Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

First Up

Aegir wrote: »

well, you could start with the Union of European Federalists. https://www.federalists.eu/spinelli-group and their initiative to reinvigorate the endeavour for the federalisation of the European Union.

my anti EU stance?

you mean my not agreeing with the group think in this echo chamber.

you see, that is just putting words in to my mouth.

It is ridiculous and frankly sad, but my fault i guess for trying to have a grown up conversation.

And how is the Spinelli Group getting along? Gaining support from any political parties? Which countries do you see or expect to see leading the march to federalism under their instructions?

Ah, so you are not anti the EU as it now operates? You are just worried about it leading to a federal Europe?

Which words did I put in your mouth? I asked you if re-assurance that the EU is not on a slippery slope to a federal Europe would calm your fears. Would it?

First Up

Aegir wrote: »

so you still haven't read my initial post on this topic then Francis.

The one that offered the phrase "ever closer Union" as evidence of a slide into federalism?

Seth Brundle

https://twitter.com/_BillieBelieves/status/1341346848792080385

PeadarCo

Aegir wrote: »

well, you could start with the Union of European Federalists. https://www.federalists.eu/spinelli-group and their initiative to reinvigorate the endeavour for the federalisation of the European Union.


you mean my not agreeing with the group think in this echo chamber.

So let me guess there are some people who want a federal Europe therefore a federal Europe is inevitable? Or what's your argument? Because if you go down that route you can make up anything. Look at Ireland we have the RISE/PBP/what ever they are called these days in the Dail does that mean Ireland is destined to become a communist state? That's just one example. In the UK is the end of the monarchy inevitable due to English republican groups?

On a more serious note there are people who would like federal Europe there are also opposing opinions. But if you look at Lisbon Treaty the EU made it very easy for a country to leave. That's the exact opposite of an organisation that's trying to become a federation.

Do we really have to go down the route of having to explain how the EU works. You have 450 million people in the EU. Of course you are going to have people who would like to see a federal Europe and big deal welcome to the world of free speech and freedom of association. Now if you think that's means a federal Europe is inevitable you are going have to explain how with specific regard to how the EU makes decisions as a whole and on a country by country basis ie a referendum would be required in Ireland for example.

Also it's a bit rich calling people out on ad hominem given how often you cry echo chamber instead of actually arguing your point. If your point stands on its own it doesn't matter that a large number of people disagree with it. The issue with the whole EU federalism bit is that it's a strawman, so of course you aren't going to find many people agreeing with this imaginery EU that doesn't exist.

First Up

First Up wrote: »

And how is the Spinelli Group getting along? Gaining support from any political parties? Which countries do you see or expect to see leading the march to federalism under their instructions?

you can read up on the Spinelli group if you like. You might also like to read this article from the Guardian regarding the election of Juncker.

First Up wrote: »

Ah, so you are not anti the EU as it now operates? You are just worried about it leading to a federal Europe?

I'm not a bug fan of the EU, but I am not and have never been "Anti" the EU, no.

you are confusing not agreeing with the group think to be anti EU.

First Up wrote: »

Which words did I put in your mouth? I asked you if re-assurance that the EU is not on a slippery slope to a federal Europe would calm your fears. Would it?

and you can give that assurance can you? maybe you should start by reading the Solemn Declaration on the European Union. It's changed a bit but does not and has never said anything about Sovereign states, only member states.

As I said way back when, I don't think a Federal Europe will happen, but I don't think you can say it will never happen (I note you have changed your words now). I don't agree with a Federal Europe. Maybe one day in the future it will be the right thing, but too many countries are still too focused on national issues.

PeadarCo

PeadarCo wrote: »

So let me guess there are some people who want a federal Europe therefore a federal Europe is inevitable? Or what's your argument? Because if you go down that route you can make up anything. Look at Ireland we have the RISE/PBP/what ever they are called these days in the Dail does that mean Ireland is destined to become a communist state? That's just one example. In the UK is the end of the monarchy inevitable due to English republican groups?

and another one who hasn't actually read my post :rolleyes:

PeadarCo wrote: »

On a more serious note there are people who would like federal Europe there are also opposing opinions. But if you look at Lisbon Treaty the EU made it very easy for a country to leave. That's the exact opposite of an organisation that's trying to become a federation.

one country is leaving and the EU pariament put a federalist in charge of looking after their interests.

PeadarCo wrote: »

Do we really have to go down the route of having to explain how the EU works. You have 450 million people in the EU. Of course you are going to have people who would like to see a federal Europe and big deal welcome to the world of free speech and freedom of association. Now if you think that's means a federal Europe is inevitable you are going have to explain how with specific regard to how the EU makes decisions as a whole and on a country by country basis ie a referendum would be required in Ireland for example.

as i have said numerous times, go back and read my post and respond to that, rather than responding to what you think i wrote.

PeadarCo wrote: »

Also it's a bit rich calling people out on ad hominem given how often you cry echo chamber instead of actually arguing your point. If your point stands on its own it doesn't matter that a large number of people disagree with it. The issue with the whole EU federalism bit is that it's a strawman, so of course you aren't going to find many people agreeing with this imaginery EU that doesn't exist.

as i have said numerous times, go back and read my post and respond to that, rather than responding to what you think i wrote.

Professor Moriarty

Aegir wrote: »

you can read up on the Spinelli group if you like. You might also like to read this article from the Guardian regarding the election of Juncker.



I'm not a bug fan of the EU, but I am not and have never been "Anti" the EU, no.

you are confusing not agreeing with the group think to be anti EU.



and you can give that assurance can you? maybe you should start by reading the Solemn Declaration on the European Union. It's changed a bit but does not and has never said anything about Sovereign states, only member states.

As I said way back when, I don't think a Federal Europe will happen, but I don't think you can say it will never happen (I note you have changed your words now). I don't agree with a Federal Europe. Maybe one day in the future it will be the right thing, but too many countries are still too focused on national issues.

Wouldn't it be ironic if the EU became a federation at the same as the UK was fragmenting.

Donald Trump

Seth Brundle wrote: »

https://twitter.com/_BillieBelieves/status/1341346848792080385

I saw something earlier today with a quote which said that, because they were already planning for "no deal" exit that they luckily already had plans in place to deal with the backlog of lorries so that when the French stopped the traffic, they were able to use that plan



What was the plan I hear you ask? .....



....It was to dedicate one lane of the motorway to lorries for parking!

First Up

Aegir wrote: »

As I said way back when, I don't think a Federal Europe will happen, but I don't think you can say it will never happen (I note you have changed your words now). I don't agree with a Federal Europe. Maybe one day in the future it will be the right thing, but too many countries are still too focused on national issues.

I didn't say it will never happen. I outlined the things that would need to happen before it could. Specific things, not vague references to "key figures of influence"

You joined this discussion by quoting the "ever closer Union" phrase, framing it as a threat of federalism. If you are now admitting that it is not a threat, then just say so,

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

so you still haven't read my initial post on this topic then Francis.

I did, and your subsequent revealing posts.

First Up

First Up wrote: »

I didn't say it will never happen. I outlined the things that would need to happen before it could. Specific things, not vague references to "key figures of influence"

You joined this discussion by quoting the "ever closer Union" phrase, framing it as a threat of federalism. If you are now admitting that it is not a threat, then just say so,

your post and my response. The entrance to the rabbit hole.

First Up wrote: »

No such project has, is or will be made a condition of EU membership.

Aegir wrote: »

What does “ever closer Union” mean?

No one has ever defined that and there are key figures within the eu that believe federalisation is the goal.

I’m not saying it will happen, but I don’t believe you can say it will not for certain.

First Up

OK - you listen to whichever key figures say what you want to hear and I'll deal in facts.

We are unlikely to run into each other.

Peregrinus

Aegir wrote: »

As I said way back when, I don't think a Federal Europe will happen, but I don't think you can say it will never happen (I note you have changed your words now). I don't agree with a Federal Europe. Maybe one day in the future it will be the right thing, but too many countries are still too focused on national issues.

Nobody can say that it will never happen. And, regardless of Brexit, nobody can say that it will never happen and that the UK will never be part of it, since the UK could change its mind about Brexit. So voting for Brexit in order to keep the UK out of a federal Europe that might happen might not work.

What we can say, I think, is that by Brexiting the UK reduces its ability to influence whether a federal Europe happens or not.

We are dealing in pretty remote contingencies here. Voting one way or the other on Brexit on the basis of remote contingencies while ignoring present realities would be . . . unwise.

Scoondal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5XeL04mP64
They have already exited EU, last January.

Seth Brundle

https://twitter.com/Ottojizzmark/status/1341498146984251392?s=19

First Up

Peregrinus wrote:

We are dealing in pretty remote contingencies here. Voting one way or the other on Brexit on the basis of remote contingencies while ignoring present realities would be . . . unwise.

And it's shows how feeble the Brexit argument is when people have to invent nonsense like that to try to justify it.

Fuascailteoir

Seth Brundle wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Ottojizzmark/status/1341498146984251392?s=19

Comment under that shows truck drivers parked up in Kent being issued with parking fines. I can imagine the language coming out of the cabs with that carry on

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

We are dealing in pretty remote contingencies here. Voting one way or the other on Brexit on the basis of remote contingencies while ignoring present realities would be . . . unwise.

did someone do that then?

Kermit.de.frog

The deal will be announced tomorrow.

It looks indeed like Britain has secured control of it's money, laws and borders.

Choosehowevr.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The deal will be announced tomorrow.

It looks indeed like Britain has secured control of it's money, laws and borders.

The experiment begins..

Hamsterchops

Just 24 hours (or less) to go now before the deal is finally signed :eek:

Who'd if thought this was possible even a week ago, and now it's finally in the bag. But ......

Many here in the ROI won't be happy about changing our online shopping habits from UK sites to continental sites, which I guess will be a major pain, or maybe not, I'm not sure to be honest?

Apparently if you buy something online that comes fro GB then the price stays the same until it enters the ROI, then Irish VAT will be added making the price way OTT :cool:

So even if you buy something on eBay.ie (which comes from GB) then you get handed the Irish VAT/import bill too!

Choosehowevr.

There seems to be a lot of drama to everything Boris does

One thing I have concluded is that he's not a very intelligent person

ancapailldorcha

Choosehowevr. wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of drama to everything Boris does

One thing I have concluded is that he's not a very intelligent person

He's intelligent, just deeply, deeply lazy, lecherous, deceitful, self-serving, and devoid of any sort of principles or ideology save for his own self-advancement.

Choosehowevr.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

He's intelligent, just deeply, deeply lazy, lecherous, deceitful, self-serving, and devoid of any sort of principles or ideology save for his own self-advancement.

That bad lol

They say timing is everything in politics and his is terrible

Kermit.de.frog

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

He's intelligent, just deeply, deeply lazy, lecherous, deceitful, self-serving, and devoid of any sort of principles or ideology save for his own self-advancement.

Why do people vote for him then? Why does he have the support he has in parliament and among the public? I mean, if all that is true.

ExMachina1000

If the UK got a trade deal and retained control of their financials, standards and borders in exchange for fish well we know who played a blinder in negotiations.

ancapailldorcha

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Why do people vote for him then? Why does he have the support he has in parliament and among the public? I mean, if all that is true.

Why do people vote for Trump or Danny Healy-Rae? Habit, apathy, disinterest or wanting to vote for someone you know will upset someone else. Take your pick.

ExMachina1000

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why do people vote for Trump or Danny Healy-Rae? Habit, apathy, disinterest or wanting to vote for someone you know will upset someone else. Take your pick.

None of the above.

Choosehowevr.

What's all this about fishing then?

I presume it has nothing to do with fish or fishermen

Is it a territorial issue or what's at stake there?

Dyr

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

He's intelligent, just deeply, deeply lazy, lecherous, deceitful, self-serving, and devoid of any sort of principles or ideology save for his own self-advancement.

So he's a politician is what you're saying?