Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

Leroy42

timetogo1 wrote: »

It's mad that 4 years after the referendum some people still post the soundbites that we know are rubbish. He went with a list of requirements.

Here's what Cameron came back with. Spoiler alert. It wasn't "ZERO"

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105

The UK didn't get 100% what they wanted so in the Trump style of negotiation that means they lost.

And of course based on that same logic, they lost Brexit too.

But I won't hold my breath waiting for consistency

Hamsterchops

The whole Cameron episode was lived out in the British tabloids, who told us about the massive annual immigration numbers into GB, the tabloids also told us about Cameron coming back to Westminster with nothing to show for his visit to Brussels. (This was headline news, this was the perception).

My main point being that the British tabloids are not without fault in the whole Brexit debate.

The subtleties of UK-EU relations was lost on vast swathes of the British population who got their news from the Tabloids.

Donald Trump

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I think he's making a terrible mistake. It will be passed no matter what they vote. The large majority of Labour supporters are anti Brexit as are his parliamentary party. He is now telling them they must accept and vote for an extremely hard Brexit. Morally and strategically wrong. Labour has become a fragmented waste of time.

His choice is between what is currently on the table and crashing out with nothing.

Dyr

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I think he's making a terrible mistake. It will be passed no matter what they vote. The large majority of Labour supporters are anti Brexit as are his parliamentary party. He is now telling them they must accept and vote for an extremely hard Brexit. Morally and strategically wrong. Labour has become a fragmented waste of time.

He can have Labour go down with the good ship Remain or realise that he needs to start winning votes again if Labour want to have any chance to challenge the Tories. I don't think he's up to to it, Labour are far too entrenched in virtue signalling to their middle class demographic to win back their base.

Dyr

Hamsterchops wrote: »

The whole Cameron episode was lived out in the British tabloids, who told us about the massive annual immigration numbers into GB, the tabloids also told us about Cameron coming back to Westminster with nothing to show for his visit to Brussels. (This was headline news, this was the perception).

My main point being that the British tabloids are not without fault in the whole Brexit debate.

The subtleties of UK-EU relations was lost on vast swathes of the British population who got their news from the Tabloids.

Thats why Remain lost and kept losing, an attitude of bewildered contempt towards the peasants that voted to leave.

banie01

Donald Trump wrote: »

His choice is between what is currently on the table and crashing out with nothing.

It really isn't though.
The Tories have an 80 seat majority, the Tory right wing were the driving force in Brexit.

Morally, the Tories own Brexit.
It's their Baby, Labour and the other opposing parties should IMO vote en bloc against the deal as presented.
The deal will still pass, but it will be solely, wholly and irrevocably the Tory brexit.

Make them own the disaster they have wrought, rather than voting assent for the sake of unity, for the good of the country.

The Scots are going to break away as soon as practicable, particularly when they see the benefits that N.I are keeping such as Erasmus and EHIC, let alone single market access.

The DUP really have played a blinder, and the softly, softly approach of Ireland in ensuring the EU take a whole island approach is going to sow far more intra UK divisiveness than anything I could have imagined a bombing campaign achieving in the 80s/90s.

I'm agog at the harm the Tories and the DUP have wrought the union.
Part of me should be revelling in schadenfreude at the chaos...
But!
I worry for friends, family and acquaintances in the UK.
A country's government forcing a deal that leaves its people poorer is madness.
For all their faults and our awful history, I don't want people there to suffer to assuage the guilt I assign their flag.
They are our closest neighbour, and it's mad to think that now an Irish passport holder living in the UK.
Has far more rights and freedoms than either a UK citizen or an EU citizen.

Professor Moriarty

Donald Trump wrote: »

His choice is between what is currently on the table and crashing out with nothing.

By voting with this Tory government, Starmer is endorsing a very hard Brexit. This would pass easily without Labour's votes - check out the Brexiteer opinion pieces in the Telegraph - and the future pain caused by Brexit would be owned by the Tory party. Now they can't criticiise the Tories at all any time in the future because.....they voted for it. It's a stupid and unprincipled move that will see many disillusioned Remainers and pro European voters walk away from Labour.

Professor Moriarty

Bambi wrote: »

He can have Labour go down with the good ship Remain or realise that he needs to start winning votes again if Labour want to have any chance to challenge the Tories. I don't think he's up to to it, Labour are far too entrenched in virtue signalling to their middle class demographic to win back their base.

They're a party split down the middle. And as the opposition in a FPTP system, they are as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.

RobMc59

Hamsterchops wrote: »

The whole Cameron episode was lived out in the British tabloids, who told us about the massive annual immigration numbers into GB, the tabloids also told us about Cameron coming back to Westminster with nothing to show for his visit to Brussels. (This was headline news, this was the perception).

My main point being that the British tabloids are not without fault in the whole Brexit debate.

The subtleties of UK-EU relations was lost on vast swathes of the British population who got their news from the Tabloids.

I don't trust the majority of the UK press although European media is also guilty of propaganda.One thing I have noted though,is the UK wanted a Canada style deal but were told that wasn't going to happen as seen in the link I've provided.Then lo and behold,we get a Canada plus deal.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/02/19/uk-blasts-eu-s-barnier-for-rejecting-post-brexit-canada-style-trade-deal

Choosehowevr.

The way I see it Starmer can make a grown-up political decision as to which is better and vote for it

He might be sacrificing himself and the party in doing so but on a big decision like this I don't think they should be on the sidelines

Hamsterchops

RobMc59 wrote: »

One thing I have noted though,is the UK wanted a Canada style deal but were told that wasn't going to happen as seen in the link I've provided.Then lo and behold,we get a Canada plus deal.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/02/19/uk-blasts-eu-s-barnier-for-rejecting-post-brexit-canada-style-trade-deal

Very interesting, thanks for that✓

namloc1980

Interesting to see the shock of all the people on twitter suddenly realising what this deal means. No freedom of movement, no Erasmus for college students, no regional EU funding, no Brits abroad retiring to the sun in France and Spain.

ohnonotgmail

namloc1980 wrote: »

Interesting to see the shock of all the people on twitter suddenly realising what this deal means. No freedom of movement, no Erasmus for college students, no regional EU funding, no Brits abroad retiring to the sun in France and Spain.

ah but you are forgetting about the sunlit uplands.

Donald Trump

banie01 wrote: »

Donald Trump wrote: »

His choice is between what is currently on the table and crashing out with nothing.

It really isn't though.
The Tories have an 80 seat majority, the Tory right wing were the driving force in Brexit.

Morally, the Tories own Brexit.
It's their Baby, Labour and the other opposing parties should IMO vote en bloc against the deal as presented.
The deal will still pass, but it will be solely, wholly and irrevocably the Tory brexit.

Make them own the disaster they have wrought, rather than voting assent for the sake of unity, for the good of the country.

The Scots are going to break away as soon as practicable, particularly when they see the benefits that N.I are keeping such as Erasmus and EHIC, let alone single market access.

The DUP really have played a blinder, and the softly, softly approach of Ireland in ensuring the EU take a whole island approach is going to sow far more intra UK divisiveness than anything I could have imagined a bombing campaign achieving in the 80s/90s.

I'm agog at the harm the Tories and the DUP have wrought the union.

No. It is simple. It is that choice. If the vote passes then they accept the deal. If it doesn't pass then it's no deal. This "not taking responsibility" is a load of bollox. Given the choice between two less-than-ideal outcomes, you have to stand up and make that choice.


All the politicians over there are as culpable for the mess. Where was the strong Labour message before the vote explaining the benefits of staying in the EU? So they made their decision and now they should step up to the plate and own it. Not stick their heads in the sand and not have their voices counted towards making that choice just so they can later try to deflect blame from themselves.

ExMachina1000

From January 1st

"Skilled workers

The points-based system includes a route for skilled workers who have a job offer from an approved employer sponsor.

The job you’re offered will need to be at a required skill level of RQF3 or above (equivalent to A level). You’ll also need to be able to speak English and be paid the relevant salary threshold by your sponsor. This will either be the general salary threshold of £25,600 or the going rate for your job, whichever is higher.

If you earn less than this - but no less than £20,480 - you may still be able to apply by ‘trading’ points on specific characteristics against your salary. For example, if you have a job offer in a shortage occupation or have a PhD relevant to the job"

Immigration to Ireland as an alternative will surely increase. More pressure on housing especially
rental markets?
Ie more demand with same supply

First Up

RobMc59 wrote:

I don't trust the majority of the UK press although European media is also guilty of propaganda.One thing I have noted though,is the UK wanted a Canada style deal but were told that wasn't going to happen as seen in the link I've provided.Then lo and behold,we get a Canada plus deal.

A Canada deal means that UK trade with the EU will still face border controls and delays. That doesn't matter much for Canada. They are 5,000k away and their business with the EU is not built around time critical integrated and interdependent supply chains, as much of the UK's is.

Barnier was pointing out how these geographical realities made a Canada deal (plus, minus, squared or anything else) a poor model for the UK.

It's the best they were ever going to get and it will decimate a significant part of the UK's business in Europe Its a pitiful shadow of what they had before but if you only have one straw to clutch.......

RobMc59

First Up wrote: »

A Canada deal means that UK trade with the EU will still face border controls and delays. That doesn't matter much for Canada. They are 5,000k away and their business with the EU is not built around time critical integrated and interdependent supply chains, as much of the UK's is.

Barnier was pointing out how these geographical realities made a Canada deal (plus, minus, squared or anything else) a poor model for the UK.

It's the best they were ever going to get and it will decimate a significant part of the UK's business in Europe Its a pitiful shadow of what they had before but if you only have one straw to clutch.......

I think the point is that the EU were adamant no Canada style deal then after unexpected UK stubbornness coupled with EU jitters regarding fishing access the UK gets a Canada plus deal.All in a time limited package which suits the UK more imo.

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

I think the point is that the EU were adamant no Canada style deal then after unexpected UK stubbornness coupled with EU jitters regarding fishing access the UK gets a Canada plus deal.All in a time limited package which suits the UK more imo.

The EU were fine with a Canada-style deal. The UK wanted a closer arrangement with more access to the single market. That's what the problem was.

I don't see how this suits the UK in anything other than preventing a rise in the price of food. Fishing contributes less than 0.1% of GDP. It would be nice to see this recognised so that the impact on Britain's financial sector can be discussed seriously. Their competitors in Frankfurt, Dublin and Amsterdam are the big winners here IMO.

First Up

ancapailldorcha wrote:

Their competitors in Frankfurt, Dublin and Amsterdam are the big winners here IMO.

Their competitors across 27 countries are offering themselves as alternatives; pointing out the risks and complications of suppliers who are subject to queues on the M20.

Don't think videos of the last few days won't be widely shared.

ancapailldorcha

First Up wrote: »

Their competitors across 27 countries are offering themselves as alternatives; pointing out the risks and complications of suppliers who are subject to queues on the M20.

Don't think videos of the last few days won't be widely shared.

Of course but cities like the ones I mentioned are the ones with the most advantages already.

Professor Moriarty

Donald Trump wrote: »

No. It is simple. It is that choice. If the vote passes then they accept the deal. If it doesn't pass then it's no deal. This "not taking responsibility" is a load of bollox. Given the choice between two less-than-ideal outcomes, you have to stand up and make that choice.


All the politicians over there are as culpable for the mess. Where was the strong Labour message before the vote explaining the benefits of staying in the EU? So they made their decision and now they should step up to the plate and own it. Not stick their heads in the sand and not have their voices counted towards making that choice just so they can later try to deflect blame from themselves.

Admittedly Corbyn was a useless clown, but Labour's manifesto was strong on Brexit. They promised a second referendum within six months with two options:
1. A Brexit that ensured close alignment with the SM, alignment on workers' rights etc., and participation in various EU programs
2. Remain.

First Up

ancapailldorcha wrote:

Of course but cities like the ones I mentioned are the ones with the most advantages already.

Plenty other places in the queue.

PeadarCo

RobMc59 wrote: »

I think the point is that the EU were adamant no Canada style deal then after unexpected UK stubbornness coupled with EU jitters regarding fishing access the UK gets a Canada plus deal.All in a time limited package which suits the UK more imo.

The exact opposite. In a well known slide presented by Barnier to the EU heads of government a Canada style deal was explicitly mentioned. Now whether you argue its Canada plus/negative/ equal etc you are arguing semantics as it didn't push the UK up on the graph in terms of access to the EU market. Yes the UK gets access to the EU markets tariff free but its heavily constrained by the ability of the EU to enforce its regulations on the UK. Elements of which may hinder the UK when agreeing deals with other trade blocs.

Donald Trump

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Admittedly Corbyn was a useless clown, but Labour's manifesto was strong on Brexit. They promised a second referendum within six months with two options:
1. A Brexit that ensured close alignment with the SM, alignment on workers' rights etc., and participation in various EU programs
2. Remain.

What would you vote if you were in the UK parliament? Suppose you had the casting vote and you are the one to decide. Everyone else has decided except you and it is a tie. Your choice is to either accept what is on the table or to crash out on 31st. There are no other options.

What would you choose? You have to choose one. There are no magic unicorns on this side of the debate either. Rejecting the deal and reversing Brexit before 31st isn't an option.


If you tell me you reject because you want a "WTO deal" then that is fair enough.

However, if you are going to tell me that you'd accept the deal if you had a casting vote, but that you'd reject it if your vote didn't matter then would that not be a little dishonest?


I personally don't care what happens to the future of the Labour/Tory/whatever party in the UK. This is a serious matter and a difficult choice between two terrible outcomes. If your man hasn't the balls to stand up and openly choose the best of the two then he is only being sly and dishonest and politicking.



The opposition in the UK appeared to jump on the anti-Brexit bandwagon after the horse had bolted. Was that genuine or just more politicking? If they are going to play games now for populism without consequence then I'd have to suspect that maybe that is what they did in changing their manifesto after the vote!

fash

Hamsterchops wrote: »

The whole Cameron episode was lived out in the British tabloids, who told us about the massive annual immigration numbers into GB, the tabloids also told us about Cameron coming back to Westminster with nothing to show for his visit to Brussels. (This was headline news, this was the perception).

My main point being that the British tabloids are not without fault in the whole Brexit debate.

The subtleties of UK-EU relations was lost on vast swathes of the British population who got their news from the Tabloids.

Entirely Cameron's own fault: he oversold what he would get before he went.
When he got some but not the most "damaging to the very essence of the EU" concessions (some on the EU side even believed the EU bent too far) - it looked like failure to those he'd sold it to.
A significant contributor to Brexit was Cameron leaving its "normal" EU parliamentary group for a far right one - it meant he lost a lot of signaling, communication and back channel communication which may have helped him understand what was/was not feasible.

fash

RobMc59 wrote: »

I don't trust the majority of the UK press although European media is also guilty of propaganda.One thing I have noted though,is the UK wanted a Canada style deal but were told that wasn't going to happen as seen in the link I've provided.Then lo and behold,we get a Canada plus deal.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/02/19/uk-blasts-eu-s-barnier-for-rejecting-post-brexit-canada-style-trade-deal

The UK did not want a "Canada deal" - and none was ever offered. It always wanted (and was always offered) a "Canada +++" deal - with the appropriate level playing field provisions.

Now we have a treaty with the toughest level playing field provisions in history.
We all got what we wanted - you should be happy.

ILoveYourVibes

fash wrote: »

We all got what we wanted - you should be happy.

Read it ...we got what we wanted.

Young british people and middle class professionals got screwed over.

Erasmus ...the uk refused to pay into it.

Architects Drs Nurses qualifications no longer recognized. The NHS is screwed.

Brits now need student visas or working visas to work in the EU. Only no employer will touch them over there until they have one. Catch 22.

We did very well. Except our nurses can't really go to the uk as easily now.

RobMc59

fash wrote: »

The UK did not want a "Canada deal" - and none was ever offered. It always wanted (and was always offered) a "Canada +++" deal - with the appropriate level playing field provisions.

Now we have a treaty with the toughest level playing field provisions in history.
We all got what we wanted - you should be happy.

According to the link I provided from euro news the EU were adamant no Canada style deal,apparently one of the most popular news outlets.I made sure my source wasn't from a UK source to avoid the usual 'oh that rag/outfit' comments.
In addition,although the extra work involved will be a challenge initially,I believe this is a new beginning for all parties,not an attempt by the EU to try and trip the UK up at every opportunity which would actually be counterproductive if a good working relationship is the aim.
I never got what I wanted fash,I never wanted to leave but we all have to move on.

fash

RobMc59 wrote: »

According to the link I provided from euro news the EU were adamant no Canada style deal,apparently one of the most popular news outlets.I made sure my source wasn't from a UK source to avoid the usual 'oh that rag/outfit' comments.

talking about a "Canada" deal in the way you are doing is misleading.
A Canada deal in the sense of one without super robust level playing field provisions that went way beyond those given to Canada was never on the table. (And we've ended up with one with one with the strictest LPF obligations in history).
A Canada deal in the sense of some quotas and some tariffs was never requested by either side (and we've ended up with a zero tariff/zero quota deal).
A Canada deal in the sense of nothing on truck driver delivery rights, security database access etc was never sought - and the UK has retained various rights in that regard.

What the UK received was always on the table.
A pure Canada deal was never sought and would never have been granted.

Bonniedog

I wonder will out own "elite" now do something mad like suggest that EU doesn't have right to control out territorial waters? Or maybe to write off some of the 64 billion debt they landed us with?

Sorry, just some random thoughts :-)

Anyway, let us hope others who still have their male and female parts intact will try to negotiate back to what EU was supposed to be, rather than what the Euro fanatics would like it to be.