Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

First Up

Bonniedog wrote:

Anyway, let us hope others who still have their male and female parts intact will try to negotiate back to what EU was supposed to be, rather than what the Euro fanatics would like it to be.

So the EU that was supposed to be would take over our debt, but leave our fish alone?

fash

Bonniedog wrote: »

Anyway, let us hope others who still have their male and female parts intact will try to negotiate back to what EU was supposed to be, rather than what the Euro fanatics would like it to be.

are you gullible enough to fall for that Brexiter talking point? I'm surprised anyone in Ireland is to that extent - it is a rather damning failure of the Irish educational system.

lawred2

fash wrote: »

are you gullible enough to fall for that Brexiter talking point? I'm surprised anyone in Ireland is to that extent - it is a rather damning failure of the Irish educational system.

The entire system has failed because one lad is grossly misled?

Dyr

fash wrote: »

are you gullible enough to fall for that Brexiter talking point? I'm surprised anyone in Ireland is to that extent - it is a rather damning failure of the Irish educational system.

Indeed what if the EU hears the likes of him, he'll make a holy show of us Snéachta! Perhaps they'll even threaten to set a bomb off in Dublin...again.

I think you're going to find the EUs overreach into national decision making is going to become a talking point regardless of brexiteers.

Bonniedog

fash wrote: »

are you gullible enough to fall for that Brexiter talking point? I'm surprised anyone in Ireland is to that extent - it is a rather damning failure of the Irish educational system.

This like being told by a 14 year old to "grow up"

Read some of the cr@p here if you are on a gullibility search.

RobMc59

Bonniedog wrote: »

This like being told by a 14 year old to "grow up"

Read some of the cr@p here if you are on a gullibility search.

That's true,there are many posters who take exception to anything remotely critical of the EU saying its either propaganda lies from a British 'rag' or you are instantly labelled as a scurrilous brexiteer bot in disguise..

fash

Bonniedog wrote: »

This like being told by a 14 year old to "grow up"

Read some of the cr@p here if you are on a gullibility search.

Here was Heath when the UK first joined in 1973:
.

Here was "ever closer union" in 1957:
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/de/documents-publications/library/library-blog/posts/ever-closer-union-the-legacy-of-the-treaties-of-rome-for-today-s-europe-1957-2017-online-exhibition/#

And here is the EU that the UK built:
.

Turns out that in order to have a frictionless common market, you need a uniform and common set of rules - which means a single arbiter of those rules - who knew or could have guessed?


So yes, anyone who believes what the Brexiters say on this are either exceptionally gullible or deliberately misleading.

ancapailldorcha

Is this sort of carry on we can expect in the next few years? Red top columnists pretending to have had a hard time?



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EqL8KqcXcAA12LQ?format=jpg&name=large

fash

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's true,there are many posters who take exception to anything remotely critical of the EU saying its either propaganda lies from a British 'rag' or you are instantly labelled as a scurrilous brexiteer bot in disguise..

So at what point was the EU ever meant to be something other than it is? In what way would you want it to have been different- and why didn't the UK government (or indeed anyone) propose returning to a relationship with the EU in such a format?
Answer: because it never existed, can never exist and any relationship which involves common uniform rules needs a structure to ensure those rules are applied uniformly.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's true,there are many posters who take exception to anything remotely critical of the EU saying its either propaganda lies from a British 'rag' or you are instantly labelled as a scurrilous brexiteer bot in disguise..

No, posters rightly call out misinformed posts that create issues that don't exist or are painting possibilities as definitive.

Brexit is based entirely on that very premise. No facts, no basis in reality. All based on opinions, feelings and what may happen.

Repeating already debunked nonsense is always going to called out.

How many posts have there been calling the imminent throwing of Ireland under a bus, disintegration of the EU etc. Brexit is all based on the future, as there is no way to prove anything they claim.

RobMc59

fash wrote: »

So at what point was the EU ever meant to be something other than it is? In what way would you want it to have been different- and why didn't the UK government (or indeed anyone) propose returning to a relationship with the EU in such a format?
Answer: because it never existed, can never exist and any relationship which involves common uniform rules needs a structure to ensure those rules are applied uniformly.

As I remember(as a lad)when Britain joined the common market it was joining a trading community.Now Brussels wants to control every aspect of member states affairs and it is also trying to throw its weight around as a world policeman.
If a country wants to be in the EU it looses any unilateral control of its own laws,standards and medical law.
This has been illustrated by EU countries having to wait for Brussels to OK the covid vaccine for example.

RobMc59

Leroy42 wrote: »

No, posters rightly call out misinformed posts that create issues that don't exist or are painting possibilities as definitive.

Brexit is based entirely on that very premise. No facts, no basis in reality. All based on opinions, feelings and what may happen.

Repeating already debunked nonsense is always going to called out.

How many posts have there been calling the imminent throwing of Ireland under a bus, disintegration of the EU etc. Brexit is all based on the future, as there is no way to prove anything they claim.

As far as I'm aware,the only posts I've seen about Ireland being thrown under a bus were posted by Irish people.I agree most of what is said is based on opinion although saying the EU hasn't used propaganda (as has the UK) isn't true imo.

IngazZagni

RobMc59 wrote: »

As I remember(as a lad)when Britain joined the common market it was joining a trading community.Now Brussels wants to control every aspect of member states affairs and it is also trying to throw its weight around as a world policeman.
If a country wants to be in the EU it looses any unilateral control of its own laws,standards and medical law.
This has been illustrated by EU countries having to wait for Brussels to OK the covid vaccine for example.

False. Countries could choose to implement an emergency directive if they wanted in order to get the vaccine early. However it was agreed by all EU member states to have a coordinated response to the virus and to allow proportionate distribution to member states.

_Kaiser_

Interesting piece in the IT this morning

Faultline that would lead to Brexit evident in Haughey-Thatcher meetings (via @IrishTimes)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/faultline-that-would-lead-to-brexit-evident-in-haughey-thatcher-meetings-1.4444755

When Haughey broached the subject of political union with Thatcher, he said it could be “as minimalist or as maximalist as we make it”.

The British prime minister replied curtly. “There was first of all an economic community. Then we widened it to develop European political co-operation. We have enough to digest at present. If we go further we will create even wider divisions,” she told Haughey.

...

She noted, after unification, “Germany will be so powerful that it will dominate everyone.

“They will be dealing with a powerful and dominating nation of maybe 80 to 90 million people with a new confidence – a new euphoria.”

She wasn't wrong. That's exactly what happened

Thatcher reserved her harshest criticism for the European Commission, which she said was anti-democratic.

“The days of appointed commissioners must be numbered. We must give power to the council of ministers. I am not handing over authority to a non-elected bureaucracy...

“We must take away the power of initiative from the commission. Can we get this through?”

The taoiseach replied: “I don’t think so.”

“They are just a new politburo,” she added.

What does political union mean? Are they going to change the crowned head of every country? Are they going to change the president of your country?
“The commission was necessary for the European Community to start off, but it is a totally non-democratic power structure now. It is not responsible to the European Parliament or to any other parliament. What we need there is a proper, professional civil service to serve the council ministers. We must metamorphose it into that.”

Which of course speaks to the whole issue with the EU leadership structure. It's unaccountable to the parliaments of its members and certainly not to its citizens.

I've said for years that the EU "project" started to go off the rails once the leadership started getting political notions rather than sticking with the economic and trade ethos it started as, which worked.

Take Ireland.. FG and FF love to talk about us being a key member of the EU group but in reality we're completely subservient to the more powerful members and exposed to the economic fallout of decisions taken by them to serve them (as we saw in the financial crisis).

Most people here don't know or care about how the EU works (or doesn't), and probably few could name who our commissioners or MEPs are. They take little enough interest in domestic politics beyond the parish pump or parochial. That's on them of course, but it's also because they have no real say in the process or decisions anyway - even less so than with Dail Eireann.

The coming economic crisis as a result of the covid response, but which was building before it anyway, will expose more of the divisions and cracks that Thatcher alluded to 30 years ago.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

As I remember(as a lad)when Britain joined the common market it was joining a trading community.Now Brussels wants to control every aspect of member states affairs and it is also trying to throw its weight around as a world policeman.
If a country wants to be in the EU it looses any unilateral control of its own laws,standards and medical law.
This has been illustrated by EU countries having to wait for Brussels to OK the covid vaccine for example.

And that's fine, if that is what people thought at the time. Things change, evolve . The world has changed, society has changed.

And its perfectly reasonable for people to say that the new version of the EU is not what they want. The issue comes from the lies and misinformation used to paint to decision to opt out as painless and cost free.

And the irony behind Brexit, is that the UK isn't looking to be independent and row back on globalisation and standardisation. Its simply that the UK wants to be in charge.

Brexit is not some change in global outlook, some fundamental divergence from the current system.

And in the end, they have ended up agreeing to abide by all current and future EU standards, accepted a border within their own union, agreed to continue to pay into EU schemes and limited their ability to strike other trade deals in the future.

They ended up in a far worse position than they started, and what was promised. They had been at the table but apparently unable to be heard. Now they have left the table and actually agreed to accept anything the EU wants.

Donald Trump

RobMc59 wrote: »

As I remember(as a lad)when Britain joined the common market it was joining a trading community.Now Brussels wants to control every aspect of member states affairs and it is also trying to throw its weight around as a world policeman.
If a country wants to be in the EU it looses any unilateral control of its own laws,standards and medical law.
This has been illustrated by EU countries having to wait for Brussels to OK the covid vaccine for example.

British scientists mustn't be that great given that they were free of the pesky EU regulations. Russians were administering their vaccine months ago!

FrancieBrady

The amount of strife ahead for the UK as they negotiate the pitfalls outlined by a UKer here is scary.
Good luck to them...it's not going to be pretty for them as they slowly realise it. It will tear 'the union' (the UK one) apart IMO.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2020/dec/27/britain-trade-deal-eu-arguments-brexit-renegotiation

fash

RobMc59 wrote: »

As I remember(as a lad)when Britain joined the common market it was joining a trading community.Now Brussels wants to control every aspect of member states affairs and it is also trying to throw its weight around as a world policeman.

The UK never joined "a common market" - as Heath made clear. "Brussels" doesn't exist - the member states are in control.
The member states decide what is delegated in terms of decision making or not - and control of "everything" is not delegated - as the lack of coordination in relation to control of the pandemic, health care, and migration shows.
"Throwing its weight around" - is rather an ironic statement from a Brit. And I do apologise on behalf of Europe if incentivising human rights, democracy and preventing global warming are an intolerable burden for you. Although perhaps it is you who is problem in this - have you considered that?

If a country wants to be in the EU it looses any unilateral control of its own laws,standards and medical law.
This has been illustrated by EU countries having to wait for Brussels to OK the covid vaccine for example.

Except for the fact that this is nonsense - as the fact that the UK which is under EU law shows - member states are entirely free to start vaccines roll out earlier. However the fact that everyone except for the (incompetent) UK thought it was a stupid idea to do so- perhaps points towards the reason why this was not done. Hint: the UK does not know to whom it has given the vaccine.

Edit: "Both Downing Street and the UK’s medicines regulator have contradicted a claim by Matt Hancock that Brexit helped the UK become the first western country to license a vaccine against coronavirus" link.

Padre_Pio

Donald Trump wrote: »

British scientists mustn't be that great given that they were free of the pesky EU regulations. Russians were administering their vaccine months ago!

The Brits paid 400million more for their vaccine doses than if they followed the EU.

Dyr

Padre_Pio wrote: »

The Brits paid 400million more for their vaccine doses than if they followed the EU.

Brits estimate is 2 million vaccinated by the end of the January, our vaccines are sitting in a fridge.

Geuze

RobMc59 wrote: »

Now Brussels wants to control every aspect of member states affairs and it is also trying to throw its weight around as a world policeman.

This statement is false.

Member-states delegate certain powers to the Commission.

We choose that certain decisions can be made at EU-level.

Dyr

Geuze wrote: »

This statement is false.

Member-states delegate certain powers to the Commission.

We choose that certain decisions can be made at EU-level.

Thats a fine peice of tautology.

ohnonotgmail

Bambi wrote: »

Thats a fine peice of tautology.

it really isn't. Brussels only controls what the member states decide it should control. control is delegated. It can also be undelegated.

fly_agaric

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

She wasn't wrong. That's exactly what happened

Without getting into your whole post and sticking to the German stuff...she (Thatcher) was wrong about Germany. I think we can say that now. She had wanted to block German reunification somehow because of these fears.
As regards Germany becoming a behemoth etc. it was already that in economic terms pre-unification IMO, and the work of reintegrating the East put a drag on their economy for decades.
Germany is certainly not lording it over Europe in the way Thatcher probably envisaged and if anything has been generally meek and consensus seeking in how it approached its dealing with others both inside and more importantly outside the EU.
It has also remained an extremely pacifist country, possibly too much so. Certainly compared to the UK which has not only peed off all its neighbours with
the adversarial way it conducted Brexit since 2016 but has stuck its nose into so many conflicts around the world since Thatchers' days you start to lose track.

Dyr

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it really isn't. Brussels only controls what the member states decide it should control. control is delegated. It can also be undelegated.

Not at all, we had National governments divest us of national powers that we now cannot regain without leaving the EU. Most EU countries elect their national governments for their policies on national issues not on the basis of their policies regarding the EU, nat that it would make a difference given the political consensus that existed. Take a look at Ireland, our main political parties are all singing from the same hymn sheet on Europe. Fianna Fail, Labour, Fine Gael, The Greens, The PDs, it didnt make a bit of difference who we voted for we got the same policy on Europe. Even when we voted for FG who told us they wouldnt give another red cent to the banks they went off and did it anyway. We have this, softly softly catchee monkey three card trick run for 20 years in mainstream European politics and once it came to the crunch in 2008 and people began to realise just what it meant fro them? They were labelled populists.

Britain, France, Hungary, Poland, Italy, Greece, all those pigeons now coming home to roost due to the EU making economic benefits contingent on power being drained away from democratically accountable national governments.

fash

fly_agaric wrote: »

Without getting into your whole post and sticking to the German stuff...she (Thatcher) was wrong about Germany. I think we can say that now. She had wanted to block German reunification somehow because of these fears.

Indeed - when she discussed with Reagan, the Americans were concerned at her racism and her mental health

fash

Bambi wrote: »

Not at all, we had National governments divest us of national powers that we now cannot regain without leaving the EU. Most EU countries elect their national governments for their policies on national issues not on the basis of their policies regarding the EU, nat that it would make a difference given the political consensus that existed. Take a look at Ireland, our main political parties are all singing from the same hymn sheet on Europe. Fianna Fail, Labour, Fine Gael, The Greens, The PDs, it didnt make a bit of difference who we voted for we got the same policy on Europe. .

They also have the same policy on murder and robbery (I e. they are agin it) - any ideas why?
Why not vote for someone from a party that is pro leaving the EU (or pro murder and robbery if that is your thing)- or start one if nothing seems tailored to your thinking. We don't live in an FPTP system after all.

.

Even when we voted for FG who told us they wouldnt give another red cent to the banks they went off and did it anyway..

.

We have this, softly softly catchee monkey three card trick run for 20 years in mainstream European politics and once it came to the crunch in 2008 and people began to realise just what it meant fro them? They were labelled populists. .

That actions have consequences was clear before people voted for Fianna Fail in the early 2000's - that people sought to blame others for their stupidity is the essence of that brand of populism.

.

Britain, France, Hungary, Poland, Italy, Greece, all those pigeons now coming home to roost due to the EU making economic benefits contingent on power being drained away from democratically accountable national governments.

There are layers of garbled nonsense tangled up here. To an extent any common framework requires a unitary legal order to ensure uniformity - so obviously if you want to partake in and benefit from the single market, obviously you must abide by the rules.

As regards power otherwise, it isn't drained away - as Greece showed by having a referendum to leave the euro- they are entitled to choose what they want - the only problem is that those choices have consequences (as Greece also showed).

As regards "chickens home to roost" - the UK is now in a far worse position than being a member - it has handed back control of its destiny to the other countries in Europe. The benefit for Europe being that they now have a perfect example of why populism is bound to fail and why leaving the EU is a bad idea.

fly_agaric

Bambi wrote: »

Not at all, we had National governments divest us of national powers that we now cannot regain without leaving the EU. Most EU countries elect their national governments for their policies on national issues not on the basis of their policies regarding the EU, nat that it would make a difference given the political consensus that existed. Take a look at Ireland, our main political parties are all singing from the same hymn sheet on Europe. Fianna Fail, Labour, Fine Gael, The Greens, The PDs, it didnt make a bit of difference who we voted for we got the same policy on Europe. Even when we voted for FG who told us they wouldnt give another red cent to the banks they went off and did it anyway. We have this, softly softly catchee monkey three card trick run for 20 years in mainstream European politics and once it came to the crunch in 2008 and people began to realise just what it meant fro them? They were labelled populists.

So entire electorate are fools because they are not pressing politicians hard to distance Ireland from the EU and perhaps work towards Irexit in future, making it an important election issue etc. Only Bambi + the eurosceptic posters of this forum understand it all fully and see the light? If only we all just could see through the politicians' three card montes (like Bambi!) ?

Or alternatively Irish people are fairly happy with the status quo as regards our EU membership (edit: which gets relflected in consensus among the parties about the issue)?

Which is more likely I wonder.

Bambi wrote: »

Britain, France, Hungary, Poland, Italy, Greece, all those pigeons now coming home to roost due to the EU making economic benefits contingent on power being drained away from democratically accountable national governments.

No, most of political troubles in these countries have domestic origins even if politicians in some of them want to blame the EU for it + people lap that up.
The UK has been gone for almost a year now and transition ends soon but I bet the Tories will carry on blaming the EU for any inconvenient wrinkles that turn up in the agreement/and or Brexit itself in the new year.

fash wrote: »

Indeed - when she discussed with Reagan, the Americans were concerned at her racism and her mental health

Never read/heard that (but knew she was very isolated in her opinions about Germany/reunification).
Reagan wasn't the best mentally himself towards the end afair!

fash

Bambi wrote: »

Brits estimate is 2 million vaccinated by the end of the January, our vaccines are sitting in a fridge.

Everyone else was just as free to roll out the vaccine as early or even earlier then the UK.
They did not do so - I'm betting you can't guess why.

Of note, the UK also waived liability for any harm caused by the vaccine - no one else has - any ideas why?

Also of note, the UK has been rather incompetent in its roll out -failing to have the necessary tracking procedures in place to ensure effective roll out. Of course, starting vaccination is not the trick - completing vaccination is the primary issue and the UK's incompetence so far is a bigger predictor of where things are going in comparing the UK with other countries than anything else. We will shortly see.

ohnonotgmail

Bambi wrote: »

Brits estimate is 2 million vaccinated by the end of the January, our vaccines are sitting in a fridge.

and how many covid test did they predict they would be doing per week? You really have to take every single one of their predictions with a very large grain of salt.