Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

McGiver

davedanon wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/28/brexit-will-deliver-double-shock-to-uk-economy-study-finds-coronavirus


"A Brexit hit is looming for sectors that have emerged relatively unscathed from the Covid-19 pandemic, new data has showed.

A report from the London School of Economics says Brexit will deliver a double shock to the economy – with worsening business conditions for those sectors that have survived the impact of coronavirus and lockdown measures – whether Boris Johnson secures a deal with the EU or not."

Fake news! Project Fear. Remainer Conspiracy. The bulldog spirit. We've survived WW2. Keep calm and carry on. Hail Britannia!

ambro25

theological wrote: »

If that was actually the only downside of EU membership, I might agree with you.

It is still very fortunate that the UK got out of the coronavirus fund and having to borrow an estimated £55bn for it.

There are many ways to assist, not all require saddling yourself with a large amount of debt to give to others.

There are indeed, and one such alternative way would have been e.g. to partake in the collective EU27 effort, to leverage still further influence and purchasing power on global healthcare markets.

Sadly, a deadline was missed by the UK. Or an email was received but unreceived, or wrongly addressed. Or something.

:pac:

The EU27 dodged a bullet, to be frank. I'm happy if Leavers see their advantage in it too.

More dodging required (but that's already safely in hand with Barnier) in view of the current Brexit negotiations' "ground zero" of state aid, which Cummings is reportedly pushing (back? forward? sideways?) towards a feodalist kleptocracy model (London-controlled, no regulator).

CelticRambler

theological wrote: »

It is still very fortunate that the UK got out of the coronavirus fund and having to borrow an estimated £55bn for it.

There are many ways to assist, not all require saddling yourself with a large amount of debt to give to others.

Wouldn't that be exactly an argument in favour of England shedding it's parasitic provincial kingdoms of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? And yet there was some bloke telling us only last week that unity was a good thing and the provincials shouldn't be getting so uppity? :P

RobMc59

I don't mind paying a bit more tax to help my country get back on its feet from coronavirus and the financial hit we've taken.
Please excuse my blunt language but I'd be pissed off having to pay for other countries that basically just couldn't be arsed to manage their finances responsibly.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

I don't mind paying a bit more tax to help my country get back on its feet from coronavirus and the financial hit we've taken.
Please excuse my blunt language but I'd be pissed off having to pay for other countries that basically just couldn't be arsed to manage their finances responsibly.

It's that sort of petty miserliness that's led to the UK trashing itself on the world stage and heading for a recession that they themselves made. With that attitude, the EU might be better off than the UK.

davedanon

RobMc59 wrote: »

I don't mind paying a bit more tax to help my country get back on its feet from coronavirus and the financial hit we've taken.
Please excuse my blunt language but I'd be pissed off having to pay for other countries that basically just couldn't be arsed to manage their finances responsibly.

Were you happy when we got money from the EU back when we were poorer? Structural funds and so forth? Motorways and so on got built. Would you have preferred if the Dutch said, "Nah, **** the Irish, feckless lazy wasters"?

davedanon

Whereas, now that we're one of the richest countries in the world, the investment made by Germany, Netherlands etc in us and other peripheral EU countries has made everyone collectively richer.

But maybe your zero-sum mentality would have worked better.

RobMc59

davedanon wrote: »

Were you happy when we got money from the EU back when we were poorer? Structural funds and so forth? Motorways and so on got built. Would you have preferred if the Dutch said, "Nah, **** the Irish, feckless lazy wasters"?

I'm British.I do realise Ireland has prospered as part of the EU,its a different place from the Ireland I first encountered forty years ago. The countries that need bailing out have been irresponsible,which was never the case with Ireland.

ohnonotgmail

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm British.I do realise Ireland has prospered as part of the EU,its a different place from the Ireland I first encountered forty years ago. The countries that need bailing out have been irresponsible,which was never the case with Ireland.

we needed a bank bailout because our banks behaved completely irresponsibly and the government at the time let them do it.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

The countries that need bailing out have been irresponsible,which was never the case with Ireland.

Have you a source for this?

RobMc59

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

we needed a bank bailout because our banks behaved completely irresponsibly and the government at the time let them do it.

Fair enough, that would be a reason for Ireland to be more sympathetic.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

Fair enough, that would be a reason for Ireland to be more sympathetic.

This fund is not simply to give money back to certain countries, it is designed to relaunch the economies of those countries. To help get people back to work, re-investment, business loans and grants for adjustments to the new normal.

And the idea, as it is with the entire EU, is that if each country is improving then all other countries benefit to some extent.

Is it in Irelands interests to help Spain deal with the virus so that tourism can be restarted? From a simple economic standpoint no it doesn't, but for our citizens to be able to travel, for consumers over there to buy our products, ther are a number of benefits.

But in any case I refer back to the recent WA whereon UK had to conceded to EU demands about the border in NI. Given some of the comments made from the UK I very much doubt that Ireland could have achieved the same result working on our own. The collective power of the EU gave us significant benefits.

Brexit seems to have given the UK the ability to see the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Seth Brundle

Leroy42 wrote: »

But in any case I refer back to the recent WA whereon UK had to conceded to EU demands about the border in NI. Given some of the comments made from the UK I very much doubt that Ireland could have achieved the same result working on our own. The collective power of the EU gave us significant benefits.

Remember though, there was backing from the USA when they threatened the UK with no deal if they reneged on the GFA.
Ireland has some powerful friends around the world. Has the UK any friends apart from Russia?

Leroy42 wrote: »

Brexit seems to have given the UK the ability to see the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

I'd disagree somewhat with that. They see the costs of what they want to see. They refuse to see any long term costs from leaving a wealthy market of 450 million people right on their doorstep for example.

ohnonotgmail

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Remember though, there was backing from the USA when they threatened the UK with no deal if they reneged on the GFA.
Ireland has some powerful friends around the world. Has the UK any friends apart from Russia?

as the saying goes "with friends like that ..."

c.p.w.g.w

Whats that saying..."a rising tide lifts all boats"

Its to our benefit for our neighbours are in a good place economically...They can buy from us, their citizens can visit us as tourists...Each countries economy is linked to others and its terrible complex...

Sure here in Ireland we are heavily dependent on tourism for employment, if all our neighbours are struggling financially we struggle here...

Very simplistic i know, but accurate none the less

ambro25

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm British.I do realise Ireland has prospered as part of the EU,its a different place from the Ireland I first encountered forty years ago. The countries that need bailing out have been irresponsible,which was never the case with Ireland.

Yeah, the UK is such a paragon of prudential public management.

Over 10 years of austerity budgets slashing services, to the point of state schools crowdfunding parents for bog roll supplies, whilst ministers continuously hire and re-hire virtual nurses and police officers and build dozens of virtual hospitals. And yet the UK national debt is at its highest-ever, before Covid and Brexit have fully hit. Better not talk about HMG's current procurement practices, m'kay? I get confused between their new units of measure, like how many Cummings is it to a Grayling.

I really don't believe the UK is in any position to give lessons on the topic at the moment, no more than it can about democratic processes.

I also hope that R&D in irony-meters comes up with substantial safety improvements, in particular about flame retardation, when we start talking about the UK like it was 2015 Greece, within a few years.

RobMc59

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Remember though, there was backing from the USA when they threatened the UK with no deal if they reneged on the GFA.
Ireland has some powerful friends around the world. Has the UK any friends apart from Russia?


I'd disagree somewhat with that. They see the costs of what they want to see. They refuse to see any long term costs from leaving a wealthy market of 450 million people right on their doorstep for example.

I doubt the UK would have reneged on the GFA and toadying up to a few misty eyed Americans isn't anything to crow about.
If push came to shove who would the US back?

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

I doubt the UK would have reneged on the GFA and toadying up to a few misty eyed Americans isn't anything to crow about.
If push came to shove who would the US back?

We're in full Brexiter mode I see.

The UK has shown nothing but contempt for the Irish and the GFA. They'd have broken it if the EU and the Democrats hadn't stood in their way.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

We're in full Brexiter mode I see.

The UK has shown nothing but contempt for the Irish and the GFA. They'd have broken it if the EU and the Democrats hadn't stood in their way.

I'm not a brexiteer and do care about Ireland.

Donald Trump

RobMc59 wrote: »

I doubt the UK would have reneged on the GFA and toadying up to a few misty eyed Americans isn't anything to crow about.
If push came to shove who would the US back?

I think that you vastly underestimate the weight of "Irish Issues" among some politicians in DC. There is an extremely strong influence there across both sides of the divide.




Do you know how times per year the US President (usually, at least in recent history) goes down the road to the US Capitol buildings?

RobMc59

Donald Trump wrote: »

I think that you vastly underestimate the weight of "Irish Issues" among some politicians in DC. There is an extremely strong influence there across both sides of the divide.




Do you know how times per year the US President (usually, at least in recent history) goes down the road to the US Capitol buildings?

I don't have any problem with US politicians supporting Ireland apart from their support of NORAID.

Donald Trump

RobMc59 wrote: »

I don't have any problem with US politicians supporting Ireland apart from their support of NORAID.

That's nothing got to do with the point.


If "push came to shove" your apparent assumption that the UK would be automatically backed over Ireland might be in for a rude awakening.

Padre_Pio

Donald Trump wrote: »

That's nothing got to do with the point.


If "push came to shove" your apparent assumption that the UK would be automatically backed over Ireland might be in for a rude awakening.

A better question is if push came to shove, would the US support the UK or EU?

ancapailldorcha

Padre_Pio wrote: »

A better question is if push came to shove, would the US support the UK or EU?

Why is it one or the other? It would be if we were talking about the EU or China but we're talking about the world's largest trading bloc and a relatively small country that can be bullied quite easily because it placed itself in a vulnerable position.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why is it one or the other? It would be if we were talking about the EU or China but we're talking about the world's largest trading bloc and a relatively small country that can be bullied quite easily because it placed itself in a vulnerable position.

Well perhaps you should do as it says in the thread title back to the world's largest trading block.

fash

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm not a brexiteer and do care about Ireland.

Yes you are and no you don't.
You should admit both at least to yourself.

davedanon

RobMc59 wrote: »

Well perhaps you should do as it says in the thread title back to the world's largest trading block.

You want the EU to piss off and get on with Brexit?


Even by Brexiter standards that is quite a thing to say.

davedanon

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why is it one or the other? It would be if we were talking about the EU or China but we're talking about the world's largest trading bloc and a relatively small country that can be bullied quite easily because it placed itself in a vulnerable position.

But, but.......the special relationship!!!

RobMc59

davedanon wrote: »

But, but.......the special relationship!!!

It's not me with illusions of grandeur.

fash

RobMc59 wrote: »

It's not me with illusions of grandeur.

The word is "delusions"