that you should lecture about the UK,a country that has unveiled plans to freeze assets and ban visas of foreign state sponsored criminals and has offered three million Hong Kong residents UK citizenship whilst Ireland continues with its universally condemned tax loopholes for the international fatcats which sees ordinary Irish people paying more tax than multi billion dollar companies.

Firstly, I have to say that it's rather amusing receiving a lecture on tax-haven-hood from a citizen of the country in control of British Virgin Islands,Gibraltar, Jersey, Bermuda, Cayman Islands - and the city of London etc etc. - literally "the world’s greatest enabler of corporate tax avoidance" : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/28/uk-and-territories-are-greatest-enabler-of-tax-avoidance-study-says
a citizen of a country controlled by "fat cats" which is not a functional democracy, which had different rules for the rulers and another for the ruled and which is the most socially unequal country in Europe.

As regards the UK's plan to freeze assets : big whoop. A tiny meaningless island with an emerging market currency threatens to freeze criminal assets. There was a time when the Skibbereen Eagle journal threatened the Russian Czar that it would keep its eye on him. Even they would have been embarrassed at the level of hubris displayed by the UK government though.

fash

fash wrote: »

Firstly, I have to say that it's rather amusing receiving a lecture on tax-haven-hood from a citizen of the country in control of British Virgin Islands,Gibraltar, Jersey, Bermuda, Cayman Islands - and the city of London etc etc. - literally "the world’s greatest enabler of corporate tax avoidance" .

That must be why the U.K. government is appealing to the Eu court on behalf of Apple then?

The U.K. has no more control of the tax affairs of any of those countries than the Eu does over the tax affairs of each member country. It simply isn’t part of the competence.

RobMc59

fash wrote: »

Firstly, I have to say that it's rather amusing receiving a lecture on tax-haven-hood from a citizen of the country in control of British Virgin Islands,Gibraltar, Jersey, Bermuda, Cayman Islands - and the city of London etc etc. - literally "the world’s greatest enabler of corporate tax avoidance" : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/28/uk-and-territories-are-greatest-enabler-of-tax-avoidance-study-says
a citizen of a country controlled by "fat cats" which is not a functional democracy, which had different rules for the rulers and another for the ruled and which is the most socially unequal country in Europe.

As regards the UK's plan to freeze assets : big whoop. A tiny meaningless island with an emerging market currency threatens to freeze criminal assets. There was a time when the Skibbereen Eagle journal threatened the Russian Czar that it would keep its eye on him. Even they would have been embarrassed at the level of hubris displayed by the UK government though.

Its common knowledge even Brussels is unhappy with the tax deals Ireland is offering to fatcat foreign corporations.Unless you're squeaky clean you really shouldn't point the finger,your hypocrisy is stunning.

Leroy42

Lets not forget this is the same government that refuses to publish a report into Russian money being paid into the party coffers.

That refused to fire a minister recently that forced through planning permission to save a developer extra millions.

Whilst this move is to be welcomed, see it for what it is. It is yet another 'look over there' moment

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

I realise the thread title but when the pot is calling the kettle black what do you expect?-An echo chamber?And by the way I can`t stand johnson or his cronies but offering to help Hong Kong citizens is the right thing to do imo.Britain does`nt have the clout it once had but at least it`s trying to do the right thing.

Johnson has not offered them citizenship, they've been offered a path to citizenship. The distinction is important, especially given the Tories' hostile environment policy.

Pot calling the kettle black? What are you talking about? The thread is about the UK.

fash

RobMc59 wrote: »

Its common knowledge even Brussels is unhappy with the tax deals Ireland is offering to fatcat foreign corporations.Unless you're squeaky clean you really shouldn't point the finger,your hypocrisy is stunning.

I would first note your rather nauseating tone .
I secondly note the rather silly emotive nonsense words like "fatcat" "foreign" corporations - sounds like someone has been soaking in the Express rather more than is good for one's grasp on reality. Should we expect you to begin referring to "filthy Frogs" "damn Krauts" next? Sounds like a lot of Brexit kool-aid is being drunk.

As regards the statement that one must be "squeaky clean" to comment - where did that nonsense idea come from? Not even Jesus was squeaky clean - and (let's assume he was real etc.) you would tell him to shut the hell up? Pope Francis who I'm sure told lies as a child shouldn't express disappointment to China about the forced sterilisation and concentration camps for Uighurs? Your argument is ludicrous nonsense. Seriously though, it is actually embarrassing.


Turning to the topic of tax evasion/tax avoidance, I am sure you can agree that the tax evasion promoting behaviour of the UK is on a several orders of magnitude greater scale than that engaged by Ireland - and in particular assists and is designed to assist some of the most corrupt and despicable people on earth - various corrupt Brits, Middle Eastern despots, shady Russian oligarchs etc. as well as "fatcat foreign" (and even not foreign!) corporations. Ireland's small scale and rather pathetic attempts to emulate the UK in relation to the most respectable of those categories certainly does not stop me from condemning the UK's history of genocide, racism, slavery, corruption, murder, war and enforcing misery on the world.

McGiver

RobMc59 wrote:

Its common knowledge even Brussels is unhappy with the tax deals Ireland is offering to fatcat foreign corporations.Unless you're squeaky clean you really shouldn't point the finger,your hypocrisy is stunning.

The UK with its corporate tax haven network is by far the world’s greatest enabler of corporate tax avoidance and has single-handedly done the most to break down the global corporate tax system, accounting for over a third of the world’s corporate tax avoidance risks as measured by the Corporate Tax Haven Index. That’s four times more than the next greatest contributor of corporate tax avoidance risks, the Netherlands, which accounts for less than 7 per cent.

Nearly 14 per cent of foreign direct investment reported by the International Monetary Fund – over $6 trillion – is booked in the UK network, where the lowest available corporate tax rates averaged 1.73 per cent.

Of the 10 jurisdictions whose tax systems received the highest corporate tax haven scores for enabling corporate tax avoidance, 8 are part of the UK network: the British Virgin Islands, Bermuda, the Cayman Islands, the Isle of Man, Turks and Caicos, Anguilla, Jersey, and Guernsey.

Yes, Ireland is a leading tax haven (BEPS) but firstly doesn't do offshore finance that much (i. e. siphoning criminals' and despots' money) and focuses on mostly tech and pharma multinationals, and secondly compared to the UK it's a small fish - UK maintains a whole network of tax havens and OFCs.

The argument that one has to be perfect to be allowed to criticise someone else's imperfections is ridiculous. No critique would be ever possible.

And we're of course in UK-Brexit thread not in an Irish tax policy thread...so one would expect criticism directed at the UK to be common enough.

First Up

McGiver wrote: »

Yes, Ireland is a leading tax haven (BEPS) but firstly doesn't do offshore finance that much (i. e. siphoning criminals' and despots' money) and focuses on mostly tech and pharma multinationals, and secondly compared to the UK it's a small fish - UK maintains a whole network of tax havens and OFCs.

The argument that one has to be perfect to be allowed to criticise someone else's imperfections is ridiculous. No critique would be ever possible.

And we're of course in UK-Brexit thread not in an Irish tax policy thread...so one would expect criticism directed at the UK to be common enough.

Having a low tax rate does not make a country a tax haven. Creative accounting (BEPS) needs to be dealt with internationally and the OECD is working on that.