Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

Padre_Pio

Scoondal wrote: »

The Scotland independance vote was "a once in a generation" vote. The UK government was already throwing shapes in the EU about giving them x,y and z or they would leave. Scots voters were well aware of the possibility of UK leaving EU. They voted to stay within UK regardless of the threats of the UK government to leave EU.
They had their vote and Scotland's true allegiance was exposed.

Not very democratic to restrict the will of the people to once in a generation.

Scoondal

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Not very democratic to restrict the will of the people to once in a generation.

Okay, have a vote as many times until it gives the result required. Then no more votes ever.

Doctor Roast

Bambi wrote: »

It was ignored, Did the EU decide "So the muggles dont want any part of this, lets drop the idea?" Did they f**k, it was repackaged as the the Lisbon Treaty where it could be signed off by the Council of Ministers and the only citizens it was put to were us lot, because they had no choice, we rejected it only to be told we may well bloody well vote again.

Thats your best example of democratic control at work in the EU, says a lot

European values my hole, it opposes the will of the people yet has the neck to criticise others for being undemocratic

Padre_Pio

Scoondal wrote: »

Okay, have a vote as many times until it gives the result required. Then no more votes ever.

Have a vote as many times as people want to vote.

We have elections at a max of seven years, but 3 or 4 or 5 depending on the political climate.

Junkyard Tom

Donald Trump wrote: »

Would be a bit funny though if Scotland left and took the biggest part of the these magical UK fishing waters with them wouldn't it?

Their territorial waters would dwarf England's.

Doctor Roast

Leroy42 wrote: »

Did you miss Brexit? Or Norway voting not to join?

We, Ireland, were free to vote No to Lisbon a second time. We, Ireland, chose not too once the concerns raised were felt to have been dealt with.

Don't blame the EU if you feel the Irish are not competent enough to handle democracy.

No pressure from the EU at all at all...
"the Irish must vote again!" - Sarkozy

FrancieBrady

jelem wrote: »

the french in all "pushes" issues they bring forward are doing best to ensure an EU Military
with france at head. of course germany as large power, some flavour german governments will go along.
oh dear has ireland actually signed up for that through other less conspicious agreements?..

I'd prefer to be signed up to a European Army than the US and it's gunslinger..the UK TBH.

Doctor Roast

Doctor Roast wrote: »

No pressure from the EU at all at all...
"the Irish must vote again!" - Sarkozy

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/eu-officials-still-expecting-irish-to-vote-in-second-referendum-on-lisbon-treaty-28446946.html

jelem

it is constaantly proven by some posters that
"ignorance is bliss"
they fail to realise they live in a REAL world or is it
just ireland as coveney seems to think by his words that he
is someone to be listened to and hence the arrogance flows down.
Coven___ "the uk government has to do ___"
Just to remind sponge brains - uk parliament answers to the courts of uk and
the citizens at elections.
uk has proven (despite deal proposed) LEAVE EU.
irish government cannot even comply with eu legislation and laws which
they constantly break despite getting large handouts for being good little ___.

Junkyard Tom

jelem wrote: »

they fail to realise they live in a REAL world

In the real world Britain did not hold all the cards.

Leroy42

Doctor Roast wrote: »

No pressure from the EU at all at all...
"the Irish must vote again!" - Sarkozy

And? Nobody forced us to change our votes. That people did either implies they were satisfied to do so or they are incapable of making their own decisions.

If the latter then it calls into question every vote we have ever done?

Do you really think the Irish are such incapable of their own decisions?

And why, which such power, did the EU not simply force the UK to revote and save themselves all the hassle? Seems odd that they would use their power on such an important issue.

SEPT 23 1989

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

In the real world Britain did not hold all the cards.

Not the language of victory but fear

Dr Cockhound

First time poster after a (very) long time lurking and having waded through 330 pages of this debate on here, I'm left more than a little troubled by the blatant hate for the English, proudly displayed by a significant minority of posters.

Is it not enough that a deal has been struck that both sides are hailing as successful?

What possible personal benefit would be derived by the economic failure of the United Kingdom?

cryptocurrency

We are getting desperate here with the speculation. We had 4 years of back and for, mocking and laughing at May make a fool of the Brits and then the WA they signed up too....Now, at the end of it all....I look online and outside of the odd comment of "the UK will be weaker" or rubbish like that, I am looking to see through the soundbites like "there are no winners here" and see who is happy and who is not...seems the panto villains such as Farage, Boris, IDS, the ERG, The Daily Express, The Daily Mail, Darren Grimes (insert a.n.other) are all delighted and the remainers, Europeans, EU negotiators, even Neale Richmond, have all done very quiet...This can't possibly be a win. All the talk, all the bluster, all the performance and the final message is Farage and Co walking off into the sunset with smiles and what they wanted.

Moral of the Story to others.....go for it, it seems after all the theatre, it is there for the taking.

I have seen plenty of posts about them not getting this and that but don't you think they didn't have a realistic view of what they would have to throw in at the end? seems they played a blinder that has the ERG's lawyers, IDS, Mogg, all of them, leaving very pleased.

Well done lads, made a proper ball of it in the end

Leroy42

Dr Cockhound wrote: »

First time poster after a (very) long time lurking and having waded through 330 pages of this debate on here, I'm left more than a little troubled by the blatant hate for the English, proudly displayed by a significant minority of posters.

Is it not enough that a deal has been struck that both sides are hailing as successful?

What possible personal benefit would be derived by the economic failure of the United Kingdom?

Can you link some examples of this blatant hatred for the English?

That is quite a serious charge to level at the posters on this thread.

The deal is not successful by any measure against what was promised during the referendum. It is successful compared to no deal, but that was never offered do is a false comparison.

Leroy42

cryptocurrency wrote: »

We are getting desperate here with the speculation. We had 4 years of back and for, mocking and laughing at May make a fool of the Brits and then the WA they signed up too....Now, at the end of it all....I look online and outside of the odd comment of "the UK will be weaker" or rubbish like that, I am looking to see through the soundbites like "there are no winners here" and see who is happy and who is not...seems the panto villains such as Farage, Boris, IDS, the ERG, The Daily Express, The Daily Mail, Darren Grimes (insert a.n.other) are all delighted and the remainers, Europeans, EU negotiators, even Neale Richmond, have all done very quiet...This can't possibly be a win. All the talk, all the bluster, all the performance and the final message is Farage and Co walking off into the sunset with smiles and what they wanted.

Moral of the Story to others.....go for it, it seems after all the theatre, it is there for the taking.

I have seen plenty of posts about them not getting this and that but don't you think they didn't have a realistic view of what they would have to throw in at the end? seems they played a blinder that has the ERG's lawyers, IDS, Mogg, all of them, leaving very pleased.

Well done lads, made a proper ball of it in the end

Really, you are basing your judgement on the likes of IDS and the Mail? These are the same people that were aghast at TMs deal, congratulated Johnson for the historic WA, then blasted that very same WA as a disgrace.

The EU don't need to crow about it, no point being a sore winner and possibly antagonising the likes of IDS etc.

Let them convince each other how amazing they did, how 4 years of reduced investment was worth it. How the loss in value of sterling was worth it. How all the extra costs were worth it.

This is a deal that simply must get passed in HoC. As poor as the deal is, they are all aware how cathostropic a no deal would be.

It was always the plan to give HoC as little time as possible to review the deal and offer up only two possibilities. Ask yourself why is that? Why, if taking back control, sovereignty is so important, why they are refusing to offer any level of control?

FrancieBrady

cryptocurrency wrote: »

We are getting desperate here with the speculation. We had 4 years of back and for, mocking and laughing at May make a fool of the Brits and then the WA they signed up too....Now, at the end of it all....I look online and outside of the odd comment of "the UK will be weaker" or rubbish like that, I am looking to see through the soundbites like "there are no winners here" and see who is happy and who is not...seems the panto villains such as Farage, Boris, IDS, the ERG, The Daily Express, The Daily Mail, Darren Grimes (insert a.n.other) are all delighted and the remainers, Europeans, EU negotiators, even Neale Richmond, have all done very quiet...This can't possibly be a win. All the talk, all the bluster, all the performance and the final message is Farage and Co walking off into the sunset with smiles and what they wanted.

Moral of the Story to others.....go for it, it seems after all the theatre, it is there for the taking.

I have seen plenty of posts about them not getting this and that but don't you think they didn't have a realistic view of what they would have to throw in at the end? seems they played a blinder that has the ERG's lawyers, IDS, Mogg, all of them, leaving very pleased.

Well done lads, made a proper ball of it in the end

A bit like The Usual Suspects quote...''The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist. And like that... he is gone.''

The greatest trick the EU pulled was to convince the Farage's Erg's etc that they were getting a great deal...and like that the UK is gone to fade away from the world stage.

That is what will happen now, they will just fade away even more, the next stage in the end of empire. That is sad for them on so many levels, really really sad.

timetogo1

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A bit like The Usual Suspects quote...''The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist. And like that... he is gone.''

The greatest trick the EU pulled was to convince the Farage's Erg's etc that they were getting a great deal...and like that the UK is gone to fade away from the world stage.

That is what will happen now, they will just fade away even more, the next stage in the end of empire. That is sad for them on so many levels, really really sad.

In fairness Boris and co will do all the convincing on the UK public / parliament. Just like he did with the withdrawal agreement. It was fantastic, best thing ever, until it wasn't. There was no selling by the EU for that.

cryptocurrency

All very optimistic guys. IDS says their lawyers won't miss anything this time and if they give it the green light they are the clear winners.

First Up

cryptocurrency wrote:

All very optimistic guys. IDS says their lawyers won't miss anything this time and if they give it the green light they are the clear winners.

Lawyers and IDS don't decide where business is done. If UK suppliers can't guarantee their products meet EU standards and that they won't be stuck in queues on the M20, customers in the EU will put their business elsewhere.

Dyr

Dr Cockhound wrote: »

First time poster after a (very) long time lurking and having waded through 330 pages of this debate on here, I'm left more than a little troubled by the blatant hate for the English, proudly displayed by a significant minority of posters.

Is it not enough that a deal has been struck that both sides are hailing as successful?

What possible personal benefit would be derived by the economic failure of the United Kingdom?

It's more a weird hatred for the fact that the Brits want out of the EU rather than the Brits themselves.

Expect that to intensify as it appears the Brits didnt do too badly in the horse trading even though the EU was meant to be holding all the cards

cryptocurrency

Bambi wrote: »

It's more a weird hatred for the fact that the Brits want out of the EU rather than the Brits themselves.

Expect that to intensify as it appears the Brits didnt do too badly in the horse trading even though the EU was meant to be holding all the cards

The fact the came out this well and are able to gloat is an utter failure of the EU team.
If they can't win these battles with all the cards then what hope do they have. I am starting to slowly dislike the EU now too...much more so since they lost this battle,

First Up

Bambi wrote:

Expect that to intensify as it appears the Brits didnt do too badly in the horse trading even though the EU was meant to be holding all the cards

It isn't poker. The only horse trading that matters is UK companies desperately trying to re-assure their EU customers (that make up 43% of their business) that they can continue to deliver to standard and on time, without the guarantees and protections they had while in the Single Market.

swampgas

Weird hatred, huh?

The "weird hatred" seems to be a specialty of the English though? Weird hatred towards Europe, with British politicians throwing insults like "EUSSR" and worse about. Weird fixations with WW2 and Spitfires and Blitz spirit. Threats to starve the Irish, who should "know their place". Weirdly nasty tabloids filling their readers with toxic hatred.

Brexit is more about jealousy and resentment of other EU countries, and wishing the EU destroyed, than it is about some vague notion of sovereignty. Farage is the poster boy for this, he delighted in being insulting to all about him in the EP. And many Brits loved him for doing so.

So yes, there is a lot of hatred going on and most of it is coming from Brexitland.

ancapailldorcha

Bambi wrote: »

It's more a weird hatred for the fact that the Brits want out of the EU rather than the Brits themselves.

Expect that to intensify as it appears the Brits didnt do too badly in the horse trading even though the EU was meant to be holding all the cards

It really isn't. It's contempt for how the whole thing has been conducted from the deceit, the xenophobia and the incompetence of the whole British establishment to the inane prattling on and on about fish while this farce threatens to dent the Irish economy.

Did they get the easiest trade deal ever with all of the cherries? No. It's got sweet bugger all. How on earth is this a win, exactly? Manufacturing, or what remains of it will be seriously and probably terminally disrupted, service exporters now have to comply fully on WTO terms with legislation they have no say in in their biggest market and free movement is coming to an end but that's ok because we're not in a pandemic and the health service isn't one fifth European and plenty of people are clamouring to be minimum wage care home employees.

FrancieBrady

Bambi wrote: »

It's more a weird hatred for the fact that the Brits want out of the EU rather than the Brits themselves.

Expect that to intensify as it appears the Brits didnt do too badly in the horse trading even though the EU was meant to be holding all the cards

Who cares how they do now?
That's were we are at. The UK will fade away as a concern. Nobody will care what they say as the world will move on without them. The EU will do something to move the union forward and you will hear ever weaker moaning and complaint from the UK...but who will care what they think?
They have removed themselves and the British public should remember who it was who did that.

Dyr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who cares how they do now?
That's were we are at. The UK will fade away as a concern. Nobody will care what they say as the world will move on without them. The EU will do something to move the union forward and you will hear ever weaker moaning and complaint from the UK...but who will care what they think?
They have removed themselves and the British public should remember who it was who did that.

Maybe they will, but I suspect not, or at least not to the degree that you're hoping for. My concern is entirely for how this shakes out in Ireland.

Akrasia

Scoondal wrote: »

The Scotland independance vote was "a once in a generation" vote. The UK government was already throwing shapes in the EU about giving them x,y and z or they would leave. Scots voters were well aware of the possibility of UK leaving EU. They voted to stay within UK regardless of the threats of the UK government to leave EU.
They had their vote and Scotland's true allegiance was exposed.

That’s some nice gaslighting there. I remember all of the debates and arguments where an independent Scotland being kicked out of the EU were the most powerful arguments against voting to leave the UK

There was practically zero expectation that the Brexit vote would succeed during the Scottish independence campaign. There wasn’t even an announcement that the referendum would take place

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotland-decides/issues/eu-membership

Akrasia

cryptocurrency wrote: »

The fact the came out this well and are able to gloat is an utter failure of the EU team.
If they can't win these battles with all the cards then what hope do they have. I am starting to slowly dislike the EU now too...much more so since they lost this battle,

The gloating won’t age well. The Tory Government forgot to build the infrastructure necessary to process the customs declarations before leaving the customs Union. It will still be a Sh1t Show in a few days time. Brexit didn’t win anything for anybody other than a few kleptocrats who managed to make a killing on government contracts and currency manipulation

FrancieBrady

Bambi wrote: »

Maybe they will, but I suspect not, or at least not to the degree that you're hoping for. My concern is entirely for how this shakes out in Ireland.

We'll move on...we'll win some on the EU front and lose some. The way it was always going to be and was meant to be. A continuation of the give and take that has ultimately made here a much much better place to live even in my lifetime (Too close to 60 years for comfort)
We'll continue to dilute our dependency on one economy, which is always a good thing.