Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

Peregrinus

Deleted User wrote: »

This is wishful thinking - first past the post is hard to overturn.
The new middle ground party had up to 11 MPs and lost them all.
UKIP won almost 4 million votes in 2015 and only won one seat, a former tory MP who defected.

Blaming the Lib Dems won't solve it either, change can only come from Labour or the Tories.

Yup. What Brexit shows is that, as in the US, the way to implement a radical programme is not to found a new party and win power; it's to do a reverse takeover of one of the existing major parties. UKIP and the Brexit party never enjoyed much electoral success, and both have now been all but destroyed as effective political organisations, but it doesn't matter since their ideas now dominate the Tory party.

CelticRambler

Leroy42 wrote: »

Not content with the existing borders, they have already mananged to create the requirement for a new border on the Ieish Sea and now it appears that Kent is also going to sectioned off!

Transport Secretary Grant Shapps said [...] “There is at least initially a risk of some additional friction at the border ... ”

So this was the plan all along - to have frictionless trade with the EU by repatriating all the friction to GB? Okay, that sounds reasonable.

Just hope they remember that science (and Neanderthal man) discovered that too much friction can create excessive heat leading to fire. :rolleyes:

steddyeddy

I live in England and I'm amazed at the general ease at which people here accept lies about the EU. I'm particularly stunned by the level of ignorance relating to Irish matters. One example that I have heard a few times is that the EU "used" Ireland as a bargaining tool to "force" the UK to change the withdrawal agreement. It's remarkable that English nationalists have an unusual combination of a superiority complex coupled with a victim complex.

davedanon

steddyeddy wrote: »

I live in England and I'm amazed at the general ease at which people here accept lies about the EU. I'm particularly stunned by the level of ignorance relating to Irish matters. One example that I have heard a few times is that the EU "used" Ireland as a bargaining tool to "force" the UK to change the withdrawal agreement. It's remarkable that English nationalists have an unusual combination of a superiority complex coupled with a victim complex.

Decades of anti-Europe propaganda from the Tory press have created those conditions.

ancapailldorcha

steddyeddy wrote: »

I live in England and I'm amazed at the general ease at which people here accept lies about the EU. I'm particularly stunned by the level of ignorance relating to Irish matters. One example that I have heard a few times is that the EU "used" Ireland as a bargaining tool to "force" the UK to change the withdrawal agreement. It's remarkable that English nationalists have an unusual combination of a superiority complex coupled with a victim complex.

This doesn't surprise me at all. I'm just used to that now.

What gets me are the contradictions inherent in Brexit. I've had older racist Brexity types lecture me about how they knew what they were voting for and whining about having to beg the French president for an extension.

It's the same trash demographic that's a drain on the economy and hurls abuse at Indian, East Asian and African doctors. It has nothing of worth to contribute and it's deeply, deeply insecure.

steddyeddy

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This doesn't surprise me at all. I'm just used to that now.

What gets me are the contradictions inherent in Brexit. I've had older racist Brexity types lecture me about how they knew what they were voting for and whining about having to beg the French president for an extension.

It's the same trash demographic that's a drain on the economy and hurls abuse at Indian, East Asian and African doctors. It has nothing of worth to contribute and it's deeply, deeply insecure.

How do you deal with it? I find it hard not to reply when someone states that the EU has held Britain back from being a global power.

Leroy42

The thing is not reply to prove them wrong, reply with a question to get them to prove themselves right. In many cases you will run into the whole 'I hate the EU laws. Which one's. I dunno, just all of them" type position.

Brexiteers, even those on here, love turning any discussion around onto how bad the EU is, how terrible things are etc. They still haven't been able to put forward anything remotely close to an actual planned outcome.

Sovereignty, or take back control is about as far as they will go. Then simply point out that surely they want votes on the Lords, or future trade deals, or that Scotland and Wales and NI should have more saw etc and they will revert back to type.

ancapailldorcha

steddyeddy wrote: »

How do you deal with it? I find it hard not to reply when someone states that the EU has held Britain back from being a global power.

The people in question were friends of my aunt who lives in anothe part of London.

To be honest, when I disproved their points they just moved onto their lazy generalisations about how feckless and indolent my generation is because we can't buy houses that were less than a tenth of the cost back in their day.

As to how I deal with it, I don't waste my time on people like this when I can help it. I decided not to bother visiting said aunt as her husband had a go as well which is rich given that his own son only gets out of bed at 4pm to play games. Over time, I've learned that such people are not worht words and engaging is just a waste of time.

I work in research and live in an international houseshare. Not a lot of racist, Brexity types there. My friends are all well educated so the same trend repeats there though we did have a Corbyn-voting Brexiter in there for a year. Nice guy but didn't seem to get how the EU doesn't prevent countries having state-run healthcare or how devastating the NHS via Brexit is bad for the NHS.

We also had a bloated Tommy Robinson-type old twit in the house as well. He lasted less than a fortnight before our Mauritian Muslim landlord had to evict him.

breezy1985

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This doesn't surprise me at all. I'm just used to that now.

What gets me are the contradictions inherent in Brexit. I've had older racist Brexity types lecture me about how they knew what they were voting for and whining about having to beg the French president for an extension.

It's the same trash demographic that's a drain on the economy and hurls abuse at Indian, East Asian and African doctors. It has nothing of worth to contribute and it's deeply, deeply insecure.

About a year ago I had a guy in a London pub tell his friend that he can't understand why the Irish still go on and on about the occupation Shure it was 100yrs ago and we should get over it.

Followed 5 minutes later by educating his friend on how the post tiger bust was inevitable because the Irish are too thick to be trusted to run their own country

ancapailldorcha

breezy1985 wrote: »

About a year ago I had a guy in a London pub tell his friend that he can't understand why the Irish still go on and on about the occupation Shure it was 100yrs ago and we should get over it.

Followed 5 minutes later by educating his friend on how the post tiger bust was inevitable because the Irish are too thick to be trusted to run their own country

I've had something similar with lads telling me how we were so fortunate to be "civilised" and how I was "the right kind of immigrant".

davedanon

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I was "the right kind of immigrant".

ie. white and English-speaking.

Donald Trump

Leroy42 wrote: »

Not content with the existing borders, they have already mananged to create the requirement for a new border on the Ieish Sea and now it appears that Kent is also going to sectioned off!

That's because of Clarke being an illegal alien and all that

CelticRambler

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I've had something similar with lads telling me how we were so fortunate to be "civilised" and how I was "the right kind of immigrant".

Ah now that's not just a British thing. Here in France, I regularly get told that I'm not an immigrant, despite my protests to the contrary.

ancapailldorcha

CelticRambler wrote: »

Ah now that's not just a British thing. Here in France, I regularly get told that I'm not an immigrant, despite my protests to the contrary.

I never said that it was.

How is living in France? It's somewhere I think I could live if I spoke French.

davedanon

CelticRambler wrote: »

Ah now that's not just a British thing. Here in France, I regularly get told that I'm not an immigrant, despite my protests to the contrary.

Non-white = immigrant

White = ex-pat

Junkyard Tom

davedanon wrote: »

Decades of anti-Europe propaganda from the Tory press have created those conditions.

Then you have the TV news discussing what's in the press which allows the its owners to set the agenda in supposed impartial outlets like the BBC. The 'EU bad' narrative also permeated out into regular TV programmes.

I was watching a show, Channel Four I think, that included a story about English fishermen feuding with French fishermen and I was thinking 'that's really unfair on the English'. It appeared that very large French trawlers were ramming small English Fishing boats near the Channel islands, that is, until they mentioned it was the large trawlers that were English, the grievance narrative was extraordinary.

Brexit has really displayed the alarming level of influence that a small number of people can have on the public consciousness.

CelticRambler

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

How is living in France? It's somewhere I think I could live if I spoke French.

Not too bad. It'd be grand ... if it wasn't full of French people. :pac:

ancapailldorcha

CelticRambler wrote: »

Not too bad. It'd be grand ... if it wasn't full of French people. :pac:

Yeah, that's the main turn off I have to say. I like the French and their history but do I want to head to the source of all French people? I don't know.

davedanon

CelticRambler wrote: »

Not too bad. It'd be grand ... if it wasn't full of French people. :pac:

Spoken like a true Brexiter gammon.

Peregrinus

CelticRambler wrote: »

Ah now that's not just a British thing. Here in France, I regularly get told that I'm not an immigrant, despite my protests to the contrary.

Are you told that by British people, or by French people?

Because, as far as I can see, in most of Europe EU citizens exercising their free movement rights are not seen or spoken of as immigrants. An "immigrant" comes from outside the EU.

CelticRambler

davedanon wrote: »

Spoken like a true Brexiter gammon.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Are you told that by British people, or by French people?

Because, as far as I can see, in most of Europe EU citizens exercising their free movement rights are not seen or spoken of as immigrants. An "immigrant" comes from outside the EU.

It's the French (I have limited contact with the British in France :rolleyes: ) and yes, it's usually me provoking them, in the context of an outburst of xenophobic ranting against "immigrants", being a euphemism for non-white, non-Christian, non-Frenchmen. But even if I'm legitimately exercising my EU freedoms, I'm still an immigrant who came over, bought a house that could have been occupied by a homeless French family and regularly take jobs that could have been offered to French people.

Incidentally, there was a short report on the morning news here this morning discussing a new wave of Brits moving to France, echoing that German study. The gist (journalistic distortions notwithstanding) was that of middle-aged parents moving now so that their school-age children with no direct ties to continental Europe can acquire French/EU citizenship through the mechanism of five years continuous residence and full-time enrollment in a French educational establishment.

ambro25

Peregrinus wrote: »

Are you told that by British people, or by French people?

Because, as far as I can see, in most of Europe EU citizens exercising their free movement rights are not seen or spoken of as immigrants. An "immigrant" comes from outside the EU.

As an EU citizen exercising my FoM rights for close to 30 years now (of which 25 between the UK & Ireland), son and grandson of eco-migrants before FoM was ever a thing, allow me to disagree.

But it's not the geographically-distinguished thing, which your question suggests. It's socio-educational. And generational.

Today's east european immigrants (indeed), 'qualitatively' distinguished from west europeans immigrants (not often called as such, you are right there), are yesterday's eg "ritals" (French slang, negatively connotated, for Italian immigrants pre-EU/-FoM in the 50s up to the 70s at least) and, tomorrow, amongst those who will decry african-middle eastern refugees (if they don't already, and I have an inkling that many of them do).

I've lost track of how many times I experienced the auld "oh-but-we-don't-mean-you-you're-integrated" casual xenophobism typical of the UK provinces outside London. Ever since I moved there, well over a decade before immigration became the debate that it is now, and Brexit became a thing. And since. From acquaintances, friends and in-law relatives. I witnessed a little of it in Ireland in the 00s. More of it in Belgium than in Germany in the 90s. And about as much of it in France (north east, rich in multiculturalist backgrounds due to pits & steelworks over the ages, but generally poor since the 80s, with a receptivity to populist 'othering' to match the local socio-economic context) as in the UK.

davedanon

Latest Chris Grey...

https://twitter.com/chrisgreybrexit/status/1290536400681676800

davedanon

Oops, that's a tweet of his linked in the blog. Here's the proper link.



https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/

otnomart

Brits resident in the EU post Brexit to be given extra free movement rights
-need to prove five years of continuous residence in the bloc
-25 of 27 EU countries will differentiate between those who have spent five or more years in the bloc and those who haven’t by using the biometric residence cards issued for British nationals. The other two EU countries, which the Commission did not name, are considering an alternative method of demonstrating 5-year residency.
Source: https://www.politico.eu/article/brits-resident-in-eu-after-brexit-to-get-extra-free-movement-rights/

Padre_Pio

otnomart wrote: »

Brits resident in the EU post Brexit to be given extra free movement rights
-need to prove five years of continuous residence in the bloc
-25 of 27 EU countries will differentiate between those who have spent five or more years in the bloc and those who haven’t by using the biometric residence cards issued for British nationals. The other two EU countries, which the Commission did not name, are considering an alternative method of demonstrating 5-year residency.
Source: https://www.politico.eu/article/brits-resident-in-eu-after-brexit-to-get-extra-free-movement-rights/

That's fair enough.

If you're living in the EU for 5 years before now, you should have some security and stability.

davedanon

otnomart wrote: »

Brits resident in the EU post Brexit to be given extra free movement rights
-need to prove five years of continuous residence in the bloc
-25 of 27 EU countries will differentiate between those who have spent five or more years in the bloc and those who haven’t by using the biometric residence cards issued for British nationals. The other two EU countries, which the Commission did not name, are considering an alternative method of demonstrating 5-year residency.
Source: https://www.politico.eu/article/brits-resident-in-eu-after-brexit-to-get-extra-free-movement-rights/

What is the UK's policy on the issue? Are they going to reciprocate?

davedanon

davedanon wrote: »

What is the UK's policy on the issue? Are they going to reciprocate?

I would guess Eu citizens living in the UK will also have the freedom to move around the UK.

Leroy42

Aegir wrote: »

I would guess Eu citizens living in the UK will also have the freedom to move around the UK.

unless they want to drive a truck into Kent or bring goods from NI to GB. Although that seems to be for everyone not just EU citizens

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

unless they want to drive a truck into Kent or bring goods from NI to GB. Although that seems to be for everyone not just EU citizens

Which has nothing to do with the discussion.